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"Almost Gone" - John Carter's take on the white Genju

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Anonymous
February 27, 2005 10:08:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Okay, so in the most recent installment of Saturday School
on the magicthegathering.com website, John Carter stated
that

| if you repeatedly activate Genju of the Fields, it will get the
| "Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"
| text multiple times.

I don't understand why this is the case. The card's text doesn't
say "gains" but "becomes", so this is characteristics-setting text,
right? Activating the white Genju multiple times would overwrite
the previous state time and again, each resolution turning the
land into a 2/5 white Spirit creature with exactly one instance
of the "spirit link"-ability. Or what am I missing?

Thanks for any information on this.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 10:08:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Reinhard Schilmöller <schilmo@uni-muenster.de> writes:
> Okay, so in the most recent installment of Saturday School
> on the magicthegathering.com website, John Carter stated
> that
>
> | if you repeatedly activate Genju of the Fields, it will get the
> | "Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"
> | text multiple times.

Yup.

> I don't understand why this is the case. The card's text doesn't
> say "gains" but "becomes", so this is characteristics-setting text,
> right?

Nope. The word "becomes" isn't one of the Magic words that does this,
and the Genju is affecting another object here anyway.

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules <http://www.wizards.com/magic/welcome.asp&gt; ]
| 405.2. Some objects have static abilities which state that the
| object "has" one or more abilities or characteristic values;
| "is" a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color; or that one or
| more of its characteristics "is" or "are" a particular value. These
| abilities are characteristic-setting abilities. Abilities of an
| object that affect the characteristics of another object are not
| characteristic-setting abilities. See rule 201, "Characteristics,"
| and rule 418.5a.
`----

> Activating the white Genju multiple times would overwrite the
> previous state time and again, each resolution turning the land into
> a 2/5 white Spirit creature with exactly one instance of the "spirit
> link"-ability. Or what am I missing?

Each activation sets the power/toughness to 2/5, sets the color to
white, sets the type to creature (although keeping old types due to
the later "It's still a land"), sets the creature type to Spirit, and
gives it the "Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much
life." ability. Unlike the other things it does in the same sentence,
giving something an ability doesn't remove all the old abilities.
(After all, the old "{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool" ability is still
there, isn't it?)

> Thanks for any information on this.

I hope that this helped, and hopefully others will be able to explain
it even better. Please post again if you have any more questions.

--
Peter C.
"The corn muffin shall be the official muffin of the commonwealth."
-- Mass. General Law, Chapter 2, Section 28.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 10:08:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Reinhard Schilmöller <schilmo@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>Okay, so in the most recent installment of Saturday School
>on the magicthegathering.com website, John Carter stated
>that
>
>| if you repeatedly activate Genju of the Fields, it will get the
>| "Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"
>| text multiple times.
>
>I don't understand why this is the case. The card's text doesn't
>say "gains" but "becomes", so this is characteristics-setting text,
>right?

Nope. Why? Because it is not doing anything to the _Genju enchantment_.
Characteristic-setting text, by definition, has to be setting the
characteristics of the object it's on (405.2). The Genju enchantment's
ability is making the Plains become something-or-other, so this is not
a characteristic-setting ability, or characteristic-setting text.

>Activating the white Genju multiple times would overwrite
>the previous state time and again,

Yes. But: the effect does not say it -loses- any -previous- abilities. The
rulebook does say the color gets overwritten (Glossary, 'Color'), and the
power and toughness are obviously overwriting the previous values (if any),
not adding a new power and toughness alongside the current one. But nothing
says this about abilities; using a Genju ability on enchanted land doesn't
take away that land's _mana_ abilities, for example.

>each resolution turning the
>land into a 2/5 white Spirit creature with exactly one instance
>of the "spirit link"-ability. Or what am I missing?

You're missing that it's not a char-setting ability, and is not removing
previous instances of this ability the land (creature) may have - or any
other ability it may have either.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 4:34:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>>| if you repeatedly activate Genju of the Fields, it will get the
>>| "Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life"
>>| text multiple times.
>>
>>I don't understand why this is the case. The card's text doesn't
>>say "gains" but "becomes", so this is characteristics-setting text,
>>right?
>
> Nope. Why? Because it is not doing anything to the _Genju enchantment_.
> Characteristic-setting text, by definition, has to be setting the
> characteristics of the object it's on (405.2). The Genju enchantment's
> ability is making the Plains become something-or-other, so this is not
> a characteristic-setting ability, or characteristic-setting text.

And if 2 Essence Slivers in play, all Slivers have 2 instances of the
"Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" ability. And
I gain 2 life for each point of life my Sliver deals. Right? If so, this
example might be easier for people to grasp. If not... please explain why
the difference between Essence Sliver & Genju of the Fields.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:15:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:34:24 -0500, Giant Giant <nosp@m> wrote:
>> Nope. Why? Because it is not doing anything to the _Genju enchantment_.
>> Characteristic-setting text, by definition, has to be setting the
>> characteristics of the object it's on (405.2). The Genju enchantment's
>> ability is making the Plains become something-or-other, so this is not
>> a characteristic-setting ability, or characteristic-setting text.
>
>And if 2 Essence Slivers in play, all Slivers have 2 instances of the
>"Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life" ability.

Well, no. Look at Essence Sliver:

Essence Sliver 3W Creature - Sliver
3/3 Whenever a Sliver deals damage, its controller gains that much life.

This, unlike almost all other Slivers, doesn't give something _to all
other Slivers_.

However, if two of these are out, each one has a separate instance of the
triggered ability which is -watching for- any Sliver to deal damage, and
both will trigger off of that, and you'll end up gaining twice the damage
in life. But the abilities are not _on the Sliver dealing damage itself_ here.

>And I gain 2 life for each point of life my Sliver deals. Right?

Each point of damage, and you end up gaining twice the damage, right.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!