Two Noobie Questions

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he is
blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap target
creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps his 6/6
creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking creature
(like an instant) and null the attack?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he
> is blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability
> : Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

Yes. Legality of blocks is checked only when blockers are declared. After
that it is too late. HOWEVER, note that you have a chance to use this
ability BEFORE your opponent can declare blockers, so you could declare it
an attacker, make it flying, and now your opponent can't block it.
>
> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap
> target creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps his
> 6/6 creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking
> creature (like an instant) and null the attack?

No. Once he has declared attackers, it is too late to "undeclare" them,
except with effects that state they remove the creature from combat.
Declaring attackers (or blockers) does not use the stack; you cannot
respond to them and do stuff "before they resolve". Once again, HOWEVER,
when you and your opponent are finished with the first main phase and
move into the attack phase, you have an opportunity to use this ability
BEFORE he declares attackers, and, of course, anything you tap at that
point can't be declared as an attacker, because you can't declare
tapped creatures as attackers.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:54:48 -0000, Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he is
>blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
>Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
>activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
>not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

Yes. If you give an attacker an "evasion ability" (any of the ones that says
"This creature can't be blocked / except by ...") _after_ it is already
blocked, that doesn't change whether it is blocked or not, and doesn't change
anything about combat damage assignment. To stop the 6/6 from being able to
block you, you would have had to give your 3/3 flying -before- blockers were
declared. The good news is you have plenty of time during declare-attackers
step to do this; the bad news is you're not allowed to "wait, see what he
tries to block with, THEN go back and try to make things unblockable" - you
would have to give the 3/3 flying before you knew whether or not he was going
to block with the 6/6 at all.

>2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana

Quick digression: There's no such thing, at present, as 'generic mana'. What
this Wizard has is a -cost-: Tap is part of it, and 1 is the generic _mana
cost_ that's part of it. This isn't "a cost paid in generic mana", it's "a
mana cost that's generic - payable by any mana, colored or colorless".

("Generic mana" would be a kind of mana that could -pay any cost-, colored or
generic. We don't have a kind of mana that can do that. Similarly, a
"colorless cost" would be one that -only- colorless mana, not colored mana,
could pay. Nitpicky phrasing, we know, but the concepts involved are
different for the cost and for the mana that's paying the cost...)

So: "1,Tap: ..."

>and tap target creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps
>his 6/6 creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking
>creature

Yes, but since it's already been declared as an attacker, this in no way
removes it from combat, and since it's already tapped, this actually has No
Visible Effect at all on it.

You can't 'respond to declaring attackers/blockers' in any way at all; neither
of those use the stack, so neither can be responded to.

>(like an instant) and null the attack?

Nope. "Tap this" is not a counterspell of any sort. You -could-, BEFORE he
had declared attackers, say "I use this to tap <creature> so it won't be
able to attack in a moment". And, if he goes -too fast-, and rushes into
declaring attackers before you get a chance to say you want to tap one of
them first (which, since he can SEE you have this Wizard out, he should not
be doing, but sometimes even then opponent will), you can say "Wait, back up,
I had something to do before you declared attackers" and back up into
beginning-of-combat step ... since that step can't END unless you both pass
in succession with the stack empty, he can't unilaterally move on to
declaring attackers.

But, as above, what you CAN'T do is "wait to see what he wants to attack with,
THEN try to do something "before he attacks" to fiddle with which creatures
get to attack". You have to tap his potential attacker before he gets to
declare his attackers at all; you can't somehow "nullify" an attack that's
already declared this way. Tapping or untapping an attacker or blocker does
not remove it from combat in any way, and does not affect its combat damage in
any way, in general.

It sounds like you (and your friend) may be somewhat new to the game; you just
have to remember, I think, that _no_ step or phase in which a player gets
priority can -end-, until _both_ players, in succession, pass priority. This
means that nobody can end a phase or step on their own, it always takes both
players agreeing ... and it also means that if you want to do something before
the next step or phase starts, you will get a chance to. (What you WON'T get
a chance to do is "wait to see if HE wants to do something, then do something
only if he doesn't want to do anything".)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Q: Are we not men? A: We are Sentinel!
> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he is
> blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
> Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

Yes. You would have had to give it flying *before* blocking was declared
in order for this to work (but of course, you don't always know what
your opponent is planning at that point). Once a creature is already
blocked, very few things can "un-block" it (I think there are two or
three really old cards that can); merely giving it an ability that
*would*, had it been played earlier, prevented the blocking is not
sufficient.

> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap target
> creature or artifact.

Generally, it's both clearer and involves less typing to write it out
approximately the way it's written on the card (use T for the tap symbol
and W, U, B, R, and G for the mana symbols). So this ability would come
out:

1,T: Tap target artifact or creature.

> My opponent announces his attack and taps his 6/6
> creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking creature
> (like an instant) and null the attack?

No. More precisely: it's legal to use the ability to tap that creature,
but this won't do anything very interesting unless Horobi is in play or
something like that, since it's already tapped; tapping it twice is no
different than tapping it once. Once a creature is already in combat
(already declared as an attacker or blocker), neither tapping nor
untapping it will do anything to affect this; to remove it from combat,
you need to kill it, make it stop being a creature, or use some ability
that specifically says it removes creatures from combat.

The best time to use this ability is usually during your opponent's
Beginning of Combat step, which is just *before* your opponent gets to
declare attackers.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he is
> blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
> Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

Giving your creature flying doesn't make it an unblocked creature.
It is blocked and stays blocked during the entire Combat Phase.

> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap target
> creature or artifact.

Do you mean "{T}, {1}: Tap target artifact or creature." ?
(You should try quoting the oracle for official texts.)

> My opponent announces his attack and taps his 6/6 creature. Could I
> now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking creature (like an
> instant) and null the attack?

Announcing attackers doesn't use the stack, you can't respond to it.
After a creature is announced as an attacker, it's already tapped.
Tapping it does exactly nothing.

--
David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thanks!

So, would it be logical to assume the following:

An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green mana
to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here either
to null this effect?

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.61.0501292138550.25249@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:
>
>> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he
>> is
>> blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
>> Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
>> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
>> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?
>
> Giving your creature flying doesn't make it an unblocked creature.
> It is blocked and stays blocked during the entire Combat Phase.
>
>> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap
>> target
>> creature or artifact.
>
> Do you mean "{T}, {1}: Tap target artifact or creature." ?
> (You should try quoting the oracle for official texts.)
>
>> My opponent announces his attack and taps his 6/6 creature. Could I
>> now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking creature (like an
>> instant) and null the attack?
>
> Announcing attackers doesn't use the stack, you can't respond to it.
> After a creature is announced as an attacker, it's already tapped.
> Tapping it does exactly nothing.
>
> --
> David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:05:41 -0000, Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks!
>
>So, would it be logical to assume the following:
>
>An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green mana
>to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here either
>to null this effect?

Logical, yes. Your Wizard's ability (from before, "1,Tap: Tap target creature")
is NOT A COUNTERSPELL / COUNTERABILITY IN ANY WAY. It doesn't SAY it can
counter a spell or ability; all it says is that it can tap a creature. You
can't use this -while- something is being announced, and generally cannot
"back up and use this before the thing opponent has already started to
announce got started" either. What you -can- do with it is tap something so
that it can't _later_ use a Tap-ability. (For example, tapping opponent's
creature during beginning-of-combat step, before he can declare attackers ...
or tapping opponent's Elder during his upkeep or draw step, so it will be
tapped by the time his main phase rolls around and he can't use it to get
mana to cast a creature or enchantment or artifact or sorcery spell with.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

> Thanks!
>
> So, would it be logical to assume the following:
>
> An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green mana
> to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here either
> to null this effect?

The ability of the Elder is a mana ability so it doesn't use the
stack. He has the mana in his pool before you even get priority to do
anything.

If it would have been a normal ability you could respond to it but
since tapping the creature is a cost to play the ability, the Elder is
already tapped at the moment you get priority. Tapping it again does
nothing. Even destroying the source would do nothing to the ability.

--
David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sorry to keep on but I'm trying to wrap my head around it:

Magma Mine - Artifact - [4]: Put a pressure counter on Magma Mine.; [T],
Sacrifice Magma Mine: For every pressure counter on it, Magma Mine deals one
damage to target creature or player.

I've got Magma Mine with a load of Magma counters on it and in one of my
main phases I sacrifice it to deal damage to my opponent - If my opponent
has an instant that can 'destroy target artifact' or an artifact with the
ability 'Sacrifce: destroy target artifact' - could he use one of these to
null the effect of Magma Mine? (Just made up those cards so can't give
oracle description)

Thanks

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.61.0501292218310.25249@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> So, would it be logical to assume the following:
>>
>> An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green
>> mana
>> to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here
>> either
>> to null this effect?
>
> The ability of the Elder is a mana ability so it doesn't use the
> stack. He has the mana in his pool before you even get priority to do
> anything.
>
> If it would have been a normal ability you could respond to it but
> since tapping the creature is a cost to play the ability, the Elder is
> already tapped at the moment you get priority. Tapping it again does
> nothing. Even destroying the source would do nothing to the ability.
>
> --
> David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:52:30 -0000, Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Sorry to keep on but I'm trying to wrap my head around it:
>
>Magma Mine - Artifact - [4]: Put a pressure counter on Magma Mine.; [T],
>Sacrifice Magma Mine: For every pressure counter on it, Magma Mine deals one
>damage to target creature or player.
>
>I've got Magma Mine with a load of Magma counters on it and in one of my
>main phases I sacrifice it to deal damage to my opponent - If my opponent
>has an instant that can 'destroy target artifact' or an artifact with the
>ability 'Sacrifce: destroy target artifact' - could he use one of these to
>null the effect of Magma Mine?

Nope. The Magma Mine's ability's _cost_ involves tapping it and sacrificing
it. By the time anyone, including you, can respond, the costs have already
been paid: the Mine got tapped, then got sacrificed. It's _gone_. It's not
in play to target, any more, during the time anyone can respond to its ability.
To _counter_ the ability (you're using the terms "null the effect", which
doesn't really mean anything in Magic), you would need to use something that
SAYS it can counter the ability - Stifle, for example - OR would need to
somehow make the -target illegal-, since this is a targetted ability.

Once an ability (or spell) has been announced and is on the stack? It's too
late to try to somehow fiddle with things done while it was being announced.
And NO player has priority DURING an announcement - and since a player can
only take an action while he (or she) has priority, that means nobody can
do anything "new" DURING someone's announcement of a spell or ability.

Similarly, nobody has priority at the time attackers, or blockers, are being
declared; spells and abilities are illegal to use then [with one complicated
exception that your examples don't fit into]. You can only use a spell or
ability if you have priority; you get priority back after taking an action
when you had priority; you lose priority by "passing" it, only. Opponent can't
"take priority from you" in any way - if you have priority, he _can't take
an action_. And vice versa, if he has it, you can't take an action.
Both players have to _pass_ priority in succession to resolve whatever is
on top of the stack, or, if the stack is empty, to end the current step or
phase. This means both players get a chance to add new stuff before the current
topmost thing CAN resolve, or before the current step or phase CAN end. What
a player CAN'T do is a) try to go "back to before you started doing what you
were doing so I can do something" (unless opponent simply went too fast and
skipped over a place where you would have had priority), or b) interfere in
what opponent is doing if opponent has priority.

>(Just made up those cards so can't give oracle description)

Shatter, or Goblin Replica, fit your descriptions, respectively.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> Sorry to keep on but I'm trying to wrap my head around it:
>
> Magma Mine - Artifact - [4]: Put a pressure counter on Magma Mine.; [T],
> Sacrifice Magma Mine: For every pressure counter on it, Magma Mine deals
> one damage to target creature or player.
>
> I've got Magma Mine with a load of Magma counters on it and in one of my
> main phases I sacrifice it to deal damage to my opponent - If my opponent
> has an instant that can 'destroy target artifact' or an artifact with the
> ability 'Sacrifce: destroy target artifact' - could he use one of these to
> null the effect of Magma Mine? (Just made up those cards so can't give
> oracle description)
>
No. Sacrificing the Mine is a cost, which means it happens on declaration.
By the time your opponent has priority again, he *can't* destroy the Mine--
it's already in the graveyard. Not that this in fact makes any difference.
Once an effect generated by a permanent has been played and is one the
stack, it is irrelevant if the permanent is destroyed, either because
you yourself sacrificed it or because an opponent played an effect that
destroyed it. The effect still happens. Only something that says it
*counters* the effect can stop it.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thanks to you all!

Just a brief explanation why I brought this up - I started playing the trial
version of MTG Online and noticed I some stuff didn't fit from when I used
to play the real thing - I've lost countless games 'cos my magma mine was
held to ransom by my opponent's Artifact that could 'kill target artifact'.
My Magma mine became the equivilant of a 'red button' (u shoot me and I'll
shoot u!).

Just to finally sweep out the last shred of misunderstanding from my brain
(I'm sure the answer is no) - if two players each had a magma mine with 100
magma counters, the first person to target another opponent and use it would
win, right? The other person couldn't fir their magma mine as an 'instant'?

"Sentinel" <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fIudnW77B6lHdGbcRVnysQ@pipex.net...
> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he
> is blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability
> : Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?
>
> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap
> target creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps his
> 6/6 creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking
> creature (like an instant) and null the attack?
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> Thanks to you all!
>
> Just a brief explanation why I brought this up - I started playing the
> trial version of MTG Online and noticed I some stuff didn't fit from when
> I used to play the real thing - I've lost countless games 'cos my magma
> mine was held to ransom by my opponent's Artifact that could 'kill target
> artifact'. My Magma mine became the equivilant of a 'red button' (u shoot
> me and I'll shoot u!).
>
> Just to finally sweep out the last shred of misunderstanding from my brain
> (I'm sure the answer is no) - if two players each had a magma mine with
> 100 magma counters, the first person to target another opponent and use it
> would win, right? The other person couldn't fir their magma mine as an
> 'instant'?

Nope. Exactly the opposite. See my little essay on timing elsewhere in
the thread. You *can* fire your Mine as an instant--and since the stack
is last in, first out, the second person to do it will see *his* Mine
resolve *first*. Victory goes not to the fastest draw but to the person
who can hold his fire the longest, a situation that is fairly common in
Magic. Note that, for example, a Shatter will win the game for the person
holding it in this situation, *not* because the Shatter can stop the
opponent's Mine from going off but because it forces him to use it. The
opponent has to activate his Mine in order to use it before the Shatter
destroys it--and then the holder of the Shatter can activate *his* Mine
in response, getting it to resolve first and winning him the game.
>
> "Sentinel" <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fIudnW77B6lHdGbcRVnysQ@pipex.net...
>> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he
>> is blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability
>> : Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land
>> : to
>> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
>> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?
>>
>> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap
>> target creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps
>> his 6/6 creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the
>> attacking creature (like an instant) and null the attack?
>>

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Had an afterthought -

if my opponent plays 'Shatter' (Instant - destroy target artifact) on my
magma mine, I presume this means I couldn't use my magma mine (kinda like an
instant) to damage my opponent?

"Sentinel" <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e4qdnRz_x8UYmGHcRVnyvw@pipex.net...
> Sorry to keep on but I'm trying to wrap my head around it:
>
> Magma Mine - Artifact - [4]: Put a pressure counter on Magma Mine.; [T],
> Sacrifice Magma Mine: For every pressure counter on it, Magma Mine deals
> one damage to target creature or player.
>
> I've got Magma Mine with a load of Magma counters on it and in one of my
> main phases I sacrifice it to deal damage to my opponent - If my opponent
> has an instant that can 'destroy target artifact' or an artifact with the
> ability 'Sacrifce: destroy target artifact' - could he use one of these to
> null the effect of Magma Mine? (Just made up those cards so can't give
> oracle description)
>
> Thanks
>
> "David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
> newsine.GSO.4.61.0501292218310.25249@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> So, would it be logical to assume the following:
>>>
>>> An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green
>>> mana
>>> to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here
>>> either
>>> to null this effect?
>>
>> The ability of the Elder is a mana ability so it doesn't use the
>> stack. He has the mana in his pool before you even get priority to do
>> anything.
>>
>> If it would have been a normal ability you could respond to it but
>> since tapping the creature is a cost to play the ability, the Elder is
>> already tapped at the moment you get priority. Tapping it again does
>> nothing. Even destroying the source would do nothing to the ability.
>>
>> --
>> David
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> Had an afterthought -
>
> if my opponent plays 'Shatter' (Instant - destroy target artifact) on my
> magma mine, I presume this means I couldn't use my magma mine (kinda like
> an instant) to damage my opponent?

Actually, yes, you can. You just have to use it right then. Since the
Shatter destroys the Mine on resolution, you will get priority before
it happens. You can then use your priority to sacrifice the Mine
to damage something. In fact, since you will *keep* getting priority
after each effect you play until you decide to pass, if you have
sufficient open mana, you can put more pressure counters on the Mine
(as many as you have mana for), and *then* blow it. The Mine will then
be gone by the time the Shatter resolves (and the Shatter will be
countered on resolution for not having any legal targets). Obviously
you can't use *after* the Shatter resolves, though...

I'm not sure you completely understand the stack. Remember, it works like
this: Active player gets priority at the beginning of the phase. He can
play something (paying costs and identifying any targets) or pass. If he
plays something, it goes on the stack (it will not actually carry out
its effects until it resolves) and he then gets priority again. If he
passes, the Non-Active Player gets priority and has the same two choices.
If both players pass in succession, the effect most recently placed on
the stack resolves; whatever it does happens, and then the Active Player
gets priority again.. If both players pass in succession while there is
nothing on the stack, the phase is over. Play moves on to the next phase.

So it works like this in your hypothetical. Your opponent has priority.
He taps land or uses some other mana generating ability to put two mana
(one of which must be red) into his mana pool. He then plays Shatter,
identifying your Magma Mine as the target and removing the two mana from
his mana pool to pay for it. The Shatter goes on the stack. He then
passes. (He could have then gone on to play something else, but we'll
assume he decided to pass here)

Now you have priority. You generate four mana (by tapping lands or
whatever), and play the activated ability of the Mine for putting on
a counter, removing the four mana from your mana pool to do so.
(Note that you don't identify a target because the ability doesn't
have one). You get priority again. You generate four more mana and
play the ability again.

You pass. Your opponent passes. The second activation of the Mine
resolves, and a Pressure counter is placed on the Mine. You pass.
(I'm assuming it's your turn) Your opponent passes. The first
activation of the Mine resolves, and another Pressure counter is
placed on the Mine. You now have priority and use to activate the
damage-dealing activated ability of the Mine. You identify your
opponent as the target and then tap the Mine and sacrifice it to
pay for the ability, placing the Mine in your graveyard. The ability
goes on the stack. You pass. Your opponent passes. The ability
resolves, inflicting the appropriate amount of damage on your
opponent. You pass. Your opponent passes. The Shatter attempts
to resolve, discovers that its only target is no longer in play
and is countered for lack of legal targets. The Shatter is placed
in your opponent's graveyard. You get priority and play continues.

This is quite a little essay, but with a little practice you start
working out how the stack will work in a given situation fairly
easily. I went into very excruciating detail here because I felt
you needed a good understanding of the timing principles which
determine how these things work.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Cheers, Chris! You gave me a headache but I'm starting to get the hang of
it!

"Chris Mattern" <matternc@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WOidnc-y96NDo2HcRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
> Sentinel wrote:
>
>> Had an afterthought -
>>
>> if my opponent plays 'Shatter' (Instant - destroy target artifact) on my
>> magma mine, I presume this means I couldn't use my magma mine (kinda like
>> an instant) to damage my opponent?
>
> Actually, yes, you can. You just have to use it right then. Since the
> Shatter destroys the Mine on resolution, you will get priority before
> it happens. You can then use your priority to sacrifice the Mine
> to damage something. In fact, since you will *keep* getting priority
> after each effect you play until you decide to pass, if you have
> sufficient open mana, you can put more pressure counters on the Mine
> (as many as you have mana for), and *then* blow it. The Mine will then
> be gone by the time the Shatter resolves (and the Shatter will be
> countered on resolution for not having any legal targets). Obviously
> you can't use *after* the Shatter resolves, though...
>
> I'm not sure you completely understand the stack. Remember, it works like
> this: Active player gets priority at the beginning of the phase. He can
> play something (paying costs and identifying any targets) or pass. If he
> plays something, it goes on the stack (it will not actually carry out
> its effects until it resolves) and he then gets priority again. If he
> passes, the Non-Active Player gets priority and has the same two choices.
> If both players pass in succession, the effect most recently placed on
> the stack resolves; whatever it does happens, and then the Active Player
> gets priority again.. If both players pass in succession while there is
> nothing on the stack, the phase is over. Play moves on to the next phase.
>
> So it works like this in your hypothetical. Your opponent has priority.
> He taps land or uses some other mana generating ability to put two mana
> (one of which must be red) into his mana pool. He then plays Shatter,
> identifying your Magma Mine as the target and removing the two mana from
> his mana pool to pay for it. The Shatter goes on the stack. He then
> passes. (He could have then gone on to play something else, but we'll
> assume he decided to pass here)
>
> Now you have priority. You generate four mana (by tapping lands or
> whatever), and play the activated ability of the Mine for putting on
> a counter, removing the four mana from your mana pool to do so.
> (Note that you don't identify a target because the ability doesn't
> have one). You get priority again. You generate four more mana and
> play the ability again.
>
> You pass. Your opponent passes. The second activation of the Mine
> resolves, and a Pressure counter is placed on the Mine. You pass.
> (I'm assuming it's your turn) Your opponent passes. The first
> activation of the Mine resolves, and another Pressure counter is
> placed on the Mine. You now have priority and use to activate the
> damage-dealing activated ability of the Mine. You identify your
> opponent as the target and then tap the Mine and sacrifice it to
> pay for the ability, placing the Mine in your graveyard. The ability
> goes on the stack. You pass. Your opponent passes. The ability
> resolves, inflicting the appropriate amount of damage on your
> opponent. You pass. Your opponent passes. The Shatter attempts
> to resolve, discovers that its only target is no longer in play
> and is countered for lack of legal targets. The Shatter is placed
> in your opponent's graveyard. You get priority and play continues.
>
> This is quite a little essay, but with a little practice you start
> working out how the stack will work in a given situation fairly
> easily. I went into very excruciating detail here because I felt
> you needed a good understanding of the timing principles which
> determine how these things work.
>
> --
> Christopher Mattern
>
> "Which one you figure tracked us?"
> "The ugly one, sir."
> "...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Just a brief explanation why I brought this up - I started playing the trial
>version of MTG Online and noticed I some stuff didn't fit from when I used
>to play the real thing - I've lost countless games 'cos my magma mine was
>held to ransom by my opponent's Artifact that could 'kill target artifact'.
>My Magma mine became the equivilant of a 'red button' (u shoot me and I'll
>shoot u!).
>
>Just to finally sweep out the last shred of misunderstanding from my brain
>(I'm sure the answer is no) - if two players each had a magma mine with 100
>magma counters, the first person to target another opponent and use it would
>win, right? The other person couldn't fir their magma mine as an 'instant'?

This one, however, is also a "no". Unless an ability says otherwise, you can
play (announce) it any time you have priority ...which is the same as the
phrase "any time you could play an Instant". A Magma Mine's ability does not
say "Play this only any time you could play a Sorcery", so follows the usual
rule and can be done any time you have priority. And, since you _must_ get
priority at least once before anything on the stack can resolve, it follows
that you can "respond to" something on the stack by using the Mine's ability,
or most any other activated ability.

Therefore, this means that the above situation is _not_ "whoever shoots first
wins"... because whoever shoots -first- can have their ability responded to
by the other player using -their- Mine's ability, and the topmost ability on
the stack resolves first - the second-played one. So the first to shoot, in
this situation, won't end up the winner.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:21:22 -0000, Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Had an afterthought -
>
>if my opponent plays 'Shatter' (Instant - destroy target artifact) on my
>magma mine, I presume this means I couldn't use my magma mine (kinda like an
>instant) to damage my opponent?

Sure you can; your Mine's ability can respond to any spell or ability (or
combat damage) that uses the stack. You can respond to their Shatter, before
it gets to resolve, by using your Mine.

Opponent announces Shatter; puts Shatter on stack, picks target (Mine), pays
1R.
Opponent gets priority again; opponent has nothing else to do, so passes.
You get priority. You announce your Mine's ability: put the ability on the
stack, pick the target (him), pay the cost - tap the Mine and sacrifice it.
(The Mine is now gone, much like the 1R was gone from opponent's mana pool
once he announced the Shatter.)
You get priority again; you have nothing else to do, so you pass.
Opponent gets priority, and has nothing they can do, so they pass.
Both players passed in succession: the topmost thing on the stack resolves.
The Mine's ability checks its target is still legal - yep - and resolves,
dealing N damage to your opponent, where the Mine had N counters on it back
when you sacrificed it.
Something resolved off the stack, so active player gets priority; you haven't
specified whose turn it is. Assume neither player has anything else to do, so
both pass in succession.
Both players passed in succession; the topmost thing on the stack goes to
resolve. The Shatter checks its target - oops, the target is missing. That was
its only target, so ALL its targets are now illegal, and the Shatter gets
countered, rather than resolving; the Shatter goes to opponent's graveyard
from the stack, with no effect.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello,
If you do not want to your opponent to use his Fyndhorn Elder as a mana
source to cast spells, you could activate your wizard to tap his elder
during his upkeep. He will not be able to use the mana to cast spells,
because the mana will have to be used before the upkeep step is over. (He
may choose not to put the mana into his mana pool, the tapping ability of
your wizard does not force him to use the elder's ability, but just taps
it.)

Jonathan

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.61.0501292218310.25249@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

> Thanks!
>
> So, would it be logical to assume the following:
>
> An opponent taps his Fyndhorn Eldar for Mana (2/2 - [T] Add two green mana
> to your mana pool). I presume I couldn't use my Wizard's ability here
> either
> to null this effect?

The ability of the Elder is a mana ability so it doesn't use the
stack. He has the mana in his pool before you even get priority to do
anything.

If it would have been a normal ability you could respond to it but
since tapping the creature is a cost to play the ability, the Elder is
already tapped at the moment you get priority. Tapping it again does
nothing. Even destroying the source would do nothing to the ability.

--
David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jonathan Fourie wrote:

> Hello,
> If you do not want to your opponent to use his Fyndhorn Elder as a mana
> source to cast spells, you could activate your wizard to tap his elder
> during his upkeep. He will not be able to use the mana to cast spells,
> because the mana will have to be used before the upkeep step is over. (He
> may choose not to put the mana into his mana pool, the tapping ability of
> your wizard does not force him to use the elder's ability, but just taps
> it.)
>
Well, he can still use it to power Instants he plays during is upkeep;
also activated abilities.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Last question on this (honest)! So if I turn the magma mine / shatter
scenario around:

I announce I'm gonna blow Magma Mine first,
my opponent plays shatter,
we both pass priority so the last in (shatter) would take effect and destroy
Magma Mine,
Magma Mine is no longer in play to do damage - end of stack.

Is that right?

"Sentinel" <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eICdndBLprFAomHcRVnyiw@pipex.net...
> Cheers, Chris! You gave me a headache but I'm starting to get the hang of
> it!
>
> "Chris Mattern" <matternc@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:WOidnc-y96NDo2HcRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>> Sentinel wrote:
>>
>>> Had an afterthought -
>>>
>>> if my opponent plays 'Shatter' (Instant - destroy target artifact) on my
>>> magma mine, I presume this means I couldn't use my magma mine (kinda
>>> like
>>> an instant) to damage my opponent?
>>
>> Actually, yes, you can. You just have to use it right then. Since the
>> Shatter destroys the Mine on resolution, you will get priority before
>> it happens. You can then use your priority to sacrifice the Mine
>> to damage something. In fact, since you will *keep* getting priority
>> after each effect you play until you decide to pass, if you have
>> sufficient open mana, you can put more pressure counters on the Mine
>> (as many as you have mana for), and *then* blow it. The Mine will then
>> be gone by the time the Shatter resolves (and the Shatter will be
>> countered on resolution for not having any legal targets). Obviously
>> you can't use *after* the Shatter resolves, though...
>>
>> I'm not sure you completely understand the stack. Remember, it works
>> like
>> this: Active player gets priority at the beginning of the phase. He can
>> play something (paying costs and identifying any targets) or pass. If he
>> plays something, it goes on the stack (it will not actually carry out
>> its effects until it resolves) and he then gets priority again. If he
>> passes, the Non-Active Player gets priority and has the same two choices.
>> If both players pass in succession, the effect most recently placed on
>> the stack resolves; whatever it does happens, and then the Active Player
>> gets priority again.. If both players pass in succession while there is
>> nothing on the stack, the phase is over. Play moves on to the next
>> phase.
>>
>> So it works like this in your hypothetical. Your opponent has priority.
>> He taps land or uses some other mana generating ability to put two mana
>> (one of which must be red) into his mana pool. He then plays Shatter,
>> identifying your Magma Mine as the target and removing the two mana from
>> his mana pool to pay for it. The Shatter goes on the stack. He then
>> passes. (He could have then gone on to play something else, but we'll
>> assume he decided to pass here)
>>
>> Now you have priority. You generate four mana (by tapping lands or
>> whatever), and play the activated ability of the Mine for putting on
>> a counter, removing the four mana from your mana pool to do so.
>> (Note that you don't identify a target because the ability doesn't
>> have one). You get priority again. You generate four more mana and
>> play the ability again.
>>
>> You pass. Your opponent passes. The second activation of the Mine
>> resolves, and a Pressure counter is placed on the Mine. You pass.
>> (I'm assuming it's your turn) Your opponent passes. The first
>> activation of the Mine resolves, and another Pressure counter is
>> placed on the Mine. You now have priority and use to activate the
>> damage-dealing activated ability of the Mine. You identify your
>> opponent as the target and then tap the Mine and sacrifice it to
>> pay for the ability, placing the Mine in your graveyard. The ability
>> goes on the stack. You pass. Your opponent passes. The ability
>> resolves, inflicting the appropriate amount of damage on your
>> opponent. You pass. Your opponent passes. The Shatter attempts
>> to resolve, discovers that its only target is no longer in play
>> and is countered for lack of legal targets. The Shatter is placed
>> in your opponent's graveyard. You get priority and play continues.
>>
>> This is quite a little essay, but with a little practice you start
>> working out how the stack will work in a given situation fairly
>> easily. I went into very excruciating detail here because I felt
>> you needed a good understanding of the timing principles which
>> determine how these things work.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Mattern
>>
>> "Which one you figure tracked us?"
>> "The ugly one, sir."
>> "...Could you be more specific?"
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 1. I declare an attack and tap my creature (3/3). My opponent declares he is
> blocking with a (6/6). My attacking creautre has the following ability :
> Sacrifice a land to gain flying until end of turn. I sacrifice a land to
> activate this ability. My question is: Although the blocking creature has
> not got flying, would my attacking creature still be blocked?

Yes. You must use the ability before your opponent has a chance to
choose a blocker (before the Declare Blockers step). Once blocked, it
stays so (even if the block would become illegal afterwards).

> 2. I have a wizard with the ability: Tap & Pay 1 generic mana and tap target
> creature or artifact. My opponent announces his attack and taps his 6/6
> creature. Could I now use my wizard's ability to tap the attacking creature
> (like an instant) and null the attack?

You prevent the 6/6 from attacking once it was declared as an attacking
creature, but you can tap it in your opponent's Pre-combat Main phase or
in the Beginning of Combat step. In that case, the creature will be
tapped at the beginning of the Declare Attackers step (and your opponent
will not be able to choose it to attack).

- ∞

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jonathan Fourie <jonathan@jonREMOVEathan.za.net> wrote:
>If you do not want to your opponent to use his Fyndhorn Elder as a mana
>source to cast spells, you could activate your wizard to tap his elder
>during his upkeep. He will not be able to use the mana to cast spells,

Good idea so far, and strategically sound...

>because the mana will have to be used before the upkeep step is over.

Not correct. Manaburn is checked for at end of phase, and the upkeep step's
end doesn't end Beginning phase, the draw step's end does.

He still won't be able to get the mana in upkeep and "float" it over into
main phase, though. (Contrast this to the green "burnless" mana a few cards
produce in Betrayers...)

>(He may choose not to put the mana into his mana pool, the tapping ability of
>your wizard does not force him to use the elder's ability, but just taps
>it.)

Correct.


--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Last question on this (honest)! So if I turn the magma mine / shatter
>scenario around:
>
>I announce I'm gonna blow Magma Mine first,

Okay...

>my opponent plays shatter,

He can do so just fine in response.

However, he CAN'T possibly TARGET THE MINE with it, because the Mine is _no
longer there_. Part of announcing its ability involved sacrificing it, as
part of the activation cost; that means it's GONE before any responses can be
announced at all. (Its ability will sit on the stack, waiting for responses,
and won't resolve until everyone's done adding responses, all the responses
have been dealt with, and both players pass in succession with it on top...
but the -activation cost- of the ability is paid on announcement. Costs are
paid on announcement, before any response is possible; effects happen on
resolution, after all responses have been dealt with.)

>we both pass priority so the last in (shatter) would take effect and destroy
>Magma Mine,

What Magma Mine? You -sacrificed- it before opponent ever got the chance to
respond. Opponent can perfectly well cast Shatter in response, but has to
find a legal target for it, which the Mine card _in your graveyard_ is not.

Assuming opponent does respond with a Shatter on something else, then the
Shatter will resolve (or get countered) before the Mine ability does, yes, But
Shatter isn't a counterspell, and can't -counter- the Mine ability, in
general. (If the Mine ability targetted an artifact creature, then Shattering
that artifact creature and destroying IT will counter the Mine ability on
resolution, because THAT makes the Mine's ability's -target- illegal. But the
Shatter can't do anything to the already-missing Mine, and can't target the
Mine's -ability- on the stack.)

>Magma Mine is no longer in play to do damage - end of stack.
>
>Is that right?

Nope. Magma Mine was "no longer in play" before any responses were possible, so
it's not a legal target for opponent's Shatter, AND nothing about Magma Mine's
ability states that the Mine must somehow still be in play to have the damage
get dealt. The same Mine is -never- in play on resolution of the Mine's
ability; however, this does nothing to stop the ability from resolving.

You may be thinking, somehow, that the tapping and sacrificing is done ON
RESOLUTION of the ability. It's not; it's the activation cost, and is done as
part of announcing it, after you put the ability on the stack and pick the
target, and before ANY responses are possible. Activation costs, mana costs,
and additional costs are paid on announcement; effects don't occur until
resolution.

(Oh, and please catch on that a) posting -under- the quoted text is A Good
Thing and b) snipping the quoted text to only what's relevant is A Good Thing
also...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:49:59 -0000, "Sentinel"
<robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Last question on this (honest)! So if I turn the magma mine / shatter
>scenario around:
>
>I announce I'm gonna blow Magma Mine first,
>my opponent plays shatter,
>we both pass priority so the last in (shatter) would take effect and destroy
>Magma Mine,
>Magma Mine is no longer in play to do damage - end of stack.
>
>Is that right?

No.
A) The ability on the stack is independant of the source.
B) The Mine is sacrificed when you announce that you play its "blow
up" ability, so the opponent can't target it with his shatter to begin
with.

Lets take two new cards:

Prodigal Sorcerer
{2}{U}
Creature -- Wizard
1/1
{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

Myr Servitor
{1}
Artifact Creature -- Myr
1/1
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~this~ is in play, each player
returns all cards named Myr Servitor from his or her graveyard to
play.


Scenario 1:
You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
graveyard.
The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
1 damage.

The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.


Scenario 2:
It is the beginning of your upkeep, thus the ability of your Myr
Servitor triggers and goes on the stack.
Your opponent responds by playing Shatter targeting it.
Shatter resolves destroying the Myr Servitor who goes to the
graveyard.
The ability from Myr Servitor resolves, but has an "if ~this~ is in
play" clause - this clause is clearly not true, and thus the ability
DoesNothing.


In the case of the Magma Mine there is nothing your opponent can do
with only a Shatter. You will always be able to respond by blowing it
up in his head - unless, of course, it for some reason got tapped.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann