Revenant Question

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First the rulings on three cards involved

Revenant, 4B
Creature - Spirit
Flying, */*
Revenant’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of
creature cards in your graveyard.

Kokusho, the Evening Star
Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
Flying, 5/5
When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.

Patriarch's Bidding
Sorcery
3BB

Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature
cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to play.

*** *** ***

Consider a Spirit deck with the a handful of Spirits, including 1
Revenant and 2 Kokusho, in the graveyard. If I play Patriarch's
Bidding and choose Spirit, the Revenant is a 0/0 creature because
there aren't any creatures in my grave, and the Kokusho kill each
other because of Legend rule. As far as I can recall these are both
state-based effects.

My question: am I allowed to put the Kokusho into grave first, which
would then spare my Revenant (now a 2/2 creature)?


Terry

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie wrote:

> First the rulings on three cards involved
>
> Revenant, 4B
> Creature - Spirit
> Flying, */*
> Revenant’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of
> creature cards in your graveyard.
>
> Kokusho, the Evening Star
> Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
> Flying, 5/5
> When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>
> Patriarch's Bidding
> Sorcery
> 3BB
>
> Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature
> cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to play.
>
> *** *** ***
>
> Consider a Spirit deck with the a handful of Spirits, including 1
> Revenant and 2 Kokusho, in the graveyard. If I play Patriarch's
> Bidding and choose Spirit, the Revenant is a 0/0 creature because
> there aren't any creatures in my grave, and the Kokusho kill each
> other because of Legend rule. As far as I can recall these are both
> state-based effects.

Yes, that's right.
>
> My question: am I allowed to put the Kokusho into grave first, which
> would then spare my Revenant (now a 2/2 creature)?
>
>

From the Comprehensive Rulebook:

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of Spells
and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for
state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single event, then
the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have been generated,
triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the appropriate player gets
priority. This check is also made during the cleanup step (see rule 314); if
any of the listed conditions apply, the active player receives priority.

The rule is that when you check SBEs and have more than one, they all
resolve at once; you don't get to do one "first". So your Revenant,
unfortunately, doesn't get to live. But look on the bright side; you've
just made your opponent lose 10 life and you gained 10 life.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie <detrie@comcast.net> wrote:

> My question: am I allowed to put the Kokusho into grave first, which
> would then spare my Revenant (now a 2/2 creature)?

No.

Both of those state-based effects resolve as a single event.

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of
Spells and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions
for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single
event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have
been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the
appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made during the
cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed conditions apply, the
active player receives priority.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Terry Detrie <detrie@comcast.net> wrote:
>First the rulings on three cards involved
>
>Revenant, 4B >Creature - Spirit
>Flying, */*
>~'s power and toughness are each equal to the number of
>creature cards in your graveyard.
>
>Kokusho, the Evening Star >Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
>Flying, 5/5
>When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, each
>opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>
>Patriarch's Bidding >Sorcery >3BB
>Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature
>cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to play.

....Okay. If Kokusho goes to the graveyard, he starts contributing to your
Revenant's power/toughness in play (for card Kokushos, anyway; a token
Kokusho does go to the graveyard for a small interval, but is never a
creature _card_ there). Bidding for Spirit gets the Revenant and the Kokusho
back at the same time, so that the Kokusho is not in the graveyard _after_
the Revenant comes into play... Let's see what the actual question is.

>Consider a Spirit deck with the a handful of Spirits, including 1
>Revenant and 2 Kokusho, in the graveyard. If I play Patriarch's
>Bidding and choose Spirit, the Revenant is a 0/0 creature because
>there aren't any creatures in my grave, and the Kokusho kill each
>other because of Legend rule. As far as I can recall these are both
>state-based effects.

Ah, yes. Yes, they both are. (That is, if Spirit creature cards were the
-only- creature cards in your graveyard.) The Revenant will go to the
graveyard at the exact same time that both Kokushos do - again, it won't
stay in play for a moment, see them there, and become a 2/2 in time to live.

>My question: am I allowed to put the Kokusho into grave first, which
>would then spare my Revenant (now a 2/2 creature)?

No; none of this "happens first". All the state-based effects are checked for,
and processed, at the same time. (After which, if any applied, there will
be -another- check for them, repeating until there's a check where none
actually apply.) All three will go back to the graveyard at the same time.

(How to prevent this? Have some creature card in your graveyard that's _not_
a Spirit...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:33:00 -0500, Chris Mattern
<matternc@comcast.net> wrote:

>Terry Detrie wrote:
>
>> First the rulings on three cards involved
>>
>> Revenant, 4B
>> Creature - Spirit
>> Flying, */*
>> Revenant’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of
>> creature cards in your graveyard.
>>
>> Kokusho, the Evening Star
>> Legendary Creature - Dragon Spirit
>> Flying, 5/5
>> When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
>> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>>
>> Patriarch's Bidding
>> Sorcery
>> 3BB
>>
>> Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature
>> cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to play.
>>
>> *** *** ***
>>
>> Consider a Spirit deck with the a handful of Spirits, including 1
>> Revenant and 2 Kokusho, in the graveyard. If I play Patriarch's
>> Bidding and choose Spirit, the Revenant is a 0/0 creature because
>> there aren't any creatures in my grave, and the Kokusho kill each
>> other because of Legend rule. As far as I can recall these are both
>> state-based effects.
>
>Yes, that's right.
>>
>> My question: am I allowed to put the Kokusho into grave first, which
>> would then spare my Revenant (now a 2/2 creature)?
>>
>>
>
>From the Comprehensive Rulebook:
>
>420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of Spells
>and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for
>state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single event, then
>the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have been generated,
>triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the appropriate player gets
>priority. This check is also made during the cleanup step (see rule 314); if
>any of the listed conditions apply, the active player receives priority.
>
>The rule is that when you check SBEs and have more than one, they all
>resolve at once; you don't get to do one "first". So your Revenant,
>unfortunately, doesn't get to live. But look on the bright side; you've
>just made your opponent lose 10 life and you gained 10 life.


I figured that...I was being greedy
Thanks for the clarification.