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Anonymous
November 13, 2004 9:32:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi.

Does Fork copy the kicker part of a spell being played? Is this the same
with buyback and splice?

Can you splice the same spell onto an arcane spell multiple times? In the
prerelease my friend says they were doing this.

When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the equipment
end up?

If my opponent has a Karakas in play, and I play a Karakas, can my opponent
respond by returning to my hand a legendary creature I have in play, before
both Karakases go to the graveyard?

Thanks
--Jimmy

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Anonymous
November 13, 2004 10:15:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:32:17 GMT, Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> wrote:
>Does Fork copy the kicker part of a spell being played? Is this the same
>with buyback and splice?

Fork copies whether an additional cost was paid, whether an alternate cost
was paid (if it matters), and any other decisions made on announcement as
well (503.10). So a copy made with Fork knows whether Kicker or Buyback was
paid, what the size of an X is, what mode was chosen, which side of a split
spell was chosen, etc. Splice copies the spliced-on card's text onto the spell
text, and copy effects copy other copy effects' effects, so Forking a spell
that had text spliced onto it copies the spliced-on text too.

>Can you splice the same spell onto an arcane spell multiple times? In the
>prerelease my friend says they were doing this.

Only if you have the card you're trying to Splice onto the spell in your
hand multiple times. You reveal all the cards you want to Splice onto the
spell at once; you do not reveal one card, splice it on, reveal one card,
splice it on, etc. So to splice three Glacial Rays onto an Arcane spell,
you MUST have three Glacial Ray -cards- in your hand (or more, of course).

>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the equipment
>end up?

It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local enchantment
to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place it can
actually move, the permanent stays where it was.

>If my opponent has a Karakas in play, and I play a Karakas, can my opponent
>respond by returning to my hand a legendary creature I have in play, before
>both Karakases go to the graveyard?

No. Both will go to the graveyard as state-based effects are checked for;
furthermore, since playing a land does NOT use the stack, opponent doesn't
get any sort of "chance to respond after he sees what land is being played
but before it comes into play" either. Both Karakases are gone before you
get priority after playing yours; he won't have priority until after you
_pass_ priority. So no, he can't use his "before you play yours", as he won't
know you're playing yours in advance, and _you_, not he, will have priority
at the time you play yours.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:27:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's @n!
> Hi.
>
> Does Fork copy the kicker part of a spell being played? Is this the same
> with buyback and splice?

All of the things you mention are rules text and/or choices made when
the spell was played, and they would indeed get copied.

503.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of
the original object's characteristics (name, mana cost, color, type,
supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, and toughness)
and, for an object on the stack, choices made when playing it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will
affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the
values that are printed on the object, as modified by other copy
effects, plus any values set for face-down spells or permanents. Other
effects (including type-changing effects) and counters are not copied.

> Can you splice the same spell onto an arcane spell multiple times? In the
> prerelease my friend says they were doing this.

No. You need to reveal all cards you're splicing at the same time, and
you only get one chance to do this. You can splice more than one card
onto the same spell, even more than one card with the same name, but you
need multiple copies of the card to do this. Probably this is what your
friend saw, and he just misunderstood it.

> When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
> opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the equipment
> end up?

The whole ability is countered and it stays where it was. It does not,
for example, unequip the first creature, find its target missing, and
end up in play not equipping anything.

> If my opponent has a Karakas in play, and I play a Karakas, can my opponent
> respond by returning to my hand a legendary creature I have in play, before
> both Karakases go to the graveyard?

No. Before either of you can play anything, both are destroyed by a
state-based effect.
Related resources
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 12:26:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Does Fork copy the kicker part of a spell being played? Is this the same
> with buyback and splice?

Fork copies everything about the spell (except that it makes it red,
since Fork says so). Whatever kicker or buyback or spliced stuff is on the
spell is copied also.

> Can you splice the same spell onto an arcane spell multiple times? In the
> prerelease my friend says they were doing this.

No. You can splice multiple Glacial Rays onto one spell, but you can't
splice a single Glacial Ray multiple times onto one spell.

> When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
> opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
equipment
> end up?

The equip ability will be countered for lack of target, so it will
continue to equip the first creature.

> If my opponent has a Karakas in play, and I play a Karakas, can my
opponent
> respond by returning to my hand a legendary creature I have in play,
before
> both Karakases go to the graveyard?

Nope. Playing a land doesn't use the stack, so once you declare you're
playing your Karakas, it's immediately in play. Then state-based effects are
checked before either person gets priority, at which point both Karakases
bite the dust.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 11:42:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
>>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
>>equipment
>>end up?
>
> It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local
> enchantment
> to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place it
> can
> actually move, the permanent stays where it was.
>
Is this the same for local enchantments moved by Crown of the Ages? And is
the movement a targetted effect?
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 6:17:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's @n!
> >>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
> >>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
> >>equipment
> >>end up?
> >
> > It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local
> > enchantment
> > to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place it
> > can
> > actually move, the permanent stays where it was.
> >
> Is this the same for local enchantments moved by Crown of the Ages? And is
> the movement a targetted effect?

Crown of the Ages
{2}
Artifact
{4}, {T}: Move target enchantment enchanting a creature to another
creature.

Since this uses the word "target", it is indeed targeted, and for that
reason, it does indeed work in the way Dave (and I) outlined.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 11:48:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Jeff Heikkinen" <no.way@jose.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c01dc83b6279d31989fb6@news.easynews.com...
> Oh no! It's @n!
>> >>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
>> >>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
>> >>equipment
>> >>end up?
>> >
>> > It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local
>> > enchantment
>> > to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place
>> > it
>> > can
>> > actually move, the permanent stays where it was.
>> >
>> Is this the same for local enchantments moved by Crown of the Ages? And
>> is
>> the movement a targetted effect?
>
> Crown of the Ages
> {2}
> Artifact
> {4}, {T}: Move target enchantment enchanting a creature to another
> creature.
>
> Since this uses the word "target", it is indeed targeted, and for that
> reason, it does indeed work in the way Dave (and I) outlined.

Oh. I actually meant does it target the second creature, but it appears it
doesn't. So I could move the enchantment to an untargettable creature?
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 3:04:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> sent:
> Hi.

Hi. I can see a couple of replies already, but I wanted to explain
things a little differently just in case it helps.

> Does Fork copy the kicker part of a spell being played? Is this the same
> with buyback and splice?

Fork {R}{R} Instant
/ Put a copy of target instant or sorcery spell onto the stack, except
that it copies Fork's color and you may choose new targets for the
copy.

When Fork resolves, you make a copy of a spell. You copy everything
about that spell except for colour and targets. So, if the original
spell has a kicker cost paid, so does the copy. If the original spell
has buyback paid, so does the copy. And if text was spliced onto the
original spell, it is also present on the copy. You don't pay extra
for the Fork to make any of this happen, and you can't choose not to
copy, for example, the fact that the kicker was paid. Note that a Fork
of a spell with buyback doesn't mean that the Fork goes back to your
hand.

> Can you splice the same spell onto an arcane spell multiple times? In the
> prerelease my friend says they were doing this.

You only get one chance to splice when playing a spell. At that point,
you reveal all the cards you're going to splice, and say what order you
are adding their text in. If you want to put two copies of the Glacial
Ray text onto a spell, you'd best have two Glacial Ray cards in hand
to copy the text from.

> When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
> opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the equipment
> end up?

With a "move" effect, if you find that you can't perform the move, you
simply don't. Whatever you were going to move stays right where it is.

> If my opponent has a Karakas in play, and I play a Karakas, can my opponent
> respond by returning to my hand a legendary creature I have in play, before
> both Karakases go to the graveyard?

You can't respond to the playing of a land the same way that you can
respond to things that go on the stack. The effect that puts the
Karakases into the graveyard is a state-based effect, so you can't
respond to that, either. It happens right as you're getting priority
after your Karakas comes into play.

--
-- zoe
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 4:11:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> wrote:

> Oh. I actually meant does it target the second creature, but it appears it
> doesn't. So I could move the enchantment to an untargettable creature?

Certainly.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 11:01:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> wrote:
>>>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
>>>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
>>>equipment end up?
>>
>> It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local enchantment
>> to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place it can
>> actually move, the permanent stays where it was.
>>
>Is this the same for local enchantments moved by Crown of the Ages?

Yes. NOTE, however, that you do NOT choose where to move the local enchantment
until the Crown's ability is -resolving-. So the only way it can stay where
it is is if there _are_ no other creatures it can move ti.

>And is the movement a targetted effect?

Yes, BUT: it does not target either of the creatures involved. It only targets
the enchantment that's being moved. This is why you don't check "what creature
will this move to?" until resolution.

(The full target specification is 'target enchantment enchanting a creature'
- so as long as this is true on announcement, and true on resolution, you're
fine. The enchantment doesn't have to be on the SAME creature on resolution
that it was on at announcement; in other words, opponent Crowning the same
enchantment you are Crowning, in response, doesn't stop your Crown from being
able to move the enchantment.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 11:04:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> wrote:
>> Crown of the Ages 2 Artifact
>> 4,Tap: Move target enchantment enchanting a creature to another creature.
>>
>> Since this uses the word "target", it is indeed targeted, and for that
>> reason, it does indeed work in the way Dave (and I) outlined.
>
>Oh. I actually meant does it target the second creature, but it appears it
>doesn't.

Correct.

>So I could move the enchantment to an untargettable creature?

No creature has "untargettable". (Caveat: I don't know what may turn up in
Unhinged.) But yes, you can move it to a creature that can't be the target
of abilities. The enchantment itself is "enchanting" what it's on, and is
"attached to" it, but isn't "targetting" it.

You -cannot-, however, move it to a creature that can't be -enchanted- by
it. Protection-from is the most common way this issue arises, but Anti-Magic
Aura, Consecrate Land, Guardian Beast, and Tetravite tokens can also cause
this.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 11:21:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's Jimmy Wong!
>
> "Jeff Heikkinen" <no.way@jose.org> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1c01dc83b6279d31989fb6@news.easynews.com...
> > Oh no! It's @n!
> >> >>When "moving" an equipment from one creature to a second creature, my
> >> >>opponent destroys the second creature in response? Where does the
> >> >>equipment
> >> >>end up?
> >> >
> >> > It stays where it was. If you try to move an Equipment or a local
> >> > enchantment
> >> > to somewhere and find on resolution that that somewhere isn't a place
> >> > it
> >> > can
> >> > actually move, the permanent stays where it was.
> >> >
> >> Is this the same for local enchantments moved by Crown of the Ages? And
> >> is
> >> the movement a targetted effect?
> >
> > Crown of the Ages
> > {2}
> > Artifact
> > {4}, {T}: Move target enchantment enchanting a creature to another
> > creature.
> >
> > Since this uses the word "target", it is indeed targeted, and for that
> > reason, it does indeed work in the way Dave (and I) outlined.
>
> Oh. I actually meant does it target the second creature, but it appears it
> doesn't. So I could move the enchantment to an untargettable creature?

Ah. In that case, you're correct; it does not target the second creature
and thus could move an enchantment onto, say, a Blastoderm. (You could
even move an enchantment onto a creature with Protection from the
enchantment's colour, though the enchantment would promptly "fall off"
in that case.) This is the classic example of the difference between
targeting and enchanting.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 11:21:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:21:44 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>Ah. In that case, you're correct; it does not target the second creature
>and thus could move an enchantment onto, say, a Blastoderm.

Yes. But:

>(You could
>even move an enchantment onto a creature with Protection from the
>enchantment's colour, though the enchantment would promptly "fall off"
>in that case.)

....no, you can't; you can't move it to something it can't actually -enchant-,
says the Move entry in the Glossary.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!