Orochi "stun" effect

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by an
Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers untap step?

I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a creature,
someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a creature so ignores
the ability.

Thanks,
Colin

Soilshaper
1G
Creature - Spirit
1/1
Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, target land becomes a 3/3
creature until end of turn. It's still a land.
Genju of the Cedars
G
Enchant Forest
2: Enchanted Forest becomes a 4/4 green Spirit creature until end of turn.
It's still a land.
When enchanted Forest is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the
Cedars from your graveyard to your hand.
Orochi Ranger
1G
Creature - Snake Warrior
2/1
Whenever Orochi Ranger deals combat damage to a creature, tap that creature
and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:24:19 -0000, colinr <colinr@3s3rv3.co.uk> wrote:
>If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by an
>Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers untap step?

Nope.

>I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a creature,
>someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a creature so ignores
>the ability.

You're correct, and for the correct reason:

202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to
identify an object, where [something] is a category or characteristic, it is
referring to that particular object, even if it isn't the appropriate category
or characteristic at the time.
Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Destroy that creature at end of turn". The ability will destroy the object it
gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if that object isn't a creature
anymore.

>Orochi Ranger >1G >Creature - Snake Warrior
>2/1 Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a creature, tap that creature
> and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

Here the 'that creature' and the 'it' are both referring back to 'the
permanent that, when last referred to, was called a creature'. The effect
doesn't care that it's no longer a creature later; to care it would need to
be worded something like "and, if it's still a creature, it doesn't untap
during...".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Q: Are we not men? A: We are colinr!
> If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by an
> Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers untap step?
>
> I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a creature,
> someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a creature so ignores
> the ability.

You are correct, the other fellow is not. "That creature" in contexts
like this really means "that object, whatever it looks like now"; it
keeps "following" it even if it's no longer a creature. This would be
very different if there were targeting involved; then your opponent
would have the right of it. He was probably thinking of that, or
something like it.


> Thanks,
> Colin
>
> Soilshaper
> 1G
> Creature - Spirit
> 1/1
> Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, target land becomes a 3/3
> creature until end of turn. It's still a land.
> Genju of the Cedars
> G
> Enchant Forest
> 2: Enchanted Forest becomes a 4/4 green Spirit creature until end of turn.
> It's still a land.
> When enchanted Forest is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the
> Cedars from your graveyard to your hand.
> Orochi Ranger
> 1G
> Creature - Snake Warrior
> 2/1
> Whenever Orochi Ranger deals combat damage to a creature, tap that creature
> and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
>
>
>
>

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, colinr wrote:

> If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by an
> Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers untap step?
>
> I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a creature,
> someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a creature so ignores
> the ability.
>
> Thanks,
> Colin
>
> Orochi Ranger
> 1G
> Creature - Snake Warrior
> 2/1
> Whenever Orochi Ranger deals combat damage to a creature, tap that creature
> and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.

You are right. "that creature" means the "permanent that was the
creature that was damaged by Orochi Ranger".

--
David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>> If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by
>> an Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers
>> untap step?
>>
>> I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a
>> creature, someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a
>> creature so ignores the ability.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Colin
>>
>> Orochi Ranger
>> 1G
>> Creature - Snake Warrior
>> 2/1
>> Whenever Orochi Ranger deals combat damage to a creature, tap that
>> creature and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap
>> step.
>
> You are right. "that creature" means the "permanent that was the
> creature that was damaged by Orochi Ranger".

Cool, thanks.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:24:19 -0000, colinr <colinr@3s3rv3.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> If a land animated by Soilshaper's ability, or a genju is damaged by
>> an Orochi Ranger for example, does it untap during it's controllers
>> untap step?
>
> Nope.
>
>> I assumed no, as the effect doesn't care if it's no longer a
>> creature, someone else argued yes because the effect doesn't see a
>> creature so ignores the ability.
>
> You're correct, and for the correct reason:
>
> 202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this
> [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a category
> or characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if
> it isn't the appropriate category or characteristic at the time.
> Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of
> turn. Destroy that creature at end of turn". The ability will destroy
> the object it gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if that object
> isn't a creature anymore.

Cheers David, I shall quote that ruling if it comes up again.

Colin