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Naked Singularity and Duallands

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Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:24:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

How does Naked Singularity affect Taiga (and what is does)?
And more important, why?

--
thanks,
David
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:24:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> writes:
> How does Naked Singularity affect Taiga (and what is does)?

,----[ Oracle ]
| Naked Singularity
| {5}
| Artifact
| Cumulative upkeep {3}
| If tapped for mana, Plains produce {R}, Islands produce {G}, Swamps
| produce {W}, Mountains produce {U}, and Forests produce {B} instead
| of their normal type.
|
| Taiga
| Land -- Mountain Forest
`----

I'm not 100% sure here, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.

You can play its Mountain-ability to get {U}, or you can play its
Forest-ability to get {B}.

> And more important, why?

Since Taiga is a Mountain and a Forest, it gets the abilities of each
basic land type. Naked Singularity changes what those
abilities-native-to-basic-lands-given-in-212.6d do.

Although now that I look at it, it may change what a land with a basic
land type does for *any* of its mana abilities that include {T} in the
activation cost, which is likely the source of your confusion. I
suspect I have the right answer, although I'm less certain about
*why*.

--
Peter C.
"I have discovered a strange level of sleep deprivation in which I do
not randomly fall asleep and yet am completely incapable of
intelligent thought..." -- Jessi
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:24:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:24:28 +0100, David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>How does Naked Singularity affect Taiga (and what is does)?
>And more important, why?

Hopefully the following will address both. Note that Taiga's text currently is
much different than any printing of it.

Taiga Land -- Mountain Forest

That's it - that's all it says in Oracle. It doesn't need to specify any
abilities because the rules do, since it has basic land types.

Naked Singularity 5 Artifact
Cumulative upkeep 3 / If tapped for mana, Plains produce R, Islands produce G,
Swamps produce W, Mountains produce U, and Forests produce B instead of their
normal type.

This has a replacement effect that applies to Taiga in two different ways,
which are actually mutually exclusive: it says that when tapped for mana, it
produces "U instead of its normal type" and "B instead of its normal type",
because it is a Mountain and a Forest. Effectively, this means that the
controller of the Forest - the player whose permanent is affected - decides
which order to apply them in, and can have it produce U when tapped for mana,
or B when tapped for mana (the player can't opt for 'both at once' or 'half
a point of each' or other such oddities). Translated back into dual land
terms, Naked Singularity effectively makes a Taiga into a dual land that
produces mana as though it were an Underground Sea. It doesn't change its land
types, but it does change what kind of mana it produces.

Note that NS' effect is not optional - you can't "choose to ignore it". You
can't get R or G out of the Taiga while the NS is affecting it, even if it
also gains some other mana ability (such as from a Joiner Adept); the NS does
NOT say it only works on the land's "innate mana ability from being a basic
land" or anything like that.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:24:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooperjr.name> wrote:
>,----[ Oracle ]
>| Naked Singularity
>| {5}
>| Artifact
>| Cumulative upkeep {3}
>| If tapped for mana, Plains produce {R}, Islands produce {G}, Swamps
>| produce {W}, Mountains produce {U}, and Forests produce {B} instead
>| of their normal type.
>|
>| Taiga
>| Land -- Mountain Forest
>`----
>
>I'm not 100% sure here, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.
>
>You can play its Mountain-ability to get {U}, or you can play its
>Forest-ability to get {B}.

It's actually more general than that; you can use either ability to get U, or
can use either ability to get B. (NS doesn't say its replacement is limited
to a given mana ability the land may have.) But yes, those are the colors
of mana it can now give.

>Although now that I look at it, it may change what a land with a basic
>land type does for *any* of its mana abilities that include {T} in the
>activation cost, which is likely the source of your confusion. I
>suspect I have the right answer, although I'm less certain about *why*.

This is actually a correct suspicion. And the reason here is that NS is telling
the Taiga it must do two mutually exclusive things through the replacement
effect, so the controller of the affected permanent has to choose. (Since it
doesn't say it can make it produce U _and_ B, two points of mana at the same
time.) Neither 419.9a nor 419.9b quite covers this specifically, as this is
all one replacement effect - but either way one looks at it, "this is only one
replacement effect so can only be applied once, and can't do both things, so
a choice must be made, and the affected permanent's controller makes such
choices" or "this is actually five effects, one for each land type, and so
two of them can affect the Taiga, and the Taiga's controller chooses which to
apply first and which second", the Taiga's controller ends up choosing what
the end product is.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:26:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, David de Kloet wrote:

> Hi,
>
> How does Naked Singularity affect Taiga (and what is does)?
> And more important, why?

Sorry, I forgot to paste wordings:

Naked Singularity
5
Artifact
Cumulative upkeep 3
If tapped for mana, Plains produce R, Islands produce G, Swamps
produce W, Mountains produce U, and Forests produce B instead of their
normal type.


Taiga
Land -- Mountain Forest

--
David
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 11:22:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 15 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:24:28 +0100, David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> How does Naked Singularity affect Taiga (and what is does)?
>> And more important, why?
>
> Hopefully the following will address both. Note that Taiga's text currently is
> much different than any printing of it.
>
> Taiga Land -- Mountain Forest
>
> That's it - that's all it says in Oracle. It doesn't need to specify any
> abilities because the rules do, since it has basic land types.
>
> Naked Singularity 5 Artifact
> Cumulative upkeep 3 / If tapped for mana, Plains produce R, Islands produce G,
> Swamps produce W, Mountains produce U, and Forests produce B instead of their
> normal type.
>
> This has a replacement effect that applies to Taiga in two different ways,
> which are actually mutually exclusive: it says that when tapped for mana, it
> produces "U instead of its normal type" and "B instead of its normal type",
> because it is a Mountain and a Forest. Effectively, this means that the
> controller of the Forest - the player whose permanent is affected - decides
> which order to apply them in, and can have it produce U when tapped for mana,
> or B when tapped for mana (the player can't opt for 'both at once' or 'half
> a point of each' or other such oddities). Translated back into dual land
> terms, Naked Singularity effectively makes a Taiga into a dual land that
> produces mana as though it were an Underground Sea. It doesn't change its land
> types, but it does change what kind of mana it produces.

That's what I thought. So you agree that the following isn't the right
explaination (today)?

From Saturday School #54 by Rune Horvik, Saturday, November 29, 2003:

Q: If there is a Naked Singularity in play and I tap a dual land, for
example a Taiga, what color of mana do I get? If I tap the Taiga
wanting to add green mana to my mana pool, do I get black mana
instead? Likewise, if I tap the Taiga wanting to add red mana to my
mana pool, do I get blue mana instead? So, has my Taiga practically
become an Underground Sea?

A: With Naked Singularity in play, a Taiga gives blue and black mana,
which is the same as Underground Sea usually taps for. When you tap
the Taiga, you choose red or green as usual, and the color you choose
will immediately be changed to the type indicated by Naked
Singularity's replacement effect.


And what does "instead of their normal type" mean exactly? Suppose I
have a Riftstone Portal in my graveyard and use the Taiga's ability to
add {W} to my mana pool. Would the replacement effect not apply since
{W} isn't the normal type anyway? Or is it the normal type for the
ability I'm using and would it thus be replaced by either {U} or {B}?

Riftstone Portal
Land
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
As long as ~this~ is in your graveyard, lands you control have "{T}:
Add {G} or {W} to your mana pool."
--
David
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 10:31:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> It doesn't change its land
>> types, but it does change what kind of mana it produces.
>
>That's what I thought. So you agree that the following isn't the right
>explaination (today)?
>
>From Saturday School #54 by Rune Horvik, Saturday, November 29, 2003:
>
>Q: If there is a Naked Singularity in play and I tap a dual land, for
>example a Taiga, what color of mana do I get? If I tap the Taiga
>wanting to add green mana to my mana pool, do I get black mana
>instead? Likewise, if I tap the Taiga wanting to add red mana to my
>mana pool, do I get blue mana instead? So, has my Taiga practically
>become an Underground Sea?
>
>A: With Naked Singularity in play, a Taiga gives blue and black mana,
>which is the same as Underground Sea usually taps for.

It's fine to here.

>When you tap the Taiga, you choose red or green as usual, and the color you
>choose will immediately be changed to the type indicated by Naked
>Singularity's replacement effect.

This isn't quite right. "When you tap the Taiga, you choose which of its two
mana abilities to use as usual, and the mana made by the ability you chose
will be affected in two ways by NS' replacement effect. You choose (on
resolution) which kind of mana you actually get from the ability, B or U -
regardless of which ability you chose to use."

>And what does "instead of their normal type" mean exactly?

Whatever type it is trying to produce from one of its abilities resolving.
(It is possible for this to NOT be a mana ability...)

>Suppose I
>have a Riftstone Portal in my graveyard and use the Taiga's ability to
>add {W} to my mana pool. Would the replacement effect not apply since
>{W} isn't the normal type anyway? Or is it the normal type for the
>ability I'm using and would it thus be replaced by either {U} or {B}?

It is the normal type for that ability, so would get replaced. (Once it's
replaced, the new one is now "the normal type", as far as I can tell, so
would be subject to another existing replacement effect if there was one.
End result: whichever you apply last out of NS, Contamination, or Ritual
of Subdual determines what kind of mana you actually get... so you
determine on resolution, NOT on announcement, what kind of mana you get.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!