Switch power and toughness effects interactions

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

This may be a long post. I apologize in advance.

I'm having some trouble with the power and toughness switching effects
-- specifically older vs. newer ways and timestamp order

There are 3 cards involved:

Hero’s Resolve
1W
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+5.

About Face
R
Instant
Switch target creature’s power and toughness until end of turn.
Effects that alter the creature’s power alter its toughness instead,
and vice versa, this turn.

Strange Inversion
2R
Instant - Arcane
Switch target creature’s power and toughness until end of turn.
Splice onto Arcane 1R (As you play an Arcane spell, you may reveal
this card from your hand and pay its splice cost. If you do, add this
card’s effects to that spell.)

First, the bit on timestamp and dependency. The rule says:

418.5c An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it is applied
in the same layer as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b)
applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first
effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it
applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of
the other effect.

I can't figure out if there's a dependency here or not. One of the
things above says "what it does to any of the things it applies to".
In a case using About Face and Hero's Resolve, the exact effect of
Hero's Resolve seems to depend on About Face. However, I'm unsure
about the other way around. The effect of About face is to switch the
P/T no matter what,making it seem independent, but the P/T values
would be different, making it seems dependent. Which is it? And if
you're using Strange Inversion instead, where it doesn't flip-flop the
roles of P/T effects, does this change dependency?

OK...now to the end-results themselves. I'll quickly do the 4
situations I'm interested in. Let's just say that they're applied to
a vanilla 1/1 creature.

1. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. About Face
targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

2. About Face targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's Resolve
enchants it. What is the P/T?

3. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. Strange
Inversion targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

4. Strange Inversion targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's
Resolve enchants it. What is the P/T?

In case you're wondering, I'm building a deck around this highly
annoying theme, and I need to know in advance how it works (not that
any of the other players will believe me anyhow).

Thanks for the patience,

Rick Kunkel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>This may be a long post. I apologize in advance.
>
>I'm having some trouble with the power and toughness switching effects
>-- specifically older vs. newer ways and timestamp order

Okay. Bearing in mind that there's two functionally different ways to do it,
one which just says "Switch <creature's> power/toughness for <duration>.",
the other of which says that plus "Effects that would affect its power this
turn instead affect its toughness, and vice versa.".

>There are 3 cards involved:
>
>Hero's Resolve >1W >Enchant Creature
> Enchanted creature gets +1/+5.
>
>About Face >R >Instant
> Switch target creature's power and toughness until end of turn. Effects that
> alter the creature's power alter its toughness instead, and vice versa, this
> turn.
>
>Strange Inversion >2R >Instant - Arcane
>Switch target creature's power and toughness until end of turn.
>Splice onto Arcane 1R (*)

And here you have one of each. Both will affect power/toughness modifications
timestamped _before_ them; About Face will also affect p/t modifications
timestamped -after- it. Strange Inversion won't.

>First, the bit on timestamp and dependency. The rule says:
>
>418.5c An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it is applied
>in the same layer as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b)
>applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first
>effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it
>applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of
>the other effect.

Okay. Neither AF or SI depend on the other. (This is because AF's extra text
doesn't _change_ what "switch its power and toughness" does - it essentially
just makes it "switch its toughness and power", which is The Same Thing. And
also because both are resolving spells/abilities that produce a continuous
effect; those don't have their continuous effect depend on things.)

>I can't figure out if there's a dependency here or not. One of the
>things above says "what it does to any of the things it applies to".
>In a case using About Face and Hero's Resolve, the exact effect of
>Hero's Resolve seems to depend on About Face. However, I'm unsure
>about the other way around. The effect of About face is to switch the
>P/T no matter what,making it seem independent, but the P/T values
>would be different, making it seems dependent. Which is it? And if
>you're using Strange Inversion instead, where it doesn't flip-flop the
>roles of P/T effects, does this change dependency?

About Face doesn't depend on things that change power and toughness; they
don't change -what- it does, or what it does to later-ordered things either.
And since it targets the creature, -that- can't change, so it doesn't even
depend on creatureness. And, in fact, this is why, as a continuous effect
from a resolving ability that modifies characteristics, it doesn't -depend on-
anything: it picks what it affects on resolution (or, in this case, before) and
decides what it does to what it affects by then too, and doesn't change that
later. Continuous effects from resolving spells or abilities that affect
charaacteristics don't apply text, can't get removed later by "loses all
abilities", have chosen what to apply to, and have figured out how to apply,
all by the time they are done resolving... so none of the b) criteria in
418.5c apply, and they don't depend on other continuous effects.

So, essentially, none of these three depends on any of the others, and none
of them forces another's timestamp to 'move to after it'.

>OK...now to the end-results themselves. I'll quickly do the 4
>situations I'm interested in. Let's just say that they're applied to
>a vanilla 1/1 creature.
>
>1. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. About Face
>targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

1/1 +1/+5 switched-plus-future = 6/2.

>2. About Face targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's Resolve
>enchants it. What is the P/T?

1/1 switched-plus-future +1/+5 = 6/2. (The +1/+5 gets applied backwards because
of the second part of About Face.)

>3. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. Strange
>Inversion targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

1/1 +1/+5 switched = 6/2.

>4. Strange Inversion targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's
>Resolve enchants it. What is the P/T?

1/1 switched +1/+5 = 2/6. (Strange Inversion does NOT say anything about later-
applied effects treating power as toughness and vice versa.)

>In case you're wondering, I'm building a deck around this highly
>annoying theme, and I need to know in advance how it works (not that
>any of the other players will believe me anyhow).

Fair enough. The short version: Strange Inversion just switches what it finds
at the timestamp-point it gets applied at; About Face affects stuff applied
"on top of it" too, that turn, as well as stuff it's applied on top of.

Strange Inversion + Strange Inversion = no effect except on stuff applied
"between" the two.

About Face + About Face = no effect at all, total.

Strange Inversion + later About Face = no effect on the stuff applied before
Strange Inversion; stuff applied after the SI gets switched.

About Face + later Strange Inversion = no effect on the stuff applied before
Strange Inversion; stuff applied after the SI gets switched. (And yes, this
is the same result as the one before it. The About Face switches stuff before
-and- after it; the SI re-switches those, but doesn't stop the "Effects that
affect power affect toughness instead etc." effect from still applying.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Maz]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel schrieb:
> This may be a long post. I apologize in advance.
>
> I'm having some trouble with the power and toughness switching effects
> -- specifically older vs. newer ways and timestamp order

I'll give it a try


> First, the bit on timestamp and dependency. The rule says:
>
> 418.5c An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it is applied
> in the same layer as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b)
> applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first
> effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it
> applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of
> the other effect.
>
> I can't figure out if there's a dependency here or not. One of the
> things above says "what it does to any of the things it applies to".
> In a case using About Face and Hero's Resolve, the exact effect of
> Hero's Resolve seems to depend on About Face. However, I'm unsure
> about the other way around. The effect of About face is to switch the
> P/T no matter what,making it seem independent, but the P/T values
> would be different, making it seems dependent. Which is it? And if
> you're using Strange Inversion instead, where it doesn't flip-flop the
> roles of P/T effects, does this change dependency?

I agree with your assumption.
Hero's resolve does depend on about face, because it's existence indeed
changes "what it does to any of the things it aplies to".
If about face is played it's always applied bevor hero's resolve, but as
it changes what hero's resolve does in the same way as it's "switch the
power an thoughness" effect, there is effectiveley no different aoutcome
as if the effects would be applied in timestamp order.

Strange vision has no such effect.
It doesn't change what hero's resolve does to the creature, it just
switches the P/T values, so it is aplied in normal timestamp order.
However it also depends on about face, if both are played so it is
applied later.

> OK...now to the end-results themselves. I'll quickly do the 4
> situations I'm interested in. Let's just say that they're applied to
> a vanilla 1/1 creature.
>
> 1. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. About Face
> targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

6/2

> 2. About Face targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's Resolve
> enchants it. What is the P/T?

6/2

> 3. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. Strange
> Inversion targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?

6/2

> 4. Strange Inversion targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's
> Resolve enchants it. What is the P/T?

2/6

> In case you're wondering, I'm building a deck around this highly
> annoying theme, and I need to know in advance how it works (not that
> any of the other players will believe me anyhow).

Ready for confusion eh


> Thanks for the patience,

Hope the other players do have some patience *gg*
Martin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:13:23 +0100, Maz <nospamMazworld@gmx.de> wrote:
>I agree with your assumption.
>Hero's resolve does depend on about face, because it's existence indeed
>changes "what it does to any of the things it aplies to".

....I'll ask about that. That's not supposed to be something Hero's Resolve,
or any other p/t-_changer_, depends on; About Face is NOT supposed to move
all p/t changers to -after- itself. (Technically, you would think HR's
effect depends on something being a creature ... but "Enchanted creature"
is template-speak for "the thing I'm enchanting", plus if it's ever NOT
enchanting a creature, it will fall off the next time state-based effects
are applied. So for practical purposes, HR's effect doesn't depend on
anything.)

>Strange vision has no such effect.
>It doesn't change what hero's resolve does to the creature, it just
>switches the P/T values, so it is aplied in normal timestamp order.
>However it also depends on about face, if both are played so it is
>applied later.

No. Strange Inversion doesn't depend on anything either; it's a resolving
spell that makes a continuous effect affecting two characteristics. However:

>> 1. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. About Face
>> targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?
>
>6/2
>
>> 2. About Face targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's Resolve
>> enchants it. What is the P/T?
>
>6/2
>
>> 3. Hero's Resolve is already enchanting the creature. Strange
>> Inversion targets it and resolves. What is the P/T?
>
>6/2
>
>> 4. Strange Inversion targets the creature and resolves. Then Hero's
>> Resolve enchants it. What is the P/T?
>
>2/6

....these answers all came out correct.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 19 Mar 2005 22:39:08 -0500, David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:13:23 +0100, Maz <nospamMazworld@gmx.de> wrote:
>>I agree with your assumption.
>>Hero's resolve does depend on about face, because it's existence indeed
>>changes "what it does to any of the things it aplies to".
>
>...I'll ask about that.

Remembered what the answer is without having to ask. Hang on...

>That's not supposed to be something Hero's Resolve,
>or any other p/t-_changer_, depends on; About Face is NOT supposed to move
>all p/t changers to -after- itself. (Technically, you would think HR's
>effect depends on something being a creature ... but "Enchanted creature"
>is template-speak for "the thing I'm enchanting", plus if it's ever NOT
>enchanting a creature, it will fall off the next time state-based effects
>are applied. So for practical purposes, HR's effect doesn't depend on
>anything.)

About Face's effect a) switches the power and toughness of the creature,
including any previously-ordered continuous effects affecting it; Strange
Inversion also does a). AF also b) sets up a very rare beast, a continuous
replacement effect, which affects continuous effects ordered -after- it and
changes what they do if they're trying to affect either power or toughness or
both.

Now what dependency is there for is to say "If we were to apply B _after_ A,
would B change the existence of A, change what A affects, or change what A
does to what it affects? If so, move A after B, all the time.". About Face's
b) _only_ applies to continuous effects that are ALREADY ordered after it;
it doesn't do anything to previously-ordered effects. (Its a) takes care of
those.) So: its b) will affect Hero's Resolve's trying to give +1 to power and
+5 to toughness? If and only if Hero's Resolve is ordered -after- About Face.
It doesn't do a thing to an already-applied Hero's Resolve.

And the a) part, "Switch the creature's power and toughness", also doesn't do
anything to what an earlier Hero's Resolve _does_ to the creature: the HR still
gives the creature +1/+5. The a) part just switches the numbers -after-
applying the earlier HR.

So: About Face's effect doesn't make earlier p/t adjustments depend on it,
because it doesn't change their existence, what they affect, or what they -do-
- it just adds another thing to be done on top of those. And it doesn't make
later p/t adjustments depend on it, because that doesn't even make sense if
you look at what "depend on it" is used for, AND because things don't _depend_
on replacement effects. (Replacement effects are there for the express purpose
of changing how something that's about to happen, or in this case how something
applied later in the order, works; that doesn't mean anything they CAN affect
depends on them ... and this also goes back to "if it's applied later already
anyway, you don't need to ask about the dependency, because what dependency
does if it exists is move the thing to being applied later than what it
depends on".

Short version: About Face's continuous replacement effect doesn't have anything
depend on it; it changes what effects applied "on top of it" can do, yes, but
it doesn't do anything to effects applied "under" it at all. About Face's
"switch" continuous effect changes around the power and toughness resulting
from earlier-ordered effects, but doesn't touch the earlier-ordered effects
-themselves-, it just takes their output and manipulates it. So other p/t-
altering things don't, in general, depend on About Face just because About Face
says to replace how _later-applied_ p/t-altering things work.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.