Sorceress Queen and Creature Enchantments and Counters

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi all,

I have Titania's Chosen in play with Gaea's Embrace enchanting it. My
opponent taps his Sorceress Queen targeting the Titania's Chosen.
Assuming the Titania's Chosen has two +1/+1 counters on it, what is
its power and toughness after the Sorceress Queen's ability resolves?

Seems like a layering thing, but, heh, I had a number of beers in me
at the game last night, and after scanning the comprehensive rules
on layers, it hurt my brain, so we just said the creature was 0/2
and moved on (I wound up crushing my opponents anyway).

Sorceress Queen
1BB
Creature - Sorceress
1/1
T: Target creature other than Sorceress Queen is 0/2 until end of turn.

Titania's Chosen
2G
Creature - Elf
1/1
Whenever a player plays a green spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Titania's Chosen.

Gaea's Embrace
2GG
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature gets +3/+3 and has trample.
G: Regenerate enchanted creature.

Thanks!

- Dave
Magic: The Gathering card singles
http://www.destinationmtg.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:45:51 -0600, Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>I have Titania's Chosen in play with Gaea's Embrace enchanting it. My
>opponent taps his Sorceress Queen targeting the Titania's Chosen.
>Assuming the Titania's Chosen has two +1/+1 counters on it, what is
>its power and toughness after the Sorceress Queen's ability resolves?

It is, carefully checking 418.5a, 1/1 +2/+2 (counters) +3/+3 (Embrace) -> 0/2
(Queen) = 0/2.

>Seems like a layering thing, but, heh, I had a number of beers in me
>at the game last night, and after scanning the comprehensive rules
>on layers, it hurt my brain, so we just said the creature was 0/2
>and moved on (I wound up crushing my opponents anyway).

You're correct, actually. (And are also correct about the brain-hurting part,
alas.)

>Sorceress Queen 1BB Creature - Sorceress
>1/1 T: Target creature other than Sorceress Queen is 0/2 until end of turn.

Details: 418.5a says to apply characteristic-settic effects first in layer 6,
then counters, then other stuff; other places in the rules tell you to apply
the other stuff in timestamp order, if there's no dependency (which there is
not here).

Sorceress Queen's effect, though it does set two characteristics, is NOT
"characteristic-setting" - because it can affect things other than the Queen
itself [and, as the card is written, _must_ do so]. So you start with the
1/1; apply the effect from the counters; then apply the Embrace, then the
Queen, in that order, because the Embrace is timestamped earlier (it was there
already when the Queen's effect resolved). The last thing applied, the Queen's
effect, actually overwrites the previous stuff, and has it end up as 0/2.

(If you later that turn _moved_ the Embrace onto something else, then back
again, that resets its timestamp to later than the Queen's, and now the
creature would be 3/5...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have Titania's Chosen in play with Gaea's Embrace enchanting it. My
> opponent taps his Sorceress Queen targeting the Titania's Chosen.
> Assuming the Titania's Chosen has two +1/+1 counters on it, what is
> its power and toughness after the Sorceress Queen's ability resolves?
>
> Seems like a layering thing, but, heh, I had a number of beers in me
> at the game last night, and after scanning the comprehensive rules
> on layers, it hurt my brain, so we just said the creature was 0/2
> and moved on (I wound up crushing my opponents anyway).

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by
starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a
series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503,
"Copying Objects"), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing
effects, (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all
other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness,
and (6) power- or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting
abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes
from characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp
order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).

It is a layering thing, but layer 5 is applied in the order
characteristic-setting abilities, counters, other abilities. (This
avoids the need to track timestamp for counters.) So Sorceress Queen
will override the counters regardless of when they are placed.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[bum3635]

I agree with you on the enchantment as it is a permenent and subject to layering, but 418.5a also states "apply changes from counters after changes from characteristic-setting abilities" meaning the Titania's Chosen would be a 2/4 (i.e. a 0/2 with 2 +1/+1 counters on it). Counters are not permenents, but markers to indicate something, and work different in the layering.