Student of Elements + Mystic Decree = Flying Tobita?

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Student of Elements & Mystic Decree are in play. I cast Lifted by Clouds on
Student of Elements. Student of Elements gains flying, and flips (it is now
Tobita).

Lifted by Clouds' effect ends at the end of the turn. Soes Tobita still have
flying, from its own flying ability? Or does it lose flying due to Mystic
Decree's effect?

I realise that timestamps may be irrelevant in this case (because of some
arcane rules about static abilities). But, in general, what is the
"timestamp" of an ability on a creature's "Flip" side: when the creature
flipped, or when it came into play? Static abilities always have timestamps,
even in cases where they are irrelevant, right?

This came up relating to a Wizard deck thread on .strategy.

-War_Pig5

card text:

Lifted by Clouds

Target creature gains flying until end of turn.
Splice onto Arcane: 1U


Student of Elements

When Student of Elements has flying, flip it.

FLIP:
Tobita, Master of Winds
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Creatures you control have flying.
3/3


Mystic Decree

All creatures lose flying and islandwalk.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

War_Pig5 <dontsendjunk2me@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Student of Elements & Mystic Decree are in play. I cast Lifted by Clouds on
> Student of Elements. Student of Elements gains flying, and flips (it is now
> Tobita).
>
> Lifted by Clouds' effect ends at the end of the turn. Soes Tobita still have
> flying, from its own flying ability? Or does it lose flying due to Mystic
> Decree's effect?

You haven't given the relative timestamps of the two permanents. If the
Mystic Decree was already in play when Student of Elements entered play,
your permanents will all get flying from Tobita's ability. If the order
was the other way around, Mystic Decree will override Tobita's ability
instead.

> I realise that timestamps may be irrelevant in this case (because of some
> arcane rules about static abilities). But, in general, what is the
> "timestamp" of an ability on a creature's "Flip" side: when the creature
> flipped, or when it came into play? Static abilities always have timestamps,
> even in cases where they are irrelevant, right?

Static abilities from permanents always have the same timestamp as the
permanent.

418.5f Continuous effects generated by static abilities have the same
timestamp as the objects that generate them.

A change in characteristics does not update the timestamp of the
permanent, even if the name is one of the characteristics that changes.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

War_Pig5 <dontsendjunk2me@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Student of Elements & Mystic Decree are in play. I cast Lifted by Clouds on
>Student of Elements. Student of Elements gains flying, and flips (it is now
>Tobita).

It still has flying, of course.

>Lifted by Clouds' effect ends at the end of the turn. Soes Tobita still have
>flying, from its own flying ability? Or does it lose flying due to Mystic
>Decree's effect?

It's still the same permanent; it just entirely changed how it looks.

>I realise that timestamps may be irrelevant in this case (because of some
>arcane rules about static abilities). But, in general, what is the
>"timestamp" of an ability on a creature's "Flip" side: when the creature
>flipped, or when it came into play? Static abilities always have timestamps,
>even in cases where they are irrelevant, right?

Static abilities always have timestamps, even when irrelevant, because you
never know when Laurie Cheers will produce an example that makes it relevant...
But yes, 418.5e/f don't have an exception for updating the timestamp when a
permanent changes what it looks like on the copy level (or, even, when it
gets a new ability from something else's _static_ ability). So while the
Lifted by Clouds, being a resolving effect, has its granted "flying"
timestamped when the spell resolves, the static ability Tobita has is
timestamped when the Student came into play.

Notice that the ability Tobita has _itself_ gives flying to each creature.
And _those_ "flying"s are from a static ability; 418.5f then tells us that
they have the Student's timestamp, by 'inheritance' as it were, also. Even
for creatures that came into play some time after the Student...

(Since timestamp is ONLY used for figuring out what order to apply continuous
effects in anyway, it's not that odd for a creature to have an ability from
something else that's "older" than the creature itself is.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Q: Are we not men? A: We are War_Pig5!
> Student of Elements & Mystic Decree are in play. I cast Lifted by Clouds on
> Student of Elements. Student of Elements gains flying, and flips (it is now
> Tobita).
>
> Lifted by Clouds' effect ends at the end of the turn. Soes Tobita still have
> flying, from its own flying ability? Or does it lose flying due to Mystic
> Decree's effect?
>
> I realise that timestamps may be irrelevant in this case (because of some
> arcane rules about static abilities). But, in general, what is the
> "timestamp" of an ability on a creature's "Flip" side: when the creature
> flipped, or when it came into play? Static abilities always have timestamps,
> even in cases where they are irrelevant, right?

418.5e An object's timestamp is the time it entered the zone it's
currently in, with three exceptions: (1) If two or more objects enter a
zone (or zones) simultaneously, the active player determines their
timestamp order at the time they enter that zone. (2) Whenever a local
enchantment or Equipment becomes attached to a permanent, the
enchantment or Equipment receives a new timestamp. (3) Permanents that
phase in keep the same timestamps they had when they phased out.

418.5f Continuous effects generated by static abilities have the same
timestamp as the objects that generate them.

*********

That should be all the relevant rules. Timestamp is not mentioned at all
in the rules for flip cards.

So, it looks like Tobita's timestamp is that of the original Student of
the Elements permanent. Thus, your creatures would keep flying only if
the Student of the Elements came into play since the Mystic Decree,
regardless of when it gets flipped.


> This came up relating to a Wizard deck thread on .strategy.
>
> -War_Pig5
>
> card text:
>
> Lifted by Clouds
>
> Target creature gains flying until end of turn.
> Splice onto Arcane: 1U
>
>
> Student of Elements
>
> When Student of Elements has flying, flip it.
>
> FLIP:
> Tobita, Master of Winds
> Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
> Creatures you control have flying.
> 3/3
>
>
> Mystic Decree
>
> All creatures lose flying and islandwalk.
>
>
>