Orb of Dreams

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Orb of Dreams
3
Artifact
Permanents come into play tapped.

Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
410.10e applies to it.

410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

Thanks,
Martin

 

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Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> wrote:
>Orb of Dreams 3 Artifact
>Permanents come into play tapped.
>
>Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
>410.10e applies to it.

As far as I can tell, yes.

>410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
>into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
>permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
>tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
>effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

It is not included among these, as it does not specifically read "Orb of
Dreams comes into play tapped".

However, as part of coming into play, you do have to apply all applicable
continuous effects. And one of them is going to be the effect from Orb of
Dreams itself. We already have a few other things that say "<other stuff> come
into play tapped" - Kismet, Uphill Battle, and Root Maze. The effects of these
clearly get to apply to relevant <other stuff> as part of the <other
stuff> coming into play - it's been ruled almost Forever that Kismet does not
make stuff come into play, THEN tap once it's in play, for example. And
thus Orb of Dreams should follow this example; it should apply to stuff that
is coming into play. In particular, it should apply to stuff that is coming
into play at the same time it is doing so - it will have its continuous
effect "on" already at the time things are having such continuous effects
applied to them, and this is specifically NOT any sort of replacement effect
- and it is itself a permanent, one which is obviously coming into play at
the same time as itself. From this admittedly long chain of reasoning, I
find it should affect its own coming into play, and make itself come into
play tapped.

Note that this in no way means it's paradoxical - it works the same whether or
not it's tapped, since it doesn't SAY "As long as Orb of Dreams is untapped,
....". But yes, this does apply slightly later than the "<This> comes into
play tapped" text that many permanents have, because it's NOT one of the
things 410.10e is talking about (and those things are Ruled to come into play
tapped even if some continuous effect is waiting in play that will make them
come into play without any abilities), but is instead grouped with Kismet,
Uphill Battle, and Root Maze, which have fairly ordinary static abilities
whose continuous effects get applied after "before / with / as / self-tapping"
but before you check to see what triggers, along with any other continuous
effects.

In short: it applies the same "time" Kismet would; its effect can affect
itself, unlike Kismet; it certainly affects other things that come into play
at the same time it does; and I see no reason why it would NOT affect itself
too.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Martin Golm wrote:

>Orb of Dreams
>3
>Artifact
>Permanents come into play tapped.
>
>Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
>410.10e applies to it.
>
>410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
>into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
>permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
>tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
>effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

Orb of Dreams ability only applies once it's in play. Otherwise it would
*also* include text that says "Orb of Dreams comes into play tapped."

Gene P.


--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Permanents come into play tapped" is a static ability.

405.1. State that your permanent need to be in play for your static
ability to apply, which is not the case because you are casting it.

It will apply to all permanents cast after Orb of Dreams.

Carl


Martin Golm wrote:
> Orb of Dreams
> 3
> Artifact
> Permanents come into play tapped.
>
> Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
> 410.10e applies to it.
>
> 410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
> into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
> permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
> tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
> effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin

 

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Carl Joly <palomides@videotron.ca> wrote:
>"Permanents come into play tapped" is a static ability.
>
>405.1. State that your permanent need to be in play for your static
>ability to apply, which is not the case because you are casting it.

?? It is in the process of coming into play, as the artifact spell resolves.
That's the whole point of the question.

>It will apply to all permanents cast after Orb of Dreams.

Yep. It will ALSO apply to all permanents that come into play simultaneously
with Orb of Dreams, because by the time you get to the "apply continuous
effects" portion of coming into play (coming into play is a really complex
little process, with a lot of stuff hidden in it that's done in a very
specific order), _its_ continuous effect is already 'on'.
At this point in the process, we're past the stuff you do "before this comes
into play", the stuff you do "as this comes into play" or the stuff involved in
"this comes into play as", the stuff involved in "this comes into play with",
and the stuff that says "<This itself> comes into play tapped" - the things
that 410.10e, in his original question, is talking about, and are into the
"ordinary" continuous effects that 418.2 is talking about, 418.4b, and the
418.5* section. [...goodness this is starting to sound like tax laws, sorry.]
Orb of Dreams' effect applies in the same place in the process as Kismet,
Uphill Battle, or Root Maze ... as should be fairly obvious if you compare
wordings ... and all of -those- do have to see exactly what sort of thing
is coming into play to see if they apply. Orb of Dreams doesn't, but there's
no reason just because of that to say "it applies back with the self-tapping
stuff".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>>Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
>>410.10e applies to it.
>>
>>410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
>>into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
>>permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
>>tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
>>effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.
>
>Orb of Dreams ability only applies once it's in play.

Yes. And it is "in play", for the purposes of seeing whether its continuous
effects apply, _before_ you are finally and completely done processing
everything that has to be done on its coming into play. In particular, its
effect gets applied BEFORE you see what triggers off stuff coming into play.

> Otherwise it would
>*also* include text that says "Orb of Dreams comes into play tapped."

Why would it do THAT, since the rulebook tells you its continuous effect will
apply, and that it will look for continuous effects that apply to it, and
since the card text doesn't SAY it exempts itself from its own effect?

(In other words, since its continuous effect is already 'on' at the time
you apply 'all applicable continuous effects', why would it NOT apply to
itself? It doesn't have to SAY specifically it does, since it does naturally.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Time to step up the meds; I could have sworn David DeLaney just said...
> Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
> >>Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
> >>410.10e applies to it.
> >>
> >>410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes
> >>into play with ...," "As [this permanent] comes into play ...," "[This
> >>permanent] comes into play as ...," or "[This permanent] comes into play
> >>tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose
> >>effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.
> >
> >Orb of Dreams ability only applies once it's in play.
>
> Yes. And it is "in play", for the purposes of seeing whether its continuous
> effects apply, _before_ you are finally and completely done processing
> everything that has to be done on its coming into play. In particular, its
> effect gets applied BEFORE you see what triggers off stuff coming into play.
>
> > Otherwise it would
> >*also* include text that says "Orb of Dreams comes into play tapped."
>
> Why would it do THAT, since the rulebook tells you its continuous effect will
> apply, and that it will look for continuous effects that apply to it, and
> since the card text doesn't SAY it exempts itself from its own effect?
>
> (In other words, since its continuous effect is already 'on' at the time
> you apply 'all applicable continuous effects', why would it NOT apply to
> itself? It doesn't have to SAY specifically it does, since it does naturally.)

It's not obvious, though, even to people who know the rules well. (It
certainly wasn't to me - if you hadn't already answered I would have
gone to the rulebook, and recent history shows there's no guarantee I
would have hit the right passage even after a couple of searches.) It
probably deserved to at least get reminder text to this effect.

 

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Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>>(In other words, since its continuous effect is already 'on' at the time
>>you apply 'all applicable continuous effects', why would it NOT apply to
>>itself? It doesn't have to SAY specifically it does, since it does naturally.)
>
>It's not obvious, though, even to people who know the rules well.

Fair enough. It wasn't to me either , until I thought through it; oddly, it
wasn't a question I thought of as one that would arise for it, when first I saw
it. (I don't know why - usually I can reel off the basic half-dozen FAQs a
given card can be misunderstood into, from long experience with people
asking questions based on misunderstandings of one degree or another...)

>(It certainly wasn't to me - if you hadn't already answered I would have
>gone to the rulebook, and recent history shows there's no guarantee I
>would have hit the right passage even after a couple of searches.) It
>probably deserved to at least get reminder text to this effect.

It's possible it could. I'll add it to my (long-delayed) next summary... And
I do see, sort of, why people are getting it wrong - they're thinking it comes
into play first, sits there for a moment, THEN its abilities turn on, I think.
It's just that that particular mindset fails spectacularly with this particular
card...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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419.1c Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play
.. . ." or "[Objects] come into play . . ." are replacement effects.

Is this the reason that Orb of Dreams is treated like Coastal Tower
and Orb comes into play tapped? (I searched more than an hour today in
rules to find a solution for this problem...)

 

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Jeff Heikkinen schrieb:
> It's not obvious, though, even to people who know the rules well. (It
> certainly wasn't to me - if you hadn't already answered I would have
> gone to the rulebook, and recent history shows there's no guarantee I
> would have hit the right passage even after a couple of searches.) It
> probably deserved to at least get reminder text to this effect.

The question has its origin in a German Magic forum. I had the
impression, that the Orb would come into play tapped, but could not
prove it. All other answers (including answers from other judges) to the
question stated that the Orb would come into play untapped. And now they
ask, why the Orb comes into play tapped.

I had a look at the rules, and I did not find a reasonable answer, so I
asked here. Soon after I asked, I realized that 410.10e is not
appropriate. Later I discovered that 418.2 and 418.4 could be the rules
to apply, and David seems to confirm that (do you, David?).

Thanks,
Martin

 

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:08:48 +0100, Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> wrote:
>The question has its origin in a German Magic forum. I had the
>impression, that the Orb would come into play tapped, but could not
>prove it. All other answers (including answers from other judges) to the
>question stated that the Orb would come into play untapped. And now they
>ask, why the Orb comes into play tapped.
>
>I had a look at the rules, and I did not find a reasonable answer, so I
>asked here. Soon after I asked, I realized that 410.10e is not
>appropriate. Later I discovered that 418.2 and 418.4 could be the rules
>to apply, and David seems to confirm that (do you, David?).

Yes, I believe. 410.10e is specifically not right, because it's talking only
about things like Abandoned Outpost or Bronze Tablet, which put -themselves-
into play tapped, along with the other things it mentions where things say
what to do while putting themselves into play. The rulebook doesn't really
pull the whole comes-into-play process together in one place, even now -
but examining various parts of it, you can piece together that:

1) first you do replacement effects, which currently include "comes into play
as a copy of" and "as this comes into play" and 'comes into play with', and
the copy-card rules go into a bit more detail, meaning that if one of these
produces another one while being applied, the new one gets applied too
2) "this comes into play tapped" happens here too
3) once you've determined -what- exactly is coming into play, and in what
state it's trying to put itself into play, you apply ordinary continuous
effects, if any, including its own, to find out what it will look like once
it's in play; this is where Kismet applies, and by extension Orb of Dreams
4) once you've seen what it looks like once it's in play, you check to see
if anything triggers off such a thing coming into play (again, including its
own abilities)
5) whew, you're done, check state-based effects, put triggered abilities on
the stack, a player gets priority

418.2 and 418.4* cover parts of this; the Glossary entry covers parts of it;
the copy-card rules cover part of it; 410.10e covers its bit. Put all together
it looks like the above, as far as I know.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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In news:422ECE47.1DDCAEE1@gmx.de,
Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> rambled:
> Orb of Dreams
> 3
> Artifact
> Permanents come into play tapped.
>
> Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
> 410.10e applies to it.

I don't know how much this will settle the argument, as it's not "official",
but rather a regular ol' judge.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=9144

"Q: Does Orb of Dreams affect itself and thus come into play tapped?

A: No. That ability is a static ability that changes how permanents come
into play at the moment they come into play. Assuming that there is not
already an Orb of Dreams in play, then when an Orb of Dreams spell resolves
and it enters play the effect from this static ability is not in effect yet.
This also means that if Orb of Dreams and other permanents would come into
play at the same time that those other permanents will come into play
untapped."

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

 

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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:34:45 -0500, Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>> Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure whether
>> 410.10e applies to it.
>
>I don't know how much this will settle the argument, as it's not "official",
>but rather a regular ol' judge.
>
>http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=9144
>
>"Q: Does Orb of Dreams affect itself and thus come into play tapped?
>
>A: No. That ability is a static ability that changes how permanents come
>into play at the moment they come into play. Assuming that there is not
>already an Orb of Dreams in play, then when an Orb of Dreams spell resolves
>and it enters play the effect from this static ability is not in effect yet.

This appears to be the common misconception everyone's having - that somehow,
as the Orb itself comes into play, its abilities are "not on yet until it's
fully in play and all the comes-into-play stuff has been completed". In
other words, that it sits there "blank" while you process all the comes-into-
play stuff. But that's not TRUE.

Triggered abilities it has would trigger just fine; continuous abilities it
has that would affect itself do so - look at a Darkest Hour that got Sleighted
while on the stack and comes into play under Opalescence: it is a creature the
whole time it's in play AND it makes itself, and all other creatures, be the
changed color. It does NOT come into play "as a black enchantment noncreature"
and then a moment later, AFTER it's in play already, change to a (say) blue
enchantment creature.

>This also means that if Orb of Dreams and other permanents would come into
>play at the same time that those other permanents will come into play
>untapped."

Nope. Its effect works while you process continuous effects affecting the
stuff coming into play, _just like the continuous effect from one already
in play would_. There is no way to tell the difference between the two, once
you get to the part of CIP calculations where continuous effects are being
applied to stuff coming into play; the Orb coming into play is not "off"
at that time, any more than one already in play would be.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On 10 Mar 2005 09:40:08 -0800, Andre Bronswijk <mail@auenland.de> wrote:
>419.1c Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play
>. . ." or "[Objects] come into play . . ." are replacement effects.
>
>Is this the reason that Orb of Dreams is treated like Coastal Tower
>and Orb comes into play tapped? (I searched more than an hour today in
>rules to find a solution for this problem...)

....Yes and no. I had not noticed that was there, but the second half IS NOT
CORRECT; it can't possibly apply to Kismet, Uphill Battle, or Root Maze,
because all three of those have to wait a moment and see what _is_ coming
into play, before they know whether to apply. (In other words, they have to
wait for any possible layer 4 type-changing effects to be applied, before
they know what _is_ a creature or artifact or land, and for any possible
layer 2 control-changing effects to be applied, before they know whose control
it will appear under.) They can't be applied as replacement effects, because
the time to do that is before _any_ continuous effects are applied.

Orb of Dreams doesn't have to check controller, or type, so -could- get
applied "beforehand" as a replacement effect. But I see no profit in allowing
the "[Objects] come into play tapped" effects, all four of the existing ones,
to be divided into two sets applied at different times, one set having one
member and one set having three. [I am leaving out the numerous "[This] comes
into play tapped" effects; 410.10e covers them, and 419.1c rightfully repeats
what 410.10e says.] Because that's just confusion-making.

Orb of Dreams gets to apply, in other words, because it applies the same time
Kismet, Uphill Battle, or Root Maze would ... and those apply just fine to
things coming into play, and we deliberately have no way to distinguish between
"this continuous effect is from something coming into play now" and "this
effect is from something already in play" when applying ordinary continuous
effects to stuff coming into play. We don't WANT such a distinction.

I really think all the confusion's coming because people are somehow assuming
things' abilities don't turn on until some small but measurable time AFTER
they come into play ... which isn't the case. It's just that most things with
continuous abilities don't affect -themselves-...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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In news:slrnd32i4o.6p3.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com,
David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> rambled:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:34:45 -0500, Briscobar
> <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>>> Will Orb of Dreams itself come into play tapped? I'm not sure
>>> whether 410.10e applies to it.
>>
>>I don't know how much this will settle the argument, as it's not
>>"official", but rather a regular ol' judge.
>>
>>http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=9144
>>
>>"Q: Does Orb of Dreams affect itself and thus come into play tapped?
>>
>>A: No. That ability is a static ability that changes how permanents
>>come into play at the moment they come into play. Assuming that there
>>is not already an Orb of Dreams in play, then when an Orb of Dreams
>>spell resolves and it enters play the effect from this static ability
>>is not in effect yet.
>
> This appears to be the common misconception everyone's having - that
> somehow, as the Orb itself comes into play, its abilities are "not on
> yet until it's fully in play and all the comes-into-play stuff has
> been completed". In
> other words, that it sits there "blank" while you process all the
> comes-into- play stuff. But that's not TRUE.
>
> Triggered abilities it has would trigger just fine; continuous
> abilities it has that would affect itself do so - look at a Darkest
> Hour that got Sleighted while on the stack and comes into play under
> Opalescence: it is a creature the whole time it's in play AND it
> makes itself, and all other creatures, be the changed color. It does
> NOT come into play "as a black enchantment noncreature" and then a
> moment later, AFTER it's in play already, change to a (say) blue
> enchantment creature.
>
>>This also means that if Orb of Dreams and other permanents would come
>>into play at the same time that those other permanents will come into
>>play untapped."
>
> Nope. Its effect works while you process continuous effects affecting
> the stuff coming into play, _just like the continuous effect from one
> already
> in play would_. There is no way to tell the difference between the
> two, once you get to the part of CIP calculations where continuous
> effects are being applied to stuff coming into play; the Orb coming
> into play is not "off"
> at that time, any more than one already in play would be.
>
> Dave

So, if Orb of Dreams that had some kind of Comes into Play ability like:

When Orb of Dreams comes into play, if it's untapped, do something.

Then the CIP ability would never trigger?

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com

 

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Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> rambled:
>> This appears to be the common misconception everyone's having - that
>> somehow, as the Orb itself comes into play, its abilities are "not on
>> yet until it's fully in play and all the comes-into-play stuff has
>> been completed". In
>> other words, that it sits there "blank" while you process all the
>> comes-into- play stuff. But that's not TRUE.
>
>So, if Orb of Dreams that had some kind of Comes into Play ability like:
>
>When Orb of Dreams comes into play, if it's untapped, do something.
>
>Then the CIP ability would never trigger?

Correct, near as I can tell from how our continuous-effect system works (and
bearing in mind that I wuz there for a good deal of the arguing about corner
cases that wound up getting it into the form it's currently in): it would come
into play tapped (as part of applying continuous effects, or, if someone rules
really weirdly on it because it DOESN'T have to wait and see if things are
creatures / lands / artifacts / under a particular person's control, even
before that, as part of replacing the CIP event entirely), then after you're
done applying continuous effects to it, you look to see what triggered
abilities trigger. And in this case that one doesn't. The CIP triggered
abilities -do- wait until continuous abilities are entirely applied, before
even checking to see if they trigger; the continuous abilities themselves,
however, do not "wait until after you apply us to see if we're here at all".

I -am- planning on triple-checking my answer, since it seems a lot of other
people have all somehow agreed it works a different way without me hearing
anything about it ... but I'm going from what's in the rulebook plus what I
know on how the system works. Not on 'this can't work this way because it
doesn't seem to make sense to me, it must work that way' (well, maybe at a
deeper level I am...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> I really think all the confusion's coming because people are somehow assuming
> things' abilities don't turn on until some small but measurable time AFTER
> they come into play ... which isn't the case. It's just that most things with
> continuous abilities don't affect -themselves-...

Or, it might be coming from rule 419.4: "... BEFORE the appropriate
event ...."

419.4. Replacement or prevention effects must exist before the
appropriate event occurs--they can't "go back in time" and change
something that's already happened. Usually spells and abilities that
generate these effects are played in response to whatever would produce
the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.

Kismet, Uphill Battle, and Root Maze are in play before the objects they
influence. And cards like Coastal Tower fall under 402.8 (in addition
to the specific statement later on).
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>
>> I really think all the confusion's coming because people are somehow assuming
>> things' abilities don't turn on until some small but measurable time AFTER
>> they come into play ... which isn't the case. It's just that most things with
>> continuous abilities don't affect -themselves-...
>
>Or, it might be coming from rule 419.4: "... BEFORE the appropriate
>event ...."

For replacement effects? Yes. But note that the three existing cards we have
that do things similar to Orb of Dreams -can't be- replacement effects - so
419.1c can be at most half-right. The "<this> comes into play tapped" things
are workable just fine as replacement effects; the "<Objects> come into play
tapped" can't be. Why? Because Kismet has to see if something is a creature,
land, or artifact, and has to see who controls it; it does NOT "only work
on creature cards, land cards, or artifact cards" or on 'cards your opponent
_owns_". Similarly, Root Maze has to see if something is an artifact or land,
and Uphill Battle has to see has to see if it's a creature (and if your
opponent played it, though that's not part of the difficulty).
None of those are findable out _before_ the permanent is in play. And if Orb
of Dreams were the FIRST thing with an "[Objects] come into play tapped"
ability, I'd have no problem classifying it as 419.1c says... but 419.1c is
demonstrably wrong for the three other things that have such an ability, and
as I noted I don't want to say it's right for Orb of Dreams if it's wrong for
the other three.

>Kismet, Uphill Battle, and Root Maze are in play before the objects they
>influence.

They can be, or, for Root Maze, it's possible for it to be coming into play
at the same time. Same principle applies, though: _they can't be replacement
effects_, regardless of whether they're in play beforehand or not.

If Kismet were ruled to affect creature -cards-, artifact -cards-, and land
-cards-, and to affect cards your opponent -owned-, then sure, its effect
could apply before you figure out whose control it will appear under and
what permanent type it has. But it isn't so ruled.

>And cards like Coastal Tower fall under 402.8 (in addition
>to the specific statement later on).

Right, I'm not taking a stand against "<This> comes into play tapped"; those
clearly can be replacement effects, since they don't care what they are
other than "this".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.