Volrath's Laboratory and Shrines

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OK, time for people to explain just why my next deck idea
won't work ... ;)

I am wondering whether the various Hondens from
Champions of Kamigawa could interact well with Volrath's
Laboratory:

Volrath's Laboratory Artifact 5
When you play Volrath's Laboratory, choose a color and a
creature type.
5+T: Put into play a 2/2 token creature of the chosen color
and creature type.

Could I choose the creature type 'Shrine'? If not, why not? If so,
could I combine that with, say, the Honden of Seeing Winds to generate
an impressive card-drawing engine?

Honden of Seeing Winds Legendary Enchantment -
Shrine U4
At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card for each Shrine
you control.
 
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Because "shrine" is not one of the type of CREATURE that you can choose.

See "creature type" into the comprehensive rule under the glossary
for the list of creature you can choose from.


Abner Mintz wrote:
> OK, time for people to explain just why my next deck idea
> won't work ... ;)
>
> I am wondering whether the various Hondens from
> Champions of Kamigawa could interact well with Volrath's
> Laboratory:
>
> Volrath's Laboratory Artifact 5
> When you play Volrath's Laboratory, choose a color and a
> creature type.
> 5+T: Put into play a 2/2 token creature of the chosen color
> and creature type.
>
> Could I choose the creature type 'Shrine'? If not, why not? If so,
> could I combine that with, say, the Honden of Seeing Winds to generate
> an impressive card-drawing engine?
>
> Honden of Seeing Winds Legendary Enchantment -
> Shrine U4
> At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card for each Shrine
> you control.
 
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Abner Mintz wrote:

> OK, time for people to explain just why my next deck idea
> won't work ... ;)

Glad to oblige :)
>
> I am wondering whether the various Hondens from
> Champions of Kamigawa could interact well with Volrath's
> Laboratory:
>
> Volrath's Laboratory Artifact 5
> When you play Volrath's Laboratory, choose a color and a
> creature type.
> 5+T: Put into play a 2/2 token creature of the chosen color
> and creature type.
>
> Could I choose the creature type 'Shrine'?

No.

> If not, why not?

Because you can only choose creature types that exist. There is
no creature of type "Shrine". There are *enchantments* of type
Shrine, but that doesn't count.

> If so,
> could I combine that with, say, the Honden of Seeing Winds to generate
> an impressive card-drawing engine?
>
> Honden of Seeing Winds Legendary Enchantment -
> Shrine U4
> At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card for each Shrine
> you control.

If it could choose "Shrine", it would indeed make such a card-drawing
engine out of your Honden that you would have to be careful about not
decking yourself. Alas, it doesn't work.

Having destroyed your idea, I'll offer one of my own that I just
thought of. Mirror Gallery + multiple Hondens of Seeing Winds
(and maybe other Hondens as well). Two blue Hondens means four
cards a turn. Three means nine cards. If you can get all four,
that's sixteen. Now, what other Legendaries can you really
abuse by having more than one of...?

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:23:41 GMT, Abner Mintz <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>OK, time for people to explain just why my next deck idea won't work ... ;)
>
>I am wondering whether the various Hondens from
> Champions of Kamigawa could interact well with Volrath's
> Laboratory:
>
>Volrath's Laboratory Artifact 5
> When you play Volrath's Laboratory, choose a color and a creature type.
> 5+T: Put into play a 2/2 token creature of the chosen color and creature
> type.

Without reading further: "Shrine" isn't a creature type, it's an enchantment
type. It can't be chosen as a creature type.

>Could I choose the creature type 'Shrine'? If not, why not?

Okay, _thought_ that's what you might want to do. No, you can't, for the same
reason(s) you can't choose "Arcane", "Mountain", "Continuous", "Equipment",
or "Truck"; none of those are legal creature types. There's a list of creature
types in the Glossary of the rulebook ... though the currently-posted rulebook
is missing "Mime", "Expansion-Symbol", and "Penguin", all from Unhinged. (Note:
"Expansion-Symbol" is legal; "Expansion" and "Symbol" are not.)

When asked to choose a creature type, or a card name, you have to choose from
among the existing types/names. Similarly, there's only five basic land types
and five colors to choose from, if asked to choose one of those...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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abnermintz@earthlink.net (Abner Mintz) writes:
> Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Because you can only choose creature types that exist. There is no
>> creature of type "Shrine". There are *enchantments* of type
>> Shrine, but that doesn't count.
>
> I was afraid this would be the answer - which leads to question
> number two: what happens if a Honden is in play with Opalescence?

,----[ Oracle <http://gatherer.wizards.com> ]
| Opalescence
| 2WW
| Enchantment
| Each other global enchantment is a creature with power and toughness
| each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment.
`----

It becomes a creature, as well as still being an enchantment of
subtype Shrine.

> It was an enchantment with type 'Shrine', now it is a creature
> without that type? How exactly does that work? Does the
> Opalescence wipe out the Honden's type, since it is a creature and
> that creature type doesn't exist? Or does it have that creature
> type even though that creature type doesn't exist?

Each card type has its own set of possible subtypes. Enchantments can
have subtype Shrine. Artifacts can have subtype Equipment. Land can
have subtype Locus. These subtypes are disjoint sets, and each is tied
to a particular card type.

One could in theory have a permanent that was an "Artifact Creature
Land Enchantment -- Equipment Goblin Forest Shrine", although I'm not
sure if existing cards let one do that. (I'm sure you can come pretty
close, at least.) It might more accurately be written as something
like "(Artifact -- Equipment) (Creature -- Goblin) (Land -- Forest)
(Enchantment -- Shrine)".

No when you animate a Honden with Opalescence, it becomes a
"(Creature) (Enchantment -- Shrine)"

> It's hard to see how a creature type can be considered illegal if a
> two-card combo can make it exist. :) This actually has game effects
> either way, since one way means that you would have a creature with
> type Shrine (and it's then hard to argue that it is an illegal type)
> and the other way the Opalescence shuts down the Honden's ability.

No, either of those happen.

> I may be totally wrong here, but it seems to me that a good case
> could be made that they should add the Shrine and Locus types
> to the list of legal creature types.

Nope. They're just on the list of legal Enchantment and Land types.

--
Peter C.
"Data! That was *not* funny!"
-- Geordi, Star Trek: Generations
 
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Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
> Because you can only choose creature types that exist. There is
> no creature of type "Shrine". There are *enchantments* of type
> Shrine, but that doesn't count.

I was afraid this would be the answer - which leads to question number
two: what happens if a Honden is in play with Opalescence? It
was an enchantment with type 'Shrine', now it is a creature without
that type? How exactly does that work? Does the Opalescence
wipe out the Honden's type, since it is a creature and that creature
type doesn't exist? Or does it have that creature type even though
that creature type doesn't exist? It's hard to see how a creature
type can be considered illegal if a two-card combo can make it
exist. :) This actually has game effects either way, since one way
means that you would have a creature with type Shrine (and it's
then hard to argue that it is an illegal type) and the other way
the Opalescence shuts down the Honden's ability.

You could ask the same with Myr Landshaper and the Locus type
- if you turn a Cloudpost into a creature, does it become a creature
without a type or does it become a creature with the Locus type?
One way, it loses its special ability and the other way it becomes
a creature with type Locus, and then why couldn't you have other
creatures with type Locus?

I may be totally wrong here, but it seems to me that a good case
could be made that they should add the Shrine and Locus types
to the list of legal creature types.
 
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:53:44 GMT, Abner Mintz <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Because you can only choose creature types that exist. There is
>> no creature of type "Shrine". There are *enchantments* of type
>> Shrine, but that doesn't count.
>
>I was afraid this would be the answer - which leads to question number
> two: what happens if a Honden is in play with Opalescence? It
> was an enchantment with type 'Shrine', now it is a creature without
> that type?

Nope. It is now an enchantment creature. (Because Opalescence says it's still
an enchantment.) It still, thus, has its enchantment type "Shrine"; it does
not have any creature type, because it doesn't say it has one in case it
becomes a creature, and Opalescence doesn't give it one.

> How exactly does that work? Does the Opalescence
> wipe out the Honden's type, since it is a creature and that creature
> type doesn't exist? Or does it have that creature type even though
> that creature type doesn't exist?

Neither one. "Shrine" is not a creature type; it's an enchantment type.
Opalescence's effect doesn't stop it being an enchantment, so it doesn't
LOSE "Shrine" as its enchantment type. But it will have no creature type at
all; being an enchantment creature with enchantment type Shrine does NOT make
Shrine into a creature type somehow.

>You could ask the same with Myr Landshaper and the Locus type
> - if you turn a Cloudpost into a creature, does it become a creature
> without a type or does it become a creature with the Locus type?

Neither. It becomes a _land artifact_ (read the Landshaper, it has nothing to
do with creature-ness, though you may be thinking of Mishra's Groundbreaker,
which DOES do what you want) which still has permanent type land and still
has land type Locus. It does not gain any artifact type in the process. If
you used the Groundbreaker instead to turn it into a land _creature_,
it would become a land creature with land type Locus and no creature type.
Again, becoming a land creature with a retained land type does NOT turn the
land type, magically, into a creature type.

> One way, it loses its special ability and the other way it becomes
> a creature with type Locus, and then why couldn't you have other
> creatures with type Locus?

Neither 'way' actually happens, as the rulebook notes in a couple of places.

>I may be totally wrong here, but it seems to me that a good case
> could be made that they should add the Shrine and Locus types
> to the list of legal creature types.

Nope. One is an enchantment type; the other is a land type. There is NO WAY
to make either into a creature type; it is certainly possible for there to
be a permanent in play that's got permanent type creature that has one or
the other as one of its subtypes ... but it won't be a CREATURE subtype.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooperjr.name> wrote:

> One could in theory have a permanent that was an "Artifact Creature
> Land Enchantment -- Equipment Goblin Forest Shrine", although I'm not
> sure if existing cards let one do that. (I'm sure you can come pretty
> close, at least.) It might more accurately be written as something
> like "(Artifact -- Equipment) (Creature -- Goblin) (Land -- Forest)
> (Enchantment -- Shrine)".

Artifact Creature Enchantment Land -- Goblin Forest is possible:
Mishra's Factory, Assembly-Worker, Copy Artifact, Assembly-Worker, Blood
Moon, Magical Hack, Artificial Evolution.

There is no way to combine two of Land, Artifact -- Equipment,
Enchantment -- Shrine. Any one of those will always have a name to
match.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 

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Abner Mintz sez:
<<
> OK, time for people to explain just why my next deck idea
> won't work ... ;)
>
> I am wondering whether the various Hondens from
> Champions of Kamigawa could interact well with Volrath's
> Laboratory:
>
> Volrath's Laboratory Artifact 5
> When you play Volrath's Laboratory, choose a color and a
> creature type.
> 5+T: Put into play a 2/2 token creature of the chosen color
> and creature type.
>
> Could I choose the creature type 'Shrine'? If not, why not? If so,
> could I combine that with, say, the Honden of Seeing Winds to
generate
> an impressive card-drawing engine?
>
> Honden of Seeing Winds Legendary Enchantment -
> Shrine U4
> At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card for each
Shrine
> you control.
>>

No, you can't produce Shrine creature tokens with the Lab, because
'Shrine' isn't a creature type. Similarly, you can't produce purple
creature tokens with the Lab, because 'purple' isn't a color. (At
least, not in the Magic world...)