Damage Redirection

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi folks!

I'd like to get some confirmation/correction for the following scenario:
Player A attacks with a green 4/4 creature. Player D blocks with a white
2/2 creature. These are the only creatures in play. The damage is
assigned and put on the stack.

Case I:
D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting the 4/4 creature to
receive the redirected damage.

Shining Shoal
XWW
Instant — Arcane
You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player
instead.

aI) Shining Shoal is still on the stack. A plays Terror targeting the
2/2 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen
source of damage is the 4/4 creature. Will the combat damage still be
redirected to the 4/4 creature? - I'd say no, because the combat damage
can't be dealt at all (419.6c).

bI) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
bIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
would be the same situation as aI) - no damage will be redirected.
bIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Combat
damage resolves, but can't be redirected to the (now missing) creature.
So the 2/2 creature receives four points of combat damage.

Case II:
Instead of case I, D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting A
to receive the redirected damage.

aII) Shining Shoal is still on the stack.
aIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves.
Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen source of damage is the 4/4
creature. That will be aI) again - no damage will be redirected.
aIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Shining Shoal resolves,
and the chosen source of damage has to be the 2/2 creature. But the 2/2
creature will not deal any damage to D or a creature he/she controls.
So, combat damage will not be redirected to A and the 2/2 creature
receives four points of combat damage.
aIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal
resolves. D can't name a source of damage to be redirected. Shining
Shoal isn't countered on resolution, but will fail to do anything?
Combat damage will not be redirected?

bII) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
bIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
would be the same as aI) again - no damage will be redirected.
bIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When
the combat damage resolves, four points of damage will be redirected to
A (because of last known information)?
bIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When combat
damage resolves, will there still be four points of damage redirected to
A? - I'd say no again, combat damage can't be dealt.

Thanks,
Martin

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> wrote:
>I'd like to get some confirmation/correction for the following scenario:
>Player A attacks with a green 4/4 creature. Player D blocks with a white
>2/2 creature. These are the only creatures in play. The damage is
>assigned and put on the stack.

Okay. Combat damage on the stack; 4 from the 4/4 to the 2/2, and 2 from the
2/2 to the 4/4.

>Case I:
>D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting the 4/4 creature to
>receive the redirected damage.
>
>Shining Shoal XWW Instant - Arcane
>You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
>the game rather than pay ~'s mana cost. / The next X damage that a source of
>your choice would deal to you or a creature you control this turn is dealt to
>target creature or player instead.

Um, okay. Assuming D also, on resolution, chooses the 4/4 as the -source- of
the damage to be redirected...

>aI) Shining Shoal is still on the stack. A plays Terror targeting the
>2/2 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen
>source of damage is the 4/4 creature. Will the combat damage still be
>redirected to the 4/4 creature? - I'd say no, because the combat damage
>can't be dealt at all (419.6c).

Correct. If the creature (or player) the damage was _going to_ be dealt to
is no longer there, the shield does get made (on resolution of the Shoal)
but doesn't do anything later when it tries to redirect the damage (on
resolution of combat damage). The 4 damage can't get dealt at all, and can't
get "dealt there instead of here" because it's not getting "dealt here" in
the first place. Correct rule quote, too (though that rule really ought to
also say something about players).

Note that the Shining Shoal DOES resolve - it doesn't target the 2/2, just
the 4/4 - and does create the shield, as the 4/4 is a legal source to choose.
It's just that the shield doesn't do anything while combat damage is resolving;
it waits around until some damage DOES get dealt this turn to D or a creature
D controls.

>bI) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
>damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
>bIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
>would be the same situation as aI) - no damage will be redirected.

Right. No 2/2 -> no 4 damage can get dealt -> no 4 damage can get dealt
elsewhere-instead.

>bIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Combat
>damage resolves, but can't be redirected to the (now missing) creature.
>So the 2/2 creature receives four points of combat damage.

Correct, again, and again this uses 419.6c; the damage can't get dealt
elsewhere-instead if "elsewhere" is no longer a creature/player.

>Case II:
>Instead of case I, D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting A
>to receive the redirected damage.
>
>aII) Shining Shoal is still on the stack.
>aIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves.
>Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen source of damage is the 4/4
>creature. That will be aI) again - no damage will be redirected.

Correct. Again, the 2/2 is missing, so the damage can't get dealt, so can't
get dealt elsewhere-instead.

>aIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Shining Shoal resolves,
>and the chosen source of damage has to be the 2/2 creature.

No - there's at least two other choosable sources, even with only the above
information. 1) The Shoal itself is a spell on the stack, so qualifies as
a choosable source. (It's not done resolving yet.) 2) The combat damage is
an object on the stack, and refers to both the 4/4 and the 2/2, so the 4/4 _is_
still choosable. Yes, it's gone, but that doesn't stop you from NOW picking it
as a source to prevent damage from, or else tricks with "sacrifice a creature"
as part of an activation cost for an ability active player controlled would
be possible.

(In this case, the Shoal doesn't get countered, because it was targetting A,
not the 4/4.)

>But the 2/2
>creature will not deal any damage to D or a creature he/she controls.
>So, combat damage will not be redirected to A and the 2/2 creature
>receives four points of combat damage.

If the 2/2 is chosen as the source, correct. (Also if the Shoal is chosen as
the source.)

But if the 4/4 is chosen as the source? In this case the 4/4 _is_ going to be
dealing damage to a creature D controls; the target of the Shoal is legal and
still a creature/player; the 2/2 is still there; so the damage ends up on A.
Ow.

>aIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
>plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal
>resolves. D can't name a source of damage to be redirected. Shining
>Shoal isn't countered on resolution, but will fail to do anything?

Well, the Shoal spell itself is choosable as a source. But if for some reason
there's _no_ choosable source - a Circle of Protection's ability was used, and
in response every permanent was removed from play, and there's nothing else on
the stack - the shield gets made but doesn't have a source chosen to prevent
damage from, so Does Nothing, lasts until end of turn, and quietly expires
then. This does do _something_, but doesn't do anything that affects anything,
if you see the slight difference.

>Combat damage will not be redirected?

Combat damage will not be redirected, if a source it's coming from can't be
chosen. (The Shoal can be chosen ... but won't _itself_ be dealing any damage;
redirecting the damage does NOT mean the damage is now coming "from the
Shoal"... so in that case, the shield gets made for X=4, but sits around until
end of turn and doesn't do anything.)

>bII) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
>damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
>bIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
>would be the same as aI) again - no damage will be redirected.

Yep. Missing 2/2 -> can't deal damage "elsewhere instead".

>bIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When
>the combat damage resolves, four points of damage will be redirected to
>A (because of last known information)?

Yes. The combat damage knows what its source is, and how _much_ is being dealt;
killing the 4/4 in response doesn't change that. The Shoal shield says "Deal
that 4 damage to A instead of to the 2/2"; the 2/2 and A are both still there;
so the shield Works, and A takes 4 to the head. Ow. (LKI isn't actually needed
here, because the Shoal doesn't ask anything about where the damage was _from_
other than its source, and the source didn't change when the 4/4 was killed.)

>bIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
>plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When combat
>damage resolves, will there still be four points of damage redirected to
>A? - I'd say no again, combat damage can't be dealt.

Correct again; no 2/2 == can't take the damage that isn't getting dealt to the
2/2 and deal it elsewhere instead.

Dave "whew" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

a few things

1- To play Shining Shoal the damage nust already be on the stack.
Because if it's not the when the spell will resolve the the damage
will already be dealt, and there will be nothing to redirect.

Now that is clear then

2- i) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting the 4/4.
Player A do nothing.
the 4/4 creature dies. the 2/2 creature is blocked.

ii) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting the 4/4
a) If player A Terror the 2/2 creature both creature are gone
b) If player A Terror the 4/4 creature both creature are gone
because Shining Shoal will be counter/fizzle.

iii) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting player A.
Player A do nothing.
the 4/4 creature receive 2 of damage which is not lethal.
the 2/2 creature is blocked. Player A is dealt 4 of damage.

iv) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting Player A.
If Player A Terror one of the creature, that creature is gone and
4 of damage is dealt to player A.




Martin Golm wrote:
> Hi folks!
>
> I'd like to get some confirmation/correction for the following scenario:
> Player A attacks with a green 4/4 creature. Player D blocks with a white
> 2/2 creature. These are the only creatures in play. The damage is
> assigned and put on the stack.
>
> Case I:
> D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting the 4/4 creature to
> receive the redirected damage.
>
> Shining Shoal
> XWW
> Instant — Arcane
> You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
> the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
> The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
> creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player
> instead.
>
> aI) Shining Shoal is still on the stack. A plays Terror targeting the
> 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen
> source of damage is the 4/4 creature. Will the combat damage still be
> redirected to the 4/4 creature? - I'd say no, because the combat damage
> can't be dealt at all (419.6c).
>
> bI) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
> damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
> bIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
> would be the same situation as aI) - no damage will be redirected.
> bIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Combat
> damage resolves, but can't be redirected to the (now missing) creature.
> So the 2/2 creature receives four points of combat damage.
>
> Case II:
> Instead of case I, D plays Shining Shoal with X set to four, targeting A
> to receive the redirected damage.
>
> aII) Shining Shoal is still on the stack.
> aIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves.
> Shining Shoal resolves, and the chosen source of damage is the 4/4
> creature. That will be aI) again - no damage will be redirected.
> aIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Shining Shoal resolves,
> and the chosen source of damage has to be the 2/2 creature. But the 2/2
> creature will not deal any damage to D or a creature he/she controls.
> So, combat damage will not be redirected to A and the 2/2 creature
> receives four points of combat damage.
> aIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
> plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. Shining Shoal
> resolves. D can't name a source of damage to be redirected. Shining
> Shoal isn't countered on resolution, but will fail to do anything?
> Combat damage will not be redirected?
>
> bII) Shining Shoal resolves. D choses the 4/4 creature as the source of
> damage. Before the combat damage resolves,
> bIIa) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. This
> would be the same as aI) again - no damage will be redirected.
> bIIb) A plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When
> the combat damage resolves, four points of damage will be redirected to
> A (because of last known information)?
> bIIc) A plays Terror targeting the 2/2 creature. Terror resolves. A
> plays Terror targeting the 4/4 creature. Terror resolves. When combat
> damage resolves, will there still be four points of damage redirected to
> A? - I'd say no again, combat damage can't be dealt.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Carl Joly" <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:26rQd.32134$Sw6.1023820@weber.videotron.net...
> a few things
>
> 1- To play Shining Shoal the damage nust already be on the stack.
> Because if it's not the when the spell will resolve the the damage
> will already be dealt, and there will be nothing to redirect.
Wrong - Shining Shoal does NOT redirect the damage on resolution, it just
creates a "redirection shield" which waits for the next time the chosen
source tries to deal damage (in this case - during combat damage resolution)
and redirects it to the creature or player, which was the target of Shining
Shoal spell as it resolved.

You can play Shining Shoal during declare blockers (or even attackers) step
and still have it work during combat damage step. Prevention and damage
redirection effects have been working like this since (i think) 6th edition
rules and the introduction of the stack.

Regards,
Arkady.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:23:37 -0500, Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:
>a few things
>
>1- To play Shining Shoal the damage nust already be on the stack.

Not correct.

> Because if it's not the when the spell will resolve the the damage
> will already be dealt, and there will be nothing to redirect.

All this says is that you can't play the Shoal _after_ the damage has been
resolved, and expect it to retroactively do anything. You're perfectly well
allowed to play it during declare-blockers step, AFTER you know what blocked
what as that step started, but BEFORE combat damage goes on the stack at all
as combat-damage step starts. So you can play it BEFORE combat damage goes
on the stack just fine, though if you do there's still time to change what
combat damage will go on the stack and how much, by various means.

>2- i) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting the 4/4.
> Player A do nothing.
> the 4/4 creature dies. the 2/2 creature is blocked.

Yes. The damage from the 4/4 gets dealt to the 4/4 instead of to the 2/2
D controls.

> ii) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting the 4/4
> a) If player A Terror the 2/2 creature both creature are gone

Nope. If the 2/2 is not there when the Shoal shield would be USED - as
combat damage gets dealt? No damage CAN get dealt to it, because it's not
there. In such cases, a shield that would say "Deal the damage that would
get dealt to this 2/2 over HERE instead" doesn't do anything; the damage
isn't getting dealt to the missing 2/2 in the first place, so can't "get
dealt elsewhere instead".

> b) If player A Terror the 4/4 creature both creature are gone
> because Shining Shoal will be counter/fizzle.

Again, no. If A does this _in response_ to the Shoal, sure, since this Shoal
targets the 4/4. But if A waits until the Shoal resolves, then Terrors the
4/4 before combat damage resolves, the Shoal will already have resolved. The
shield will now find it can't 'redirect' the damage because the creature it
would send it TO is missing, so the damage gets dealt to the 2/2; so yes, both
creatures die, but NOT "because the Shoal is retroactively countered".

> iii) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting player A.
> Player A do nothing.
> the 4/4 creature receive 2 of damage which is not lethal.

(Yes, good point, which nobody was paying attention to; if the 4/4 is there,
it _is_ going to get the combat damage _from_ the 2/2 regardless of what D's
Shoal may do.)

> the 2/2 creature is blocked. Player A is dealt 4 of damage.

Yes.

> iv) Player D plays Shining Shoal targeting Player A.
> If Player A Terror one of the creature, that creature is gone and
> 4 of damage is dealt to player A.

Depends which creature gets Terrored. If the 4/4 is Terrored, its combat damage
is already on the stack in your scenario, so gets redirected to A; if the 2/2
is Terrored, the damage from the 4/4 can't get dealt at all, so doesn't "go
instead to A", just as above. Also depends WHEN the Shoal and Terror were
cast; if the Shoal was cast BEFORE combat damage was on the stack, and the
Terror was too, then in this case Terroring either creature means no combat
damage WILL GET put on the stack at all, so none can later be redirected.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

You are right.

I'm so used to play in a certain way, that I forget that those shield
continue to take effect even if the stack is empty.

A question:

Is there a reason/scenario why someone should play Shining Shoal
before damage is on the stack ?

Arkady Zilberberg wrote:
> "Carl Joly" <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:26rQd.32134$Sw6.1023820@weber.videotron.net...
>
>>a few things
>>
>>1- To play Shining Shoal the damage nust already be on the stack.
>> Because if it's not the when the spell will resolve the the damage
>> will already be dealt, and there will be nothing to redirect.
>
> Wrong - Shining Shoal does NOT redirect the damage on resolution, it just
> creates a "redirection shield" which waits for the next time the chosen
> source tries to deal damage (in this case - during combat damage resolution)
> and redirects it to the creature or player, which was the target of Shining
> Shoal spell as it resolved.
>
> You can play Shining Shoal during declare blockers (or even attackers) step
> and still have it work during combat damage step. Prevention and damage
> redirection effects have been working like this since (i think) 6th edition
> rules and the introduction of the stack.
>
> Regards,
> Arkady.
>
>

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:
>You are right.
>
>I'm so used to play in a certain way, that I forget that those shield
>continue to take effect even if the stack is empty.
>
>A question:
>
>Is there a reason/scenario why someone should play Shining Shoal
>before damage is on the stack ?

Usually not, but one or more of the resources one might be using to play
it with might be about to abruptly disappear, in which case you might want to
play it then before it becomes impossible later.

(Usually here I don't really ask "_why_ would you want to do that?", I just
note that it's possible or not possible. It turns out that for almost any
scenario, however convoluted, it's possible to come up with some enclosing
scenario in which the actions being asked about are in fact a good idea for
some reason...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.