Comes into play

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello.

Is there any difference between cards that say:

1. Whenever ~ comes into play, do foo.

and

2. As ~ comes into play, do foo.

If so, can you give examples of where this difference is significant.

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jimmy Wong wrote:

> Hello.
>
> Is there any difference between cards that say:
>
> 1. Whenever ~ comes into play, do foo.

This is a triggered ability which goes on the stack.

> and
>
> 2. As ~ comes into play, do foo.
>
> If so, can you give examples of where this difference is significant.

418.2. Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do
so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don't wait
until the permanent is in play and then change it. Because such
effects apply as the permanent comes into play, apply them before
determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger
when it comes into play.

For example if Clone had a triggered ability doing the copying it
would be put into the gravyard for having a toughness of zero before
it would become a copy.

--
David

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's Jimmy Wong!
> Hello.
>
> Is there any difference between cards that say:
>
> 1. Whenever ~ comes into play, do foo.
>
> and
>
> 2. As ~ comes into play, do foo.
>
> If so, can you give examples of where this difference is significant.

Yes, they are different, and yes, the difference can be important. The
first is a triggered ability, the second is simply part of the process
of putting the card in question into play. Triggered abilities go on the
stack independently of their source (and can therefore be responded to)
after the card comes into play (or whatever their trigger happens to
be); none of this is true for "As so-and-so comes into play". The rule
is that anything with "When", "Whenever" or "At" (as in "At the
beginning of your upkeep" or "At end of turn" ) is a triggered ability;
anything that does not involve one of those words is not a triggered
ability, it's something else.

(Note that prior to the Sixth Edition rules, there wouldn't have been as
much difference as triggered abilities couldn't be responded to anyway;
I don't think they *had* the "as" wording back then).

For example, Nekrataal says in part "When ~ comes into play, destroy
target non-black creature". Because this says "when", this ability goes
on the stack after the 'taal comes into play; you can respond by, for
example, returning the targeted creature to your hand, and it will be
safe.

If this said "As Nekrataal comes into play", this would not be possible.
You could bounce your creatures *before* the 'taal came into play, of
course, but since the target would not be chosen until the 'taal was in
play, the other player would be able to choose a different target.
(Note: this latter part is strictly an example, they wouldn't word a
real card with that sort of ability this way.)

Another good example - maybe a better one, even - is Clone. As presently
worded, Clone is a 0/0 creature with "As Clone comes into play, you may
choose a creature in play. If you do, Clone comes into play as a copy of
that creature.". With this wording, you pick a creature as part of
putting Clone into play, and by the time the game gets a chance to take
notice of the Clone, it already has that creature's characteristics,
including, one hopes, a non-zero toughness.

If this said "When Clone comes into play" it would be completely useless
without something like Sunken City or Glorious Anthem; before you could
even choose a creature, Clone would die from having zero toughness.
(Moreover, the second sentence of the ability would make no sense as
worded, since Clone would already have come into play by the time the
game saw it. It would say something like "Clone becomes a copy..."
instead.)

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jimmy Wong <j4389130@telus.net> wrote:
>Is there any difference between cards that say:
>1. Whenever ~ comes into play, do foo.
>and
>2. As ~ comes into play, do foo.

Yes, there is a great deal of difference.

The former, because it starts with "When", "Whenever", or "At", is a triggered
ability. Triggered abilities use the stack, and can be responded to before they
resolve, and could even get countered; the permanent will have been in play a
short time before Foo can happen at all.

The latter is not a triggered ability, or activated ability; it does not use
the stack. It is done as part of the process of putting the permanent into
play, just like "comes into play with", "comes into play as", and 'comes into
play tapped' are. There will be no time where the permanent is in play but
Foo has not yet been done; doing Foo cannot be responded to (though whatever
is putting the permanent into play in the first place can have been responded
to already before it gets into play).

>If so, can you give examples of where this difference is significant.

Um, every time something comes into play that says one or the other? There
is a great deal of difference between the two.

Dave
--
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It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
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