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Underworld Dreams and Damage Prevention

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Anonymous
March 25, 2005 11:43:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Underwold Dreams:
Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to
him or her.

Howling Mine
At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is
untapped, that player draws an additional card.


Let's say my opponent has an Underwold Dreams out and 2 howling mines.
I have a C.O.P Black. Thus I have to pay up to 3 mana to prevent all 3
points of damage.
My question is this: Can I look at the cards I draw before deciding
whether to pay the the cost of preventing the damage.

I think I can and here's my argument:

I draw a card. That triggers Underworld Dreams. This means that an
effect saying "UD deals 1 damage to you" is put on the stack. Since
something got put on the stack, I get priority before it actually
resolves. By the time I get this priority, I've already drawn the
card, so I can look at it. At that point, I can choose to pay 1 to
place an additional effect (COP) on top of the damage effect that will
prevent the damage.

My opponent, as well as the ad-hoc judge (casual game) stated that I
could not see the drawn cards first because the damage was somehow 'a
part of the process of drawing'. I'm not sure what he meant by that.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 9:34:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Time to step up the meds; I could have sworn Monte Gardner just said...
> Underwold Dreams:
> Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to
> him or her.
>
> Howling Mine
> At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is
> untapped, that player draws an additional card.
>
>
> Let's say my opponent has an Underwold Dreams out and 2 howling mines.
> I have a C.O.P Black. Thus I have to pay up to 3 mana to prevent all 3
> points of damage.
> My question is this: Can I look at the cards I draw before deciding
> whether to pay the the cost of preventing the damage.
>
> I think I can and here's my argument:
>
> I draw a card. That triggers Underworld Dreams. This means that an
> effect saying "UD deals 1 damage to you" is put on the stack. Since
> something got put on the stack, I get priority before it actually
> resolves. By the time I get this priority, I've already drawn the
> card, so I can look at it. At that point, I can choose to pay 1 to
> place an additional effect (COP) on top of the damage effect that will
> prevent the damage.
>
> My opponent, as well as the ad-hoc judge (casual game) stated that I
> could not see the drawn cards first because the damage was somehow 'a
> part of the process of drawing'. I'm not sure what he meant by that.

They are dead wrong, and you are correct, on every point; it's a normal
triggered ability and works exactly as you've outlined. It is not in any
sense "part of the process of drawing the card".

I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities and
the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 11:44:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Monte Gardner wrote:

> Underwold Dreams:
> Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to
> him or her.
>
> Howling Mine
> At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is
> untapped, that player draws an additional card.
>
>
> Let's say my opponent has an Underwold Dreams out and 2 howling mines.
> I have a C.O.P Black. Thus I have to pay up to 3 mana to prevent all 3
> points of damage.
> My question is this: Can I look at the cards I draw before deciding
> whether to pay the the cost of preventing the damage.

Yes and no. You get to look at each card before deciding to prevent
damage for it. But you have to decide to prevent damage for that
card before moving on to the next; the Howling Mines' card draws are
themselves triggered abilities and wait their turn on the stack.
>
> I think I can and here's my argument:
>
> I draw a card. That triggers Underworld Dreams. This means that an
> effect saying "UD deals 1 damage to you" is put on the stack. Since
> something got put on the stack, I get priority before it actually
> resolves. By the time I get this priority, I've already drawn the
> card, so I can look at it. At that point, I can choose to pay 1 to
> place an additional effect (COP) on top of the damage effect that will
> prevent the damage.

Correct. But note that all this happens before the next card draw
resolves. You don't get to look at the *next* card before deciding
to prevent the damage from *this* card.
>
> My opponent, as well as the ad-hoc judge (casual game) stated that I
> could not see the drawn cards first because the damage was somehow 'a
> part of the process of drawing'. I'm not sure what he meant by that.

I have no idea what he means by that either. It's not correct, though.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
Related resources
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 4:27:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 25 Mar 2005 20:43:47 -0800, Monte Gardner <Monte.Gardner@asu.edu> wrote:
>Underwold Dreams:
> Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to
>him or her.
>
>Howling Mine
>At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is
>untapped, that player draws an additional card.

Howling Mine's draw, as well as the normal draw for that draw step (which
happens before the Mine's triggered ability can go on the stack), trigger
this. The triggered ability from the Dreams goes on the stack with the
triggered ability from the Mine; if the same player controls both, they
decide each turn which order the two go in. If different players control
the two, then the ability from the player whose turn it is NOT goes on top.

>Let's say my opponent has an Underwold Dreams out and 2 howling mines.
>I have a C.O.P Black. Thus I have to pay up to 3 mana to prevent all 3
>points of damage.

Correct.

>My question is this: Can I look at the cards I draw before deciding
>whether to pay the the cost of preventing the damage.

Yes; in fact, you generally will do so. Underworld Dreams triggers off the
draw(s), and triggered abilities go on the stack, wait to resolve, and can
be responded to like anything else that uses the stack. You will see the card
before that card's Dreams-triggered ability goes on the stack; you will have
time while that ability's on the stack to use your Circle.

Note that, as noted above, the draws are at three _different_ times; the
ability from the Dreams goes on the stack at the same time as both the Mines'
draw-one-card abilities, and opponent gets to decide each turn how they are
ordered, since he controls all three sources. You'll have to decide whether
to pay for the one Mine's draw's damage before you ever see the other Mine's
draw, and you'll see your regular draw before both Mines draws and before
you need to decide whether to pay for any of them. But you do NOT get to
see all three drawn cards before deciding whether to pay for any of the
damage to be prevented; the Mine ability on top will trigger a Dreams
ability that will ALSO be on top of the other Mine ability.

>I draw a card. That triggers Underworld Dreams. This means that an
>effect saying "UD deals 1 damage to you" is put on the stack. Since
>something got put on the stack, I get priority before it actually
>resolves. By the time I get this priority, I've already drawn the
>card, so I can look at it. At that point, I can choose to pay 1 to
>place an additional effect (COP) on top of the damage effect that will
>prevent the damage.

Yes. For each drawn card, you'll be able to use your Circle in response to
the Dreams triggered ability.

>My opponent, as well as the ad-hoc judge (casual game) stated that I
>could not see the drawn cards first because the damage was somehow 'a
>part of the process of drawing'. I'm not sure what he meant by that.

I'm sure that neither is he, since that doesn't particularly make sense.
Underworld Dreams has a triggered ability, not a replacement ability or
some sort of continuous effect.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 4:29:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
>printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities and
>the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.

They would not have been. Triggered abilities have happened -after- the
event that triggered them since the very start. The details of how "resolving
in series" worked are far different than today's stack, and whether the
rule-given draw each turn uses the stack or not has gone back and forth
also, but in all the situations you drew the card, and could look at it,
before you processed the Dreams triggered ability triggering off that card.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 4:29:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 25 Mar 2005, Monte Gardner wrote:

> Underwold Dreams:
> Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to
> him or her.
>
> Howling Mine
> At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is
> untapped, that player draws an additional card.
>
>
> Let's say my opponent has an Underwold Dreams out and 2 howling mines.
> I have a C.O.P Black. Thus I have to pay up to 3 mana to prevent all 3
> points of damage.
> My question is this: Can I look at the cards I draw before deciding
> whether to pay the the cost of preventing the damage.

You can even play the cards before deciding whether to pay the cost.
And you can even use the drawn cards to create the mana to pay for the
cost of preventing.

--
David
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 3:09:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
> >I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
> >printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities
and
> >the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.
>
> They would not have been. Triggered abilities have happened -after-
the
> event that triggered them since the very start. The details of how
"resolving
> in series" worked are far different than today's stack, and whether
the
> rule-given draw each turn uses the stack or not has gone back and
forth
> also, but in all the situations you drew the card, and could look at
it,
> before you processed the Dreams triggered ability triggering off that
card.

Underworld Dreams was first printed in the Legend's Expansion. At that
time, the Revised Edition rules were in effect. I believe (but I'm not
absolutely sure) that the draw of the regular and the Howling Mine
cards took place at the about the same time.

Since LIFO batches were in use, the two Howling Mine cards would have
been drawn before the regular card. I think they would all be in the
same batch.

What that implies is that both the regular draw and the Howling Mine
draws would have a common damage prevention window. This meant that if
one of the three cards drawn is a Healing Salve, it could have been
used to prevent the damage.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 9:04:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
>
> I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
> printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities and
> the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.

Yes they've change a lot. I, also, don't remember exactly how it worked.
What I remember (correctly I hope), is that damage was dealt after the
stack was empty. The stack, I think was a fifo one, except when
interrupt was involved, which they resolve as a lifo stack for that
interrupted part. And also, if I'm right, only one activation of the CoP
would have been necessary to prevent the damage from Underwolrd Dream.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 9:07:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
>
> I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
> printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities and
> the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.

Yes they've change a lot. I, also, don't remember exactly how it worked.
What I remember (correctly I hope), is that damage was dealt after the
stack was empty. The stack, I think was a fifo one, except when
interrupt was involved, which they resolve as a lifo stack for that
interrupted part. And also, if I'm right, only one activation of the CoP
would have been necessary to prevent the damage from Underwolrd Dream.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 9:08:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
>
> I can't remember if they would have been right when it was first
> printed, but it's a moot point. Both the rules for such abilities and
> the wording of Underworld Dreams have changed A LOT since then.

Yes they've change a lot. I, also, don't remember exactly how it worked.
What I remember (correctly I hope), is that damage was dealt after the
stack was empty. The stack, I think was a fifo one, except when
interrupt was involved, which they resolve as a lifo stack for that
interrupted part. And also, if I'm right, only one activation of the CoP
would have been necessary to prevent the damage from Underwolrd Dream.
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 9:14:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dancle16@yahoo.com <dancle16@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> They would not have been. Triggered abilities have happened -after- the
>> event that triggered them since the very start. The details of how "resolving
>> in series" worked are far different than today's stack, and whether the
>> rule-given draw each turn uses the stack or not has gone back and forth
>> also, but in all the situations you drew the card, and could look at it,
>> before you processed the Dreams triggered ability triggering off that card.
>
>Underworld Dreams was first printed in the Legend's Expansion. At that
>time, the Revised Edition rules were in effect. I believe (but I'm not
>absolutely sure) that the draw of the regular and the Howling Mine
>cards took place at the about the same time.

Under Revised rules, it was actually impossible to tell. Let me check: ...yes,
the Revised rulebook never used the word "triggered". And reading the actual
rules it had (www.vic.com/~dbd/NFd/exp.rules/rulebook.RV is where I can check
because I typed it all in quite some time ago, though I'm still not done on the
4E/5E/Mirage rulebooks) shows that they weren't even considering that sort of
ability; I don't see, now, anything that I can point to there that actually
covered Howling Mine's kind of ability...

They did make a Ruling on it, however:
+ The two draws are separate and are not done at once. You can draw one,
do something, then draw the other. [WotC Rules Team 10/12/94]

Back then, "upkeep effects" were still in vogue, and you could have those
happen, I think, any time during your upkeep, you just couldn't end that
phase before dealing with all the existing ones. Howling Mine may have been a
"draw-phase effect" of that sort. At this point I can't actually remember...

>Since LIFO batches were in use, the two Howling Mine cards would have
>been drawn before the regular card. I think they would all be in the
>same batch.

Nope. Remember that changing "phase effects" to "at the beginning of <step/
phase>" triggered abilities was only introduced for 6th Edition. Before then
there were special rules for "phase abilities" (5E) or "upkeep effects" (4E
and earlier) ... and the basics were that you couldn't leave that phase if
there were un-dealt-with upkeep effects. Nothing had them all "start off
as the phase started" or anything.

The other ruling, of two, for Howling Mine back in the 1994 file I'm digging
this out of was

+ In general, drawing a card during the draw phase is an instant speed
effect just like any other. [WotC Rules Team 10/12/94] You cannot
end your draw phase, however, until you've done the required number
of draw effects, and you cannot draw more than once unless required
to by another card or effect.

>What that implies is that both the regular draw and the Howling Mine
>draws would have a common damage prevention window. This meant that if
>one of the three cards drawn is a Healing Salve, it could have been
>used to prevent the damage.

They were separate effects, so that means they would've had separate
damage-prevention windows. Aren't you glad we don't have to deal with any
of THAT any more?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 11:26:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> dancle16@yahoo.com <dancle16@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> They would not have been. Triggered abilities have happened
-after- the
> >> event that triggered them since the very start. The details of how
"resolving
> >> in series" worked are far different than today's stack, and
whether the
> >> rule-given draw each turn uses the stack or not has gone back and
forth
> >> also, but in all the situations you drew the card, and could look
at it,
> >> before you processed the Dreams triggered ability triggering off
that card.
> >
> >Underworld Dreams was first printed in the Legend's Expansion. At
that
> >time, the Revised Edition rules were in effect. I believe (but I'm
not
> >absolutely sure) that the draw of the regular and the Howling Mine
> >cards took place at the about the same time.
>
> Under Revised rules, it was actually impossible to tell. Let me
check: ...yes,
> the Revised rulebook never used the word "triggered". And reading the
actual
> rules it had (www.vic.com/~dbd/NFd/exp.rules/rulebook.RV is where I
can check
> because I typed it all in quite some time ago, though I'm still not
done on the
> 4E/5E/Mirage rulebooks) shows that they weren't even considering that
sort of
> ability; I don't see, now, anything that I can point to there that
actually
> covered Howling Mine's kind of ability...
>
> They did make a Ruling on it, however:
> + The two draws are separate and are not done at once. You can draw
one,
> do something, then draw the other. [WotC Rules Team 10/12/94]
>
> Back then, "upkeep effects" were still in vogue, and you could have
those
> happen, I think, any time during your upkeep, you just couldn't end
that
> phase before dealing with all the existing ones. Howling Mine may
have been a
> "draw-phase effect" of that sort. At this point I can't actually
remember...
>
> >Since LIFO batches were in use, the two Howling Mine cards would
have
> >been drawn before the regular card. I think they would all be in
the
> >same batch.
>
> Nope. Remember that changing "phase effects" to "at the beginning of
<step/
> phase>" triggered abilities was only introduced for 6th Edition.
Before then
> there were special rules for "phase abilities" (5E) or "upkeep
effects" (4E
> and earlier) ... and the basics were that you couldn't leave that
phase if
> there were un-dealt-with upkeep effects. Nothing had them all "start
off
> as the phase started" or anything.
>
> The other ruling, of two, for Howling Mine back in the 1994 file I'm
digging
> this out of was
>
> + In general, drawing a card during the draw phase is an instant
speed
> effect just like any other. [WotC Rules Team 10/12/94] You
cannot
> end your draw phase, however, until you've done the required
number
> of draw effects, and you cannot draw more than once unless
required
> to by another card or effect.
>
> >What that implies is that both the regular draw and the Howling Mine
> >draws would have a common damage prevention window. This meant that
if
> >one of the three cards drawn is a Healing Salve, it could have been
> >used to prevent the damage.
>
> They were separate effects, so that means they would've had separate
> damage-prevention windows. Aren't you glad we don't have to deal with
any
> of THAT any more?
>

You're right. I forgot about "phase effects". At that time, there
were a lot of rules that were not in the Revised Rulebook. Both the
regular draw and the Howling Mine draws were phase effects that were
played as instants and could be played at any time during the draw
phase.

I believe that the timing of whether or not they had separate DP
windows was still under the control of the active player.

The active player could either play all of the draws in the same batch
or in different batches. If the active player had a COP black, it
would be to his advantage to do all the draws in the same batch.

So I think the following timing would be legal.

Active Player: Announce draw (phase effect played as instant)
Active Player: (interrupts)
Non-active Player: (interrupts)

Active Player: Announce first Howling Mine draw (phase effect)
(interrupt window)

Active Player: Announce second Howling Mine draw (phase effect...)
(interrupt window)

Nonactive Player: Has option to announce instant speed spells or "fast
effects"
(interrupt window if NAP announces anything)

.....

Both players pass.

Effects resolve in LIFO order

Nonactive Players effects resolve

Second Howling Mine draw resolves (Underworld Dreams deals one damage
to active player)

[Note that under Revised Rules, "deals" means what "assign" now means
and "successfully deals" means what "deals" now means]

First Howling Mine draw resolves (Underworld Dreams deals one damage to
AP)

Draw For Turn resolves (Underworld Dreams deals one damage to AP)

Damage Prevention Window for this batch opens (the only legal effects
that may be played are damage prevention, damage redirection and
interrupts)

Unprevented and Unredirected damage is applied to active player's life
total.

Enough of that. I get nostalgic for the old rules sometimes.
!