Limited Tournament Sideboarding

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Not a Magic game rule, per se, but a Magic tournament floor rule.

I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
for sideboarding in a Limited event were.

My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
after that game.

His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.

The only reference I can find in the Floor Rules *seems* to support
me, but not explicitly:

"132. Sideboard Use
Any drafted or opened cards not used in a player's Limited deck
function as his or her sideboard. Players may not look at their
sideboards during a game.

Before the beginning of the second or subsequent game in a match,
players may change the composition of their decks by exchanging cards
from their decks for cards in their sideboards. Players can also
request additional land at this time. There are no restrictions on the
number of cards a player may exchange this way as long as the main
deck contains at least forty cards. Cards do not need to be exchanged
on a one-for-one basis."

The part about "before the beginning of the second or subsequent game
in a match" implies that you can't do it "before the first game." I'm
also confident that this is how MTGO works, and how the tournaments he
had attended *should have* worked. (We then got off into a discussion
about "written rules" vs. "enforced rules," and which ones actually
matter more...)
-- pseudosoldier

 

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"pseudosoldier" <pseudosoldier@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41a7ed1c.31048585@news-server.hot.rr.com...
> Not a Magic game rule, per se, but a Magic tournament floor rule.
>
> I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
> for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
>
> My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
> for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
> after that game.
>
> His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
> scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.
>
> The only reference I can find in the Floor Rules *seems* to support
> me, but not explicitly:
>
> "132. Sideboard Use
> Any drafted or opened cards not used in a player's Limited deck
> function as his or her sideboard. Players may not look at their
> sideboards during a game.
>
> Before the beginning of the second or subsequent game in a match,
> players may change the composition of their decks by exchanging cards
> from their decks for cards in their sideboards. Players can also
> request additional land at this time. There are no restrictions on the
> number of cards a player may exchange this way as long as the main
> deck contains at least forty cards. Cards do not need to be exchanged
> on a one-for-one basis."
>
> The part about "before the beginning of the second or subsequent game
> in a match" implies that you can't do it "before the first game." I'm
> also confident that this is how MTGO works, and how the tournaments he
> had attended *should have* worked. (We then got off into a discussion
> about "written rules" vs. "enforced rules," and which ones actually
> matter more...)

Well, first things first. Your deck has to be the same at the start of every
match. You can't use a sideboard until after game 1 (Wishes etc
notwithstanding). Thus, there is no "pre-sideboarding". Now imagine this:
You go to a pre-release tournament. The group you're in has, say, 64 people.
This is the third round, and nobody's dropped. How many people are you going
to scout out and try and set your deck in advance for it? Even if you have a
good idea that you're 2-0, so you're going to be facing someone else who's
2-0.. how many 2-0's are there going to be? Thus, it's pointless because you
might not get matched against who you expect to be matched against.

I may not be a judge, but I've heard this being dropped in tournaments time
and time again. Your deck MUST have the SAME initial configuration (apart
from eg shuffling) in Game 1 of the 6th round as it did in Game 1 of the
first round, and each Game 1 in between. Only after each Game 1 can you
access your sideboard.

Erich

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

pseudosoldier@hotmail.com (pseudosoldier) writes:
> Not a Magic game rule, per se, but a Magic tournament floor rule.
>
> I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
> for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
>
> My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
> for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
> after that game.
>
> His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
> scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.
>
> The only reference I can find in the Floor Rules *seems* to support
> me, but not explicitly:
>
> [UTR 132]
>
> The part about "before the beginning of the second or subsequent game
> in a match" implies that you can't do it "before the first game."

Yes. Technically, you should restore your deck to its original
configuration before each match, and not "pre-sideboard". However, at
any event that I've been to that hasn't had deck registration (which
is basically several prereleases and 1 draft FNM), there was no
enforcement, and if you asked the judge he said that you could change
your deck between matches.

Basically, without deck registration, there isn't a way to enforce the
rule, so it's really not fair to those who would follow the rule if
those who would not have no way to be caught.

Also, the Penalty Guildlines have this to say about the infraction
(note the Philosophy section in particular):

,----[ Penalty Guidelines ]
| 114. Procedural Error—Failure to Desideboard
|
| Definition
| Players are considered to have committed this infraction when they
| don't return their decks to their original configurations before
| presenting their decks to their opponents at the beginning of the
| first game of a match. This infraction applies only to games that
| use sideboards.
|
| Example
| (A) A player in a Magic tournament leaves a Circle of Protection:
| Red in her deck from the previous round.
|
| Philosophy
| In this situation, a game loss is a fair penalty. Tournaments that
| do not use decklists should not use this offense unless some method
| of registering sideboards is used.
|
| Penalty
| Procedural Error—Failure to Desideboard
| All Levels
| Game
`----

So, it sounds to me like you *should* restore your deck each round,
but there's no basis for giving a penalty based on that if deck
registration isn't being used. So, you might as well allow deck
changes in that case (and in the casual limited tournaments I run, I
do allow them now).

(And as Jeff Heikkinen pointed out in his post, in a more-casual
tourney without deck registration, it's more of a chance to fix
mistakes in your deck-building than a chance to scout people out and
tune your deck to them.)

However, I think that it would be nice to hear something Official
about it, as I've been kind of curious about this topic for some time
now.

> I'm also confident that this is how MTGO works,

Well, yes, but MTGO "registers" your deck and sideboard for you
automatically, and can enforce those rules easily. (At least, a lot
easier than a physical tournament can.)

--
Peter C.
"This document MUST be secured in a locked cabinet to prevent it from
being disposed off with the trash."
-- RFC 3251, "Electricity over IP"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's pseudosoldier!
> Not a Magic game rule, per se, but a Magic tournament floor rule.
>
> I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
> for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
>
> My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
> for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
> after that game.
>
> His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
> scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.
>
> The only reference I can find in the Floor Rules *seems* to support
> me, but not explicitly:
>
> "132. Sideboard Use
> Any drafted or opened cards not used in a player's Limited deck
> function as his or her sideboard. Players may not look at their
> sideboards during a game.
>
> Before the beginning of the second or subsequent game in a match,
> players may change the composition of their decks by exchanging cards
> from their decks for cards in their sideboards. Players can also
> request additional land at this time. There are no restrictions on the
> number of cards a player may exchange this way as long as the main
> deck contains at least forty cards. Cards do not need to be exchanged
> on a one-for-one basis."
>
> The part about "before the beginning of the second or subsequent game
> in a match" implies that you can't do it "before the first game." I'm
> also confident that this is how MTGO works, and how the tournaments he
> had attended *should have* worked. (We then got off into a discussion
> about "written rules" vs. "enforced rules," and which ones actually
> matter more...)

I've seen it done both ways. At tournaments where you had to register
your deck (and I don't know if there's any other kind anymore, but back
then there was) they generally try to enforce a rule that you must
return to your original deck configuration for the beginning of each
match.

At tournaments WITHOUT deck registration, however, they don't enforce
this rule (as there is really no way to do so) and it becomes a rather
common sight to see people going through their decks after each round,
trying to determine whether they made any deck building mistakes, and if
so, how to fix them given their card pool.

Personally I appreciate the opportunity to rethink things, not so much
to pre-sideboard as to give me a chance to correct any errors I made. I
see nothing unfair about this provided everyone else is given the same
opportunity.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. (pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org) wrote:
: pseudosoldier@hotmail.com (pseudosoldier) writes:
: > I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
: > for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
: >
: > My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
: > for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
: > after that game.
: >
: > His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
: > scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.

The rules support you, on paper.

: Yes. Technically, you should restore your deck to its original
: configuration before each match, and not "pre-sideboard". However, at
: any event that I've been to that hasn't had deck registration (which
: is basically several prereleases and 1 draft FNM), there was no
: enforcement, and if you asked the judge he said that you could change
: your deck between matches.

: Basically, without deck registration, there isn't a way to enforce the
: rule, so it's really not fair to those who would follow the rule if
: those who would not have no way to be caught.

What I'd like to see here is the rule changed so as to differentiate
between Constructed and Limited. In Constructed, have it like it is
now, as decks are pretty much always registered. But in Limited,
register a player's entire pool of cards but allow the deck at the
start of *any* game to be any subset of that pool. This way, judges
can still check to see if cards are in a deck that shouldn't be there,
and players can tweak their decks as the tournament goes along.

But, I'm just a lone voice in the wilderness...anyone else think
this idea has any merit?


Keith "and this rule goes right out the window if they ever bring
back ante".

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

pseudosoldier <pseudosoldier@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Not a Magic game rule, per se, but a Magic tournament floor rule.
>
>I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
>for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
>
>My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
>for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
>after that game.

Correct. In that, it's just like sideboarding for Constructed. The differences
are twofold: a) you are not limited to swapping out one card for one other card
on each swap - your deck need not stay the same size after sideboarding; and
b) your sideboard is "all the cards you got at the Limited event which you did
not use in your deck", not "15 cards".

>His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
>scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.

No. You may NOT EVER do this. See rules 114 and 122 in the Magic Floor
Rules: "The deck and sideboard must each be returned to their original
compositions before the first game of each match. Thus, cards transferred from
a players deck to his or her sideboard, and vice versa, must be returned before
the player begins a new match.". Rule 132 confirms this. The only other
difference is that for _draft_ (not Sealed) Limited, players may ADD basic
lands to their sideboards at any time between games, and in Sealed (not draft)
Limited, players may swap out (one for one) nonfoil basic lands for other
basic lands.

>The only reference I can find in the Floor Rules *seems* to support
>me, but not explicitly:

It's listed up before it goes into the separate rules for Constructed and
Limited; point him at 122. Similarly, the rules for Limited also apply to
Team Limited, so are not entirely repeated under that section; etc.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 27 Nov 2004 12:39:53 -0800, uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith
Piddington) wrote:

>Peter Cooper Jr. (pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org) wrote:
>: pseudosoldier@hotmail.com (pseudosoldier) writes:
>: > I had a disagreement with a friend this morning about what the rules
>: > for sideboarding in a Limited event were.
>: >
>: > My stance: Your deck had to be returned to its original configuration
>: > for Game One of each Match. You could sideboard as much as you wanted
>: > after that game.
>: >
>: > His stance: You can sideboard whenever you like, which allows you to
>: > scout your opponent and set up your deck appropriately ahead of time.
>
>The rules support you, on paper.
>
Which is what I thought we were arguing, and then the discussion
turned towards written rules vs. enforced rules (and not just for
Magic).

>What I'd like to see here is the rule changed so as to differentiate
>between Constructed and Limited. In Constructed, have it like it is
>now, as decks are pretty much always registered. But in Limited,
>register a player's entire pool of cards but allow the deck at the
>start of *any* game to be any subset of that pool. This way, judges
>can still check to see if cards are in a deck that shouldn't be there,
>and players can tweak their decks as the tournament goes along.
>
>But, I'm just a lone voice in the wilderness...anyone else think
>this idea has any merit?
>
I wouldn't have any issue with it if they did change it. I just have
personal issues with making a rule, not enforcing it, and it becoming
de facto "okay" to not follow *because* no one is enforcing it...

-- pseudosoldier