Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)
Hi all,
When I read the Patron of the Orochi's ability, I thought "hey, can I
use this with Spectral Shift!". Unfortunately, the Oracle's ruling says no:
Dec 1, 2004 - It's not possible to target the same spell or permanent
with both abilities.
I am confused; why? Entwine's ruling says:
502.32b If the entwine cost was paid, follow the text of each of the
modes in the order written on the card when the spell resolves.
Unless I am totally missing the point, I should be able to target the
same spell/permanent as it is only one spell with (up to) two possible
targets. I understand that rule 413.2a has something to do with this:
413.2a If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the
targets are still legal. A target that's removed from play, or from the
zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A target may also
become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability
was played or if an effect changed the text of the spell. If all targets
are now illegal, the spell or ability is countered. If the spell or
ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the
targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or
ability can't perform any actions on it or make the target perform any
actions. If the spell or ability needs to know information about one or
more targets that are now illegal, it will use the illegal targets'
current or last known information.
However, an entwined Spectral Shift is one spell, not two different
spells, so the characteristics of the spell/permanent hasn't changed.
For comparison purposes, there is Decimate's new ruling:
Dec 1, 2004 - With the new targeting rules, you no longer need four
distinct targets for Decimate. If the spell or ability uses the word
target in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once
for each instance of the word "target." For example, you could choose
Tree of Tales for both the artifact and the land. You still need a legal
target enchantment and creature as well.
Spectral Shift
(1)(U)
Instant
Choose one — Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing
all instances of one basic land type with another; or change the text of
target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word
with another. (These effects don’t end at end of turn.)
Entwine (2)
Patron of the Orochi
(6)(G)(G)
Creature - Spirit
7/7
Snake offering (You may play this card any time you could play an
instant by sacrificing a Snake and paying the difference in mana costs
between this and the sacrificed Snake. Mana cost includes color.)
TAP: : Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
Decimate
(2)(R)(G)
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact, target creature, target enchantment, and target
land
TIA!
Hi all,
When I read the Patron of the Orochi's ability, I thought "hey, can I
use this with Spectral Shift!". Unfortunately, the Oracle's ruling says no:
Dec 1, 2004 - It's not possible to target the same spell or permanent
with both abilities.
I am confused; why? Entwine's ruling says:
502.32b If the entwine cost was paid, follow the text of each of the
modes in the order written on the card when the spell resolves.
Unless I am totally missing the point, I should be able to target the
same spell/permanent as it is only one spell with (up to) two possible
targets. I understand that rule 413.2a has something to do with this:
413.2a If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the
targets are still legal. A target that's removed from play, or from the
zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A target may also
become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability
was played or if an effect changed the text of the spell. If all targets
are now illegal, the spell or ability is countered. If the spell or
ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the
targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or
ability can't perform any actions on it or make the target perform any
actions. If the spell or ability needs to know information about one or
more targets that are now illegal, it will use the illegal targets'
current or last known information.
However, an entwined Spectral Shift is one spell, not two different
spells, so the characteristics of the spell/permanent hasn't changed.
For comparison purposes, there is Decimate's new ruling:
Dec 1, 2004 - With the new targeting rules, you no longer need four
distinct targets for Decimate. If the spell or ability uses the word
target in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once
for each instance of the word "target." For example, you could choose
Tree of Tales for both the artifact and the land. You still need a legal
target enchantment and creature as well.
Spectral Shift
(1)(U)
Instant
Choose one — Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing
all instances of one basic land type with another; or change the text of
target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word
with another. (These effects don’t end at end of turn.)
Entwine (2)
Patron of the Orochi
(6)(G)(G)
Creature - Spirit
7/7
Snake offering (You may play this card any time you could play an
instant by sacrificing a Snake and paying the difference in mana costs
between this and the sacrificed Snake. Mana cost includes color.)
TAP: : Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
Decimate
(2)(R)(G)
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact, target creature, target enchantment, and target
land
TIA!
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