Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and Kormus Bell

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Quick guess at the question. I'm sure you can guess...

Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
4B
Legendary Creature - Spirit
2/2
Whenever a creature with power 1 or less is put into your graveyard
from play, you may return that creature card to play under your
control at end of turn if Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is still in play.

Kormus Bell
4
Artifact
All Swamps are 1/1 creatures that are still lands.

The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
Wizards' part. I know that last year they reworded Grafted Wargear
(see
http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/resources/June_2004_RTR_060804.doc)
to deal with an animated permanent issue.

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:

> The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
> turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
> says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
> Wizards' part. I know that last year they reworded Grafted Wargear
> (see
> http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/resources/June_2004_RTR_060804.doc)
> to deal with an animated permanent issue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick

202.2a If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this
[something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a category or
characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if it
isn't the appropriate category or characteristic at the time.
Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Destroy that creature at end of turn." The ability will destroy the
object it gave +2/+2 at the end of the turn, even if that object isn't a
creature anymore.

404.4c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object
still affects it even if the object changes characteristics.
Example: An ability that reads "At end of turn, destroy that creature"
will destroy the permanent even if it's no longer a creature during the
end of turn step.

The delayed triggered ability doesn't care whether the cards are (still)
creatures.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Quick guess at the question. I'm sure you can guess...
>
>Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
>4B
>Legendary Creature - Spirit
>2/2
>Whenever a creature with power 1 or less is put into your graveyard
>from play, you may return that creature card to play under your
>control at end of turn if Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is still in play.
>
>Kormus Bell
>4
>Artifact
>All Swamps are 1/1 creatures that are still lands.

Yes, I can guess: Shirei using the phrase "that creature card" does not
actually mean that what it returns has to be a creature card. (And yes this
is confusing, but so would the other ways to refer back to the "creature"
in the trigger event - "that card or token", "that creature", "that
permanent", "it", etc. They picked the best of a bad lot.)

If an animated noncreature card gets put into your graveyard, and it has
power 1 or less at the time, and you control Shirei, and you still control
Shirei without a break by the time during the next End phase's end-of-turn
step that the delayed triggered ability resolves, and that card has also
stayed in your graveyard the whole time, then that ability will return
that card to play under your control. It won't check whether it's a
creature card - it won't return a _token_, but it'll return whatever card
triggered it.

Short answer: yes, you get your animated Swamps back.

>The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
>turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
>says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
>Wizards' part.

It's not an oversight so much as the lesser of several evils in wording the
card. "that Foo" refers back to whatever was most recently mentioned that
was a Foo at the time, and in this case it's referring back to the "a
creature" that triggered the ability initially. Back-references don't still
have to be now what they were then, if that makes sense.

> I know that last year they reworded Grafted Wargear (see
>http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/resources/June_2004_RTR_060804.doc)

That's for different reasons - essentially to do with the fact that
"enchanted creature" is NOT a back-reference like "the creature" or
"that creature", it's something that can be checked NOW. And the Wargear
wording didn't work right if the Wargear was falling off -because- the
permanent was still there but was no longer a creature, in a quick summary.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>> The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
>> turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
>> says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
>> Wizards' part.

>The delayed triggered ability doesn't care whether the cards are (still)
>creatures.

Well, his question actually was about the card being a creature card - at
present, I don't think we have anything that CAN change that (I'm not sure
what copy effects do while the card's in play, but by the same token, little
or nothing asks whether something in play is a 'creature card'). But the
answer's still that a "that creature card" back-reference doesn't actually
need it to currently be a creature card.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, David DeLaney wrote:

> Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>
>> The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
>> turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
>> says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
>> Wizards' part.
>
> It's not an oversight so much as the lesser of several evils in wording the
> card. "that Foo" refers back to whatever was most recently mentioned that
> was a Foo at the time, and in this case it's referring back to the "a
> creature" that triggered the ability initially. Back-references don't still
> have to be now what they were then, if that makes sense.

But it never was a creature card to begin with, was it?
Doesn't that matter?

--
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:43:59 +0200, David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, David DeLaney wrote:
>> Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>>> The question is, will animated lands come back into play at end of
>>> turn if they die, as long as Shirei is in play? Shirei specifically
>>> says "that creature card", but I thought MAYBE it was an oversight on
>>> Wizards' part.
>>
>> It's not an oversight so much as the lesser of several evils in wording the
>> card. "that Foo" refers back to whatever was most recently mentioned that
>> was a Foo at the time, and in this case it's referring back to the "a
>> creature" that triggered the ability initially. Back-references don't still
>> have to be now what they were then, if that makes sense.
>
>But it never was a creature card to begin with, was it?
>Doesn't that matter?

That's what I was talking about about it being a bad situation to word. They
couldn't really use "that creature", because later on it's NOT a creature,
and for once they managed to get around Editing's insistence that anything
being put into play gets referred to as what it will be IN play ("return that
creature to play" doesn't technically WORK but it's everywhere). And "that
creature card" does have the advantage that it's telling you right out that
it won't return _tokens_, as reminder text.

But "return that creature if it was a card" is a) longer and b) potentially
even more confusing, especially in this sort of situation where it's not
normally a creature anyway. And they don't _like_ referring to something as a
"permanent" when it's actually always gonna be a creature in the given
situation. And "that nontoken creature", again, could get confusing. So
anything they picked was going to be confusing... And they didn't want to
say just "that card" either.

But the short answer is, no, it doesn't -really- matter - the "that Foo"
construction isn't ever specifying "this now has to be a Foo", it's always
referring back to some previous mention of -something- in the text. And in
this case that mention was "Whenever _a creature_ you control with..." - so
since the first reference didn't care whether it was actually a creature card,
the second doesn't either.

It's basically "reminder text that it's not going to be returning any tokens",
bumping up against the fact that 'creature card' does have another meaning.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.