Grinding Station - CIP trigger

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, all,
it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap
~" ability. So I can play GS, play its activated "milling" ability
with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the stack,
untap it and use its milling ability yet again.

This is obvious once you start thinking about it and many online
players have no doubt experienced this first hand, but it is nice to
know when building a Grinding Station deck...

FWIW,
Arkady.

Grinding Station
{2}
Artifact
{T}, Sacrifice an artifact: Target player puts the top three cards of
his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap ~.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zarin wrote:
> Hello, all,
> it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
> triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap
> ~" ability. So I can play GS, play its activated "milling" ability
> with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the stack,
> untap it and use its milling ability yet again.
>
> This is obvious once you start thinking about it and many online
> players have no doubt experienced this first hand, but it is nice to
> know when building a Grinding Station deck...
>
> FWIW,
> Arkady.
>
> Grinding Station
> {2}
> Artifact
> {T}, Sacrifice an artifact: Target player puts the top three cards of
> his or her library into his or her graveyard.
> Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap ~.

I actually think it can work unless triggers are forced to resolve with
the "coming into play" before you stack on the mill effect. The trigger
normally, without stacking untap the Station unnecessarily as it comes
into play but with it tapped in stack...when that resolves, the trigger
would work.

Perhaps though there is a subtlty that the trigger must check twice.
First, right when Grinding station, "coming into play" resolves (before
it can be used). If you stack on, the mill happens, the trigger "can"
check again, but because of tapping relying on Grinding station
resolving first, the trigger doesn't happen then because spell resolve
already popped off the stack.

In short, I don't think it works for some very tricky peculiarity
between triggers and other effects and "checking" timing.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zarin <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> sent:
> Hello, all,
> it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
> triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap
> ~" ability. So I can play GS, play its activated "milling" ability
> with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the stack,
> untap it and use its milling ability yet again.

Yes, it will see itself coming into play, and the ability will trigger
and go on the stack when you next get priority after then. At that
point you've got one untap on the stack, and an untapped Grinding
Station, a perfect opportunity to play the Grinding Station's ability
if you happen to have an artifact you want to sacrifice to it right
away. The Grinding Station ability will resolve first, then the untap
trigger will resolve afterwards.

> This is obvious once you start thinking about it and many online
> players have no doubt experienced this first hand, but it is nice to
> know when building a Grinding Station deck...

Well spotted - I certainly hadn't given it that much thought.

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 21 Apr 2005 08:30:38 -0700, Zarin <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hello, all,
>it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
>triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap
>~" ability.

Correct. It doesn't say "Whenever another artifact..."

>So I can play GS, play its activated "milling" ability
>with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the stack,
>untap it and use its milling ability yet again.

Yep. Assuming of course you have enough artifacts to sacrifice...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 21 Apr 2005 09:08:11 -0700, Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>Zarin wrote:
>> Hello, all,
>> it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
>> triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may untap
>> ~" ability. So I can play GS, play its activated "milling" ability
>> with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the stack,
>> untap it and use its milling ability yet again.
>
>I actually think it can work unless triggers are forced to resolve with
>the "coming into play" before you stack on the mill effect.

Nope. No rule does (or can) enforce this; anything that uses the stack can
have responses added on top of it before it can resolve. The four classes of
things that use the stack are all nonmana triggered abilities (which Grinding
Station's second ability is), all nonmana activated abilities (which Grinding
Station's first ability is), all spells, and combat damage.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2005 09:08:11 -0700, Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Zarin wrote:
> >> Hello, all,
> >> it just occurred to me that a Grinding Station coming into play
> >> triggers its own "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may
untap
> >> ~" ability. So I can play GS, play its activated "milling"
ability
> >> with "you may untap Grinding Station" triggered ability on the
stack,
> >> untap it and use its milling ability yet again.
> >
> >I actually think it can work unless triggers are forced to resolve
with
> >the "coming into play" before you stack on the mill effect.
>
> Nope. No rule does (or can) enforce this; anything that uses the
stack can
> have responses added on top of it before it can resolve. The four
classes of
> things that use the stack are all nonmana triggered abilities (which
Grinding
> Station's second ability is), all nonmana activated abilities (which
Grinding
> Station's first ability is), all spells, and combat damage.

I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
vs non. The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie: a
second Sorcery is put on the stack. (or does it use it's own).

Anyhow, I thought the Grinding Station may need to resolve before it
can be tapped at which point, it's too late to trigger an "artifact
coming into play"...the trigger can check whenever it wants...just
that, it won't find anything and so won't untap.

> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows
the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for
anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander wrote:
>
> I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
> vs non. The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie:
a
> second Sorcery is put on the stack. (or does it use it's own).
>
> Anyhow, I thought the Grinding Station may need to resolve before it
> can be tapped at which point, it's too late to trigger an "artifact
> coming into play"...the trigger can check whenever it wants...just
> that, it won't find anything and so won't untap.

Grinding Station resolves as normal; right after its resolution
(resulting in Grinding Station coming into play and its untap ability
triggering) the active player is trying to receive priority: this is
when the trigger "You may untap Grinding Station" is put onto the
stack. There are no Sorceries here - artifact spell resolving, then
triggered ability being put onto the stack. While the active player
has priority, he or she can play the activated ability of the Grinding
Station - this is the scenario I described.
Looking at your message again I'm not sure you realize that triggered
abilities also use the stack and can be responded to...

Regards,
Arkady.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern wrote:
> Hylander wrote:
> >
> > I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie:
instant
> > vs non.
>
> Then you believe a fallacy. All spells and effects use the stack in
> exactly the same way, except for mana effects, which don't use it at
> all. Sorceries and permanent spells have limits as to when they may
> be placed on the stack, but once there, act the same as any other
spell.

Thank you.

> > The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie: a
> > second Sorcery is put on the stack.
>
> Sorceries & permanents can only be played and put on the stack when
> 1) it's your own main phase, and 2) there is nothing currently on
> the stack.

So it's like this then. I can on my turn.

my Sorcery
their Instant
my Instant
my Instant
their Instant/Ability/Trigger
they pass priority
my Sorcery
my Sorcery

(all on the stack) and they then resolve LIFO correct? Of course, since
I have priority after my first Sorcery, that very well could be my
Instant and it would go on first. Correct?

>
>
> --
> Christopher Mattern
>
> "Which one you figure tracked us?"
> "The ugly one, sir."
> "...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zarin wrote:
> Hylander wrote:
> >
> > I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie:
instant
> > vs non. The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell.
ie:
> a
> > second Sorcery is put on the stack. (or does it use it's own).
> >
> > Anyhow, I thought the Grinding Station may need to resolve before
it
> > can be tapped at which point, it's too late to trigger an "artifact
> > coming into play"...the trigger can check whenever it wants...just
> > that, it won't find anything and so won't untap.
>
> Grinding Station resolves as normal; right after its resolution
> (resulting in Grinding Station coming into play and its untap ability
> triggering) the active player is trying to receive priority: this is
> when the trigger "You may untap Grinding Station" is put onto the
> stack. There are no Sorceries here - artifact spell resolving, then
> triggered ability being put onto the stack. While the active player
> has priority, he or she can play the activated ability of the
Grinding
> Station - this is the scenario I described.
> Looking at your message again I'm not sure you realize that triggered
> abilities also use the stack and can be responded to...
>
> Regards,
> Arkady.


So does it go like this then?

Grinding station spell on stack
resolved Grinding station in play.
Stack empty.

Trigger on stack.
(Trigger checks here for artifact coming into play.) YES.
Tap goes on stack
Mill effect resolves
Trigger resolves untapping Grinding Station.

But I was thinking it was like this:

Grinding station spell on stack
resolved Grinding station in play.
Stack empty.

Trigger on stack.
Tap goes on stack
Mill effect resolves
Trigger resolves
(Trigger first checks artifact just coming into play.) NO.
Trigger doesn't resolve/fizzles not untapping Grinding Station.

Is there a rule for when a trigger is checked.. I thought it might need
to be checked when it resolves like other spells check for targets.

Is there a rule for how long or when a trigger's condition is true?
Perhaps I'm making it just a little harder than it is drawing analogy
perhaps falsely regarding target disappearance etc. ie: Like a
boomeranged O-Stone. Triggers happen before instants from what I can
tell as well and when someone has two triggers out, they decide. ie:
Cowardice Horobi, Death's Wail.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
> vs non. The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie: a
> second Sorcery is put on the stack. (or does it use it's own).

There is one (1) stack. When both players pass in succession while
something is on the one (1) stack, the top object on the stack resolves
and the active player gets priority. Nothing tricky here.

Spells other than instants can be PLAYED only during a player's main
phase, when that player has priority and the stack is empty. There is
nothing special about the resolution of such spells.

> Anyhow, I thought the Grinding Station may need to resolve before it
> can be tapped at which point, it's too late to trigger an "artifact
> coming into play"...the trigger can check whenever it wants...just
> that, it won't find anything and so won't untap.

Yes, the Grinding Station has to resolve (or otherwise enter play)
before its activated ability can be played. But there is no requirement
that any comes-into-play ability must also resolve first.

I don't know what you are saying about the trigger "checking", but it
looks like a way to completely nullify ALL comes-into-play triggers.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander wrote:
>
> I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
> vs non.

Then you believe a fallacy. All spells and effects use the stack in
exactly the same way, except for mana effects, which don't use it at
all. Sorceries and permanent spells have limits as to when they may
be placed on the stack, but once there, act the same as any other spell.

> The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie: a
> second Sorcery is put on the stack.

Sorceries & permanents can only be played and put on the stack when
1) it's your own main phase, and 2) there is nothing currently on
the stack.



--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:

> So does it go like this then?
>
> Grinding station spell on stack
> resolved Grinding station in play.
> Stack empty.
>
> Trigger on stack.
> (Trigger checks here for artifact coming into play.) YES.
> Tap goes on stack
> Mill effect resolves
> Trigger resolves untapping Grinding Station.
>
> But I was thinking it was like this:
>
> Grinding station spell on stack
> resolved Grinding station in play.
> Stack empty.
>
> Trigger on stack.
> Tap goes on stack
> Mill effect resolves
> Trigger resolves
> (Trigger first checks artifact just coming into play.) NO.
> Trigger doesn't resolve/fizzles not untapping Grinding Station.

It goes like this:

1. You get priority and play Grinding Station. The cost is paid using 2
mana obtained in an unspecified way.
2. You get priority and pass.
3. Opponent gets priority and passes.
4. The top object on the stack (the spell played in step 1) resolves.
Grinding Station comes into play. This triggers its comes-into-play
ability.
5. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
the stack. You put the "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may
untap Grinding Station." ability on the stack.
6. You get priority and play the "T, Sacrifice an artifact: Target
player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her
graveyard." ability of Grinding Station. You choose your opponent as
the target, and you pay the cost by tapping Grinding Station and
sacrificing an artifact (which presumably was already in play before all
this started).
7. You get priority and pass.
8. Opponent gets priority and passes.
9. The top object on the stack (the ability played in step 6) resolves.
Opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her
graveyard.
10. You get priority and pass.
11. Opponent gets priority and passes.
12. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5)
resolves. You decide to untap Grinding Station. You untap Grinding
Station.
13. You get priority ....

> Is there a rule for when a trigger is checked.. I thought it might need
> to be checked when it resolves like other spells check for targets.

404. Triggered Abilities

404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word "when," "whenever," or
"at." The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger condition,
which defines the trigger event.

404.2. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, a triggered ability
automatically "triggers" each time its trigger event occurs. Once an
ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a player would
receive priority. See rule 408.1, "Timing, Priority, and the Stack," and
rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities."

Your thought would lead to something like:

1. You get priority and play some artifact spell. (Grinding Station is
already in play and tapped.) The cost is paid using mana obtained in an
unspecified way.
2. You get priority and pass.
3. Opponent gets priority and passes.
4. The top object on the stack (the spell played in step 1) resolves.
The artifact comes into play. This triggers Grinding Station's second
ability.
5. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
the stack. You put the "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you may
untap Grinding Station." ability on the stack.
6. You get priority and pass.
7. Opponent gets priority and passes.
8. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5) tries
to resolve. The artifact is no longer coming into play (that having
completed way back in step 4), so the ability is actually countered.

This would kill ALL event-based triggers.

> Is there a rule for how long or when a trigger's condition is true?
> Perhaps I'm making it just a little harder than it is drawing analogy
> perhaps falsely regarding target disappearance etc. ie: Like a
> boomeranged O-Stone. Triggers happen before instants from what I can
> tell as well and when someone has two triggers out, they decide. ie:
> Cowardice Horobi, Death's Wail.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "boomeranged O-Stone". Using Boomerang
on an Oblivion Stone in response to its "4, T: Put a fate counter on
target permanent." ability would not interfere with that ability at all.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris Mattern wrote:
> > Sorceries & permanents can only be played and put on the stack when
> > 1) it's your own main phase, and 2) there is nothing currently on
> > the stack.
>
> So it's like this then. I can on my turn.
>
> my Sorcery
> their Instant
> my Instant
> my Instant
> their Instant/Ability/Trigger
> they pass priority
> my Sorcery
> my Sorcery
>
> (all on the stack) and they then resolve LIFO correct? Of course, since
> I have priority after my first Sorcery, that very well could be my
> Instant and it would go on first. Correct?

First off, they can't play an Instant until they get priority; you
didn't describe passing priority after playing your first Sorcery.

Second, you may play a sorcery card from your hand during a main phase
of your turn, when you have priority AND THE STACK IS EMPTY.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 22 Apr 2005 11:52:19 -0700, Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> Nope. No rule does (or can) enforce this; anything that uses the stack can
>> have responses added on top of it before it can resolve. The four classes of
>> things that use the stack are all nonmana triggered abilities (which Grinding
>> Station's second ability is), all nonmana activated abilities (which Grinding
>> Station's first ability is), all spells, and combat damage.
>
>I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
>vs non. The tricky part to me is when a second non-instant spell. ie: a
>second Sorcery is put on the stack. (or does it use it's own).

The stack is a shared zone of play; there's only one stack. (Sometimes it is
empty.) Normally, Sorceries, creature spells, artifact spells, and enchanment
spells can only be announced ("played") when the stack is empty, so you have
to wait until things are all resolved off the stack before trying to cast your
Sorcery.

>Anyhow, I thought the Grinding Station may need to resolve before it
>can be tapped

Nope. No such restriction exists. [Closest Magic has had was back during
5E, I think, and before when there were such things as "phase abilities".
No such have existed for nearly a decade now...] Having the Grinding Station's
triggered ability on the stack doesn't stop you from playing its activated
ability; in general, activated abilities can respond to other things that use
the stack just fine. (It also doesn't stop the triggered ability from
triggering again, if another artifact somehow comes into play.)

>at which point, it's too late to trigger an "artifact
>coming into play"...the trigger can check whenever it wants...just
>that, it won't find anything and so won't untap.

I think I see the problem here.

The Grinding Station _spell_ has to resolve and come into play before you
can use the artifact's -activated- ability, yes. However, as part of coming
into play (the last part, essentially) everything is checked to see if it
has any comes-into-play triggered abilities which match what just came into
play... including the Grinding Station itself. And it does have an ability
whose trigger event matches its own coming into play, so its own ability
does trigger off it coming into play.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>So does it go like this then?
>
>Grinding station spell on stack
>resolved Grinding station in play.
>Stack empty.
>
>Trigger on stack.
>(Trigger checks here for artifact coming into play.) YES.
>Tap goes on stack
>Mill effect resolves
>Trigger resolves untapping Grinding Station.

Yes.

>But I was thinking it was like this:
>
>Grinding station spell on stack
>resolved Grinding station in play.
>Stack empty.
>
>Trigger on stack.
>Tap goes on stack
>Mill effect resolves
>Trigger resolves
> (Trigger first checks artifact just coming into play.) NO.
>Trigger doesn't resolve/fizzles not untapping Grinding Station.

Nope. It doesn't 'check again to see if the trigger event is still going
on', in general.

>Is there a rule for when a trigger is checked.. I thought it might need
>to be checked when it resolves like other spells check for targets.

Nope. Trigger events, in -general-, are checked only as the ability would
trigger.

There is one special type of triggered ability, a 'conditional' one, which
does check a condition on announcement (to see if it triggers at all) and
on resolution (to see if the effect actually happens). You can tell these
apart from the others by the "if" clause, set off by commas, right after
the trigger event. For example, "Whenever Scaredy-Merfolk attacks, if
opponent controls more than three creatures, remove it from combat."; this
woul have a trigger event of "Whenever <this> attacks", but it would also
check the condition "does opponent control more than three creatures?" on
trying to trigger. If opponent did not, it wouldn't trigger at all. If
opponent did, but didn't any more when this ability went to resolve, it
would resolve but have No Effect.

>Is there a rule for how long or when a trigger's condition is true?

The trigger event is just checked right when it would trigger. Some
triggered abilities, conditional ones, have an extra condition that's
checked both then and on resolution. Most triggered abilities are not
conditional.

>Perhaps I'm making it just a little harder than it is drawing analogy
>perhaps falsely regarding target disappearance etc. ie: Like a
>boomeranged O-Stone. Triggers happen before instants

Nope.

Triggers -trigger- right when their trigger event happens.

Triggers -get put onto the stack- before anyone has priority again - that
is, before anyone can add anything NEW to the stack.

But once they're on the stack, triggered abilities work just like everything
else that uses the stack, and wait for responses before they resolve, and
resolve before whatever they're on top of. They do not 'resolve first no
matter what' or anything like that.

>from what I can
>tell as well and when someone has two triggers out, they decide. ie:
>Cowardice Horobi, Death's Wail.

They do decide, if they control both abilities, what order they go ONTO the
stack in. This then determines what order they'll later resolve in - the one
that got put on on top resolves first. But no, the someone is not deciding
things' orders _as they are resolving_.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>Chris Mattern wrote:
>> > I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie: instant
>> > vs non.

Not sure -how- I skipped over this in the original. Forget the word 'speed'
- all it will EVER do is confuse you, in Magic.

>> Then you believe a fallacy. All spells and effects use the stack in
>> exactly the same way, except for mana effects, which don't use it at
>> all. Sorceries and permanent spells have limits as to when they may
>> be placed on the stack, but once there, act the same as any other spell.

Right.

>> Sorceries & permanents can only be played and put on the stack when
>> 1) it's your own main phase, and 2) there is nothing currently on
>> the stack.
>
>So it's like this then. I can on my turn.
>
>my Sorcery

you pass

>their Instant

they pass

>my Instant
>my Instant

you pass

>their Instant/Ability/Trigger
>they pass priority

Good so far. Except that extra passes are needed as indicated, because once
someone adds a spell or activated ability to the stack, that person gets
priority again.

>my Sorcery
>my Sorcery

Nope. You can't cast a Sorcery right now; there are <counts> five different
things on this stack. You can't cast a Sorcery unless the stack is -empty-.

>(all on the stack) and they then resolve LIFO correct?

Well, if you had Sorceries that said they could 'be played any time you
could play an instant', that would work.

One other thing: in order for something to resolve off the stack, both
players have to pass in succession. EVERY time. This means that the stack
doesn't just "resolve LIFO" once people are done adding things; rather,
both players pass; one thing resolves. Active player gets priority. If
neither player wants to add anything more, both pass AGAIN, and the next
thing resolves. Repeat. (And of course any time you have priority, you can
add an Instant or an activated ability to the stack, meaning you both get
several chances to do so in the course of resolving these five items.)

>Of course, since
>I have priority after my first Sorcery, that very well could be my
>Instant and it would go on first. Correct?

Er: No, I think. Not sure WHAT you mean here.

If you mean "After I add my initial Sorcery to the stack, I get priority
again, and can add an Instant directly on top of it", that would be
correct. But if you mean something like "I can add an Instant after the
Sorcery is on and it somehow retroactively goes on first", then no no no.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
> Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So does it go like this then?
> >
> > Grinding station spell on stack
> > resolved Grinding station in play.
> > Stack empty.
> >
> > Trigger on stack.
> > (Trigger checks here for artifact coming into play.) YES.
> > Tap goes on stack
> > Mill effect resolves
> > Trigger resolves untapping Grinding Station.
> >
> > But I was thinking it was like this:
> >
> > Grinding station spell on stack
> > resolved Grinding station in play.
> > Stack empty.
> >
> > Trigger on stack.
> > Tap goes on stack
> > Mill effect resolves
> > Trigger resolves
> > (Trigger first checks artifact just coming into play.) NO.
> > Trigger doesn't resolve/fizzles not untapping Grinding Station.
>
> It goes like this:
>
> 1. You get priority and play Grinding Station. The cost is paid
using 2
> mana obtained in an unspecified way.
> 2. You get priority and pass.
> 3. Opponent gets priority and passes.
> 4. The top object on the stack (the spell played in step 1) resolves.
> Grinding Station comes into play. This triggers its comes-into-play
> ability.
> 5. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
> the stack. You put the "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you
may
> untap Grinding Station." ability on the stack.
> 6. You get priority and play the "T, Sacrifice an artifact: Target
> player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her
> graveyard." ability of Grinding Station. You choose your opponent as
> the target, and you pay the cost by tapping Grinding Station and
> sacrificing an artifact (which presumably was already in play before
all
> this started).
> 7. You get priority and pass.
> 8. Opponent gets priority and passes.
> 9. The top object on the stack (the ability played in step 6)
resolves.
> Opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or
her
> graveyard.
> 10. You get priority and pass.
> 11. Opponent gets priority and passes.
> 12. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5)
> resolves. You decide to untap Grinding Station. You untap Grinding
> Station.
> 13. You get priority ....

Wow. Very detailed. And it appears very accurate too so thank you.

> > Is there a rule for when a trigger is checked.. I thought it might
need
> > to be checked when it resolves like other spells check for targets.

Ah, someone got me straight that I might have been remembering "if" or
"conditional" triggers when I read the rulebook a month ago.

> 404. Triggered Abilities
>
> 404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word "when," "whenever,"
or
> "at." The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger
condition,
> which defines the trigger event.
>
> 404.2. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, a triggered
ability
> automatically "triggers" each time its trigger event occurs. Once an
> ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a player
would
> receive priority. See rule 408.1, "Timing, Priority, and the Stack,"
and
> rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities."
>
> Your thought would lead to something like:
>
> 1. You get priority and play some artifact spell. (Grinding Station
is
> already in play and tapped.) The cost is paid using mana obtained in
an
> unspecified way.
> 2. You get priority and pass.
> 3. Opponent gets priority and passes.
> 4. The top object on the stack (the spell played in step 1) resolves.
> The artifact comes into play. This triggers Grinding Station's
second
> ability.
> 5. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
> the stack. You put the "Whenever an artifact comes into play, you
may
> untap Grinding Station." ability on the stack.
> 6. You get priority and pass.
> 7. Opponent gets priority and passes.
> 8. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5)
tries
> to resolve. The artifact is no longer coming into play (that having
> completed way back in step 4), so the ability is actually countered.

>
> This would kill ALL event-based triggers.

Yes. I see what you mean...it's just interesting that when it resolves,
the "checking" has already occured and there is no "condition" or
"target disappearance" to check (unless I suppose there was a target in
the trigger) in which case it might "fizzle".

> > Is there a rule for how long or when a trigger's condition is true?
> > Perhaps I'm making it just a little harder than it is drawing
analogy
> > perhaps falsely regarding target disappearance etc. ie: Like a
> > boomeranged O-Stone. Triggers happen before instants from what I
can
> > tell as well and when someone has two triggers out, they decide.
ie:
> > Cowardice Horobi, Death's Wail.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "boomeranged O-Stone". Using
Boomerang
> on an Oblivion Stone in response to its "4, T: Put a fate counter on
> target permanent." ability would not interfere with that ability at
all.

No, Sacrifice O-Stone. The more "critical" effect of that card. Sorry,
that was ambiguous. If the Boomerang bounces it in response to sac, it
is a bit different than Timmy lobbing damage (the example I've read
about in these rules forums), in the sense that the O-stone needs to
have it's target (self) to sac I think. Or am I wrong there? I just
thought that in a classic match I saw where two pros were
playing....ie: MUC vs T&N (type II). I saw boomerang sided in for the
O-stone and the O-stone bounced when it was going off. BTW, in the
Timmy case, I believe "prevent damage" and "stifle" effects are the
only effects that would negate timmy damage (Prodigal Sorcerer). ie:
his effect goes on the stack. With O-stone, it's effect might go on the
stack and I don't think paying costs is exempt like tapping for mana is
it? I forget. Perhaps it is.

H


> --
> Daniel W. Johnson
> panoptes@iquest.net
> http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
> 039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Chris Mattern wrote:
> >> > I'm aware that spells use the stack (at various "speeds") ie:
instant
> >> > vs non.
>
> Not sure -how- I skipped over this in the original. Forget the word
'speed'
> - all it will EVER do is confuse you, in Magic.
>
> >> Then you believe a fallacy. All spells and effects use the stack
in
> >> exactly the same way, except for mana effects, which don't use it
at
> >> all. Sorceries and permanent spells have limits as to when they
may
> >> be placed on the stack, but once there, act the same as any other
spell.
>
> Right.
>
> >> Sorceries & permanents can only be played and put on the stack
when
> >> 1) it's your own main phase, and 2) there is nothing currently on
> >> the stack.
> >
> >So it's like this then. I can on my turn.
> >
> >my Sorcery
>
> you pass
>
> >their Instant
>
> they pass
>
> >my Instant
> >my Instant
>
> you pass
>
> >their Instant/Ability/Trigger
> >they pass priority
>
> Good so far. Except that extra passes are needed as indicated,
because once
> someone adds a spell or activated ability to the stack, that person
gets
> priority again.
>
> >my Sorcery
> >my Sorcery
>
> Nope. You can't cast a Sorcery right now; there are <counts> five
different
> things on this stack. You can't cast a Sorcery unless the stack is
-empty-.

Is that true of all slower than instant spells? Or is it just that
these spells:

Creature/Enchantment/Artifact/Sorcery

and playing a Land

all simply go first on a stack when a stack is empty. This would make
sense.

> >(all on the stack) and they then resolve LIFO correct?
>
> Well, if you had Sorceries that said they could 'be played any time
you
> could play an instant', that would work.

Are there such Sorceries? (btw, my background starts in Unlimited and
the first sets of expansions up to Alliances and then restarts back up
in Mirrodin to the present and occasionally in between...but
unfortunately, none of Urza's block until I started playing a couple
years ago.

> One other thing: in order for something to resolve off the stack,
both
> players have to pass in succession. EVERY time. This means that the
stack
> doesn't just "resolve LIFO" once people are done adding things;
rather,
> both players pass; one thing resolves. Active player gets priority.
If
> neither player wants to add anything more, both pass AGAIN, and the
next
> thing resolves. Repeat. (And of course any time you have priority,
you can
> add an Instant or an activated ability to the stack, meaning you both
get
> several chances to do so in the course of resolving these five
items.)

Ah, so if you forgot to put something on the stack, as each item comes
off, each player has a chance to add more responses....essentially even
those times when someone put two things on the stack together...which
can actually be disrupted.

> >Of course, since
> >I have priority after my first Sorcery, that very well could be my
> >Instant and it would go on first. Correct?
>
> Er: No, I think. Not sure WHAT you mean here.

I mean, I have priority since it would be my turn. I was saying, my
examples shows the other player responding to a Sorcery but I could
play a sorcery and then put an instant on it right after and I could do
so before the other play because of priority...of course, the other
player could wait until my instant resolves off the stack which is what
I think you said.

> If you mean "After I add my initial Sorcery to the stack, I get
priority
> again, and can add an Instant directly on top of it", that would be
> correct.

Yes.

> But if you mean something like "I can add an Instant after the
> Sorcery is on and it somehow retroactively goes on first", then no no
no.

Oh, no. Although that is interesting when some people use the "speed
analogy" that way. Hadn't thought of that.

> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows
the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for
anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Yes. I see what you mean...it's just interesting that when it
resolves,
> >the "checking" has already occured and there is no "condition" or
> >"target disappearance" to check (unless I suppose there was a target
in
> >the trigger) in which case it might "fizzle".
>
> Right. The things that "check twice, on announcement and again on
resolution"
> are target legality, and conditions in conditional triggers. Nothing
else
> in general does. (A very few cards have a check "if ~ is still in
play" as
> part of their effect, but they generally have good reason for needing
to
> do so: Parallax Wave/Tide, Animate Dead and its two brothers.)
>
> >> I'm not sure what you mean by a "boomeranged O-Stone".
> >
> >No, Sacrifice O-Stone. The more "critical" effect of that card.
Sorry,
> >that was ambiguous. If the Boomerang bounces it in response to sac,
>
> then someone has made a play error:
>
> Oblivion Stone 3 Artifact
> 4, T: Put a fate counter on target permanent. / 5,Tap,Sacrifice ~:
Destroy
> each nonland permanent without a fate counter on it, then remove all
fate
> counters from all permanents.
>
> If you're talking about the second ability? The sacrifice is part of
the COST
> of the ability. It is done on announcement, and the Stone is GONE
from play
> by the time anyone (including you) can respond.
>
> It is Not Possible to Boomerang something that has already been
sacrificed,
> as Boomerang can't target something in someone's graveyard. This is
probably
> why Daniel was confused about your scenario, since he knew that
couldn't be
> what you were asking about.
>
> Remember: costs are paid on announcement. Effects occur on
resolution. In
> between, the ability waits on the stack while any responses are dealt
with,
> waiting to hear everyone pass in succession while it's on top of the
stack.

So how can one deal with O-stone other than say Damping Matrix or
Stifle?

> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows
the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for
anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>Yes. I see what you mean...it's just interesting that when it resolves,
>the "checking" has already occured and there is no "condition" or
>"target disappearance" to check (unless I suppose there was a target in
>the trigger) in which case it might "fizzle".

Right. The things that "check twice, on announcement and again on resolution"
are target legality, and conditions in conditional triggers. Nothing else
in general does. (A very few cards have a check "if ~ is still in play" as
part of their effect, but they generally have good reason for needing to
do so: Parallax Wave/Tide, Animate Dead and its two brothers.)

>> I'm not sure what you mean by a "boomeranged O-Stone".
>
>No, Sacrifice O-Stone. The more "critical" effect of that card. Sorry,
>that was ambiguous. If the Boomerang bounces it in response to sac,

then someone has made a play error:

Oblivion Stone 3 Artifact
4, T: Put a fate counter on target permanent. / 5,Tap,Sacrifice ~: Destroy
each nonland permanent without a fate counter on it, then remove all fate
counters from all permanents.

If you're talking about the second ability? The sacrifice is part of the COST
of the ability. It is done on announcement, and the Stone is GONE from play
by the time anyone (including you) can respond.

It is Not Possible to Boomerang something that has already been sacrificed,
as Boomerang can't target something in someone's graveyard. This is probably
why Daniel was confused about your scenario, since he knew that couldn't be
what you were asking about.

Remember: costs are paid on announcement. Effects occur on resolution. In
between, the ability waits on the stack while any responses are dealt with,
waiting to hear everyone pass in succession while it's on top of the stack.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nope. You can't cast a Sorcery right now; there are <counts> five different
>> things on this stack. You can't cast a Sorcery unless the stack is -empty-.
>
>Is that true of all slower than instant spells? Or is it just that
>these spells:

FORGET THE CONCEPT OF "SPEED" ENTIRELY. It will _only_ confuse you. Nothing
in Magic is 'slower' or 'faster' than anything else. "Fast effects" have not
existed since 4th Edition.

No spells _other than_ (I'm not specifying 'slower than' here, because no
spells are slower or faster than instant spells, because that's not a
relevant measure of ANYTHING in Magic) Instant spells can be cast when the
stack isn't empty. Only Instant spells, and activated abilities, can be
played in response to something else; nonInstant spells have to wait for
the stack to be empty. (They also have to wait for it to be the caster's
turn and the caster's main phase and for the caster to have priority.
Instant spells just have to wait for the caster to have priority.)

>Creature/Enchantment/Artifact/Sorcery

None of these can be cast in response to something else, correct. (Except
if the spell SAYS "You may play ~ any time you could play an Instant"; in
that case it follows the Instant timing rules.)

>and playing a Land

You can only play a land any time you could play a Sorcery, correct.

>> Well, if you had Sorceries that said they could 'be played any time you
>> could play an instant', that would work.
>
>Are there such Sorceries?

Yes, several. Not very many at all percentage-wise, but there is a cycle of
five Sorceries that all say "You may play ~ any time you could play an Instant
if you pay two more to play it", and Vedalken Orrery lets you play any
nonland card any time you could play an instant.

>(btw, my background starts in Unlimited and
>the first sets of expansions up to Alliances and then restarts back up
>in Mirrodin to the present and occasionally in between...but
>unfortunately, none of Urza's block until I started playing a couple
>years ago.

Oracle - well, now it's the Gatherer page, gatherer.wizards.com - is your
friend. (Sometimes it is your weird creepy friend, but it is still your
friend.)

And yes, the rules are somewhat different these days than they were back in
Revised/4E days...

>> One other thing: in order for something to resolve off the stack, both
>> players have to pass in succession. EVERY time. This means that the stack
>> doesn't just "resolve LIFO" once people are done adding things; rather,
>> both players pass; one thing resolves. Active player gets priority. If
>> neither player wants to add anything more, both pass AGAIN, and the next
>> thing resolves. Repeat. (And of course any time you have priority, you can
>> add an Instant or an activated ability to the stack, meaning you both get
>> several chances to do so in the course of resolving these five items.)
>
>Ah, so if you forgot to put something on the stack, as each item comes
>off, each player has a chance to add more responses....essentially even
>those times when someone put two things on the stack together...which
>can actually be disrupted.

Right. Back in 5th Edition and previously, a "batch" resolved all the way
down to the bottom once it started resolving. 6th Edition and the "stack"
rules changed that.

>> >Of course, since
>> >I have priority after my first Sorcery, that very well could be my
>> >Instant and it would go on first. Correct?
>>
>> Er: No, I think. Not sure WHAT you mean here.
>
>I mean, I have priority since it would be my turn.

After something resolves off the stack, then yes, active player gets
priority. (After a spell or activated ability is put ONTO the stack by
playing it normally, then the player who played it gets priority again.)

>I was saying, my
>examples shows the other player responding to a Sorcery but I could
>play a sorcery and then put an instant on it right after and I could do
>so before the other play because of priority...of course, the other
>player could wait until my instant resolves off the stack which is what
>I think you said.

Right. You can get them ONTO the stack without anyone interfering in
between. But then you have to wait for them to resolve, and they do so
one by one, with pauses in between where anyone can add new stuff.

>Oh, no. Although that is interesting when some people use the "speed
>analogy" that way. Hadn't thought of that.

Which is why "speed" isn't useful; it refers to at least three different
things, and the one the person is trying to use it for is never, somehow,
the one that would be relevant. Each thingy has its own rules or limits
on when it can go onto the stack and how; once something's on the stack,
it uses the same rules as anything else for when it resolves. (Interrupts
and their timing also Vanished when 6th Edition came in, thankfully, as did
damage-prevention step.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:

> So how can one deal with O-stone other than say Damping Matrix or
> Stifle?

Once the ability has been played? Not by messing with the source. Once
activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its source as
an ability on the stack.

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the
source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is that true of all slower than instant spells? Or is it just that
> these spells:
>
> Creature/Enchantment/Artifact/Sorcery
>
> and playing a Land
>
> all simply go first on a stack when a stack is empty. This would make
> sense.

In the absence of something like Vedalken Orrery or Vernal Equinox (or
"You may play Ghitu Fire any time you could play an instant if you pay 2
more to play it."), those other types of spells will simply be on the
bottom of the stack and won't be able to resolve until they are the only
thing on the stack. (Playing a land doesn't use the stack, but it does
require an empty stack.)

> I mean, I have priority since it would be my turn. I was saying, my
> examples shows the other player responding to a Sorcery but I could
> play a sorcery and then put an instant on it right after and I could do
> so before the other play because of priority...of course, the other
> player could wait until my instant resolves off the stack which is what
> I think you said.

Being your turn means that you are the first to get priority in each
step/phase (other than untap and cleanup) and after something resolves.
You'll have to pass priority at least once before each of your
spells/abilities resolves and before the step/phase ends. (That's when
your opponent gets a chance to play something.)

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It is Not Possible to Boomerang something that has already been sacrificed,
>> as Boomerang can't target something in someone's graveyard. This is probably
>> why Daniel was confused about your scenario, since he knew that couldn't be
>> what you were asking about.
>
>So how can one deal with O-stone other than say Damping Matrix or
>Stifle?

Why, deal with it while it's tapped, of course. Since "tap" is part of the
first ability, if he wants to save any of his stuff at all you get a window.
Or deal with it while he doesn't HAVE 5 mana with which to use it. Or give him
some more immediate threat to focus on, like a Mindslaver.

Dave "but this is .strategy's meat, not .rules'" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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David DeLaney wrote:
> Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> It is Not Possible to Boomerang something that has already been
sacrificed,
> >> as Boomerang can't target something in someone's graveyard. This
is probably
> >> why Daniel was confused about your scenario, since he knew that
couldn't be
> >> what you were asking about.
> >
> >So how can one deal with O-stone other than say Damping Matrix or
> >Stifle?
>
> Why, deal with it while it's tapped, of course. Since "tap" is part
of the
> first ability, if he wants to save any of his stuff at all you get a
window.
> Or deal with it while he doesn't HAVE 5 mana with which to use it. Or
give him
> some more immediate threat to focus on, like a Mindslaver.

I think this is why few if any will ever tap it...unless they are sure
they can get away without someone having: oxidize, shatter, boomerang,
terashi's grasp, (I forget what black has but it typically is weak in
dealing with artifacts) but then it's easy enough to splash for
artifacts like: icy/damping, etc etc. (Mindslaver as you mentioned is a
good one).

So if someone taps as part of cost, can Icy Manipulator do anything
useful when it comes to tap activated things? Was that one part of the
rules that changed? I mean, they can tap either as cost or in response.

> Dave "but this is .strategy's meat, not .rules'" DeLaney
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows
the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for
anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.