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Damage on the stack question

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Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:22:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Situation came up today on magic workstation:

Opponent has an attacking Scryb Sprites with Briar Shield enchanting it. I
am on 3 life. Scryb Sprites attacks and is not blocked, doing 2 damage and
opponent sacs Briar Shield to make Sprites effectively 4/4, thus doing 4
damage.

Question: Can I play Pulse of the Forge and save myself from going to -1
and thus losing?

Basically when can I play Pulse in response to damage being dealt and when
does the fact i got to -1 life resolve, thus causing me to lose?

Thanks
LT.

More about : damage stack question

Anonymous
May 2, 2005 11:22:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:22:56 GMT, MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
>Situation came up today on magic workstation:
>
>Opponent has an attacking Scryb Sprites with Briar Shield enchanting it. I
>am on 3 life. Scryb Sprites attacks and is not blocked, doing 2 damage and
>opponent sacs Briar Shield to make Sprites effectively 4/4, thus doing 4
>damage.

Okay. To do this, opponent must have sacced the Shield _before_ combat damage
went onto the stack. (He can still do so after it's on the stack, of course,
but if he does, the 2 damage is already assigned, and changing the Sprite's
power doesn't change how MUCH damage was already assigned.)

>Question: Can I play Pulse of the Forge and save myself from going to -1
>and thus losing?

This had to be done before combat-damage step (combat damage goes on
the stack as that step starts) in order to get the Sprite to put 4 damage
on the stack, not 2. That means both of you get at LEAST one chance before
declare-blockers step CAN end, to do other stuff; you can Pulse before the
Sprite can put combat damage on the stack.

However: read the Pulse please - you can't Pulse the SPRITE at all. It can only
target a player. If _opponent_ were at 3 life, you could Pulse him and kill
him, before combat damage goes on the stack (but that raises the question of
why you didn't do so already). But the Sprite is safe from your Pulse of the
Forge.

If you had an Instant that could deal 4 damage to the Sprite, then sure, you
could use it on it and kill the Sprite before its combat damage went onto
the stack. But the question you asked appears to not be the right question
for your situation, as you describe it.

>Basically when can I play Pulse in response to damage being dealt and when
>does the fact i got to -1 life resolve, thus causing me to lose?

You will go to -1 life the moment combat damage resolves off the stack. You
will lose just after that, as a state-based effect. You may Pulse in response
to combat damage, but a) as noted about, THIS Pulse can't target a creature,
only a player, so it can't do anything to the Sprite to start with (though
you could kill _yourself_ with the Pulse before the combat damage can kill
you, but I sense that's not an answer you were looking for) and b) you can't
do anything to the combat damage once it's already on the stack by fiddling
with the creature(s) it's from - you'd have to do so BEFORE combat damage went
onto the stack. Fortunately, the Briar Shield also has to change the Sprite's
power before combat damage goes onto the stack, to affect how much goes on,
for exactly the same reason...

Summary: If he pumps the Sprite with the Briar Shield to have it do more
damage, he has to do so before combat damage goes on the stack, giving you
the chance to do stuff to the Sprite, also before combat damage goes onto the
stack. But: you can't do anything to the Sprite with Pulse of the Forge at
any time.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
May 2, 2005 3:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Yes you can play Pulse of the field, but you have to do it while the
damage is on the stack and has not resolve, so that you gain 4 life
points before damage resolves.

Carl

MonoJoker wrote:
> Situation came up today on magic workstation:
>
> Opponent has an attacking Scryb Sprites with Briar Shield enchanting it. I
> am on 3 life. Scryb Sprites attacks and is not blocked, doing 2 damage and
> opponent sacs Briar Shield to make Sprites effectively 4/4, thus doing 4
> damage.
>
> Question: Can I play Pulse of the Forge and save myself from going to -1
> and thus losing?
>
> Basically when can I play Pulse in response to damage being dealt and when
> does the fact i got to -1 life resolve, thus causing me to lose?
>
> Thanks
> LT.
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 3:52:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd7bmdr.543.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:22:56 GMT, MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au>
wrote:
> >Situation came up today on magic workstation:
> >
> >Opponent has an attacking Scryb Sprites with Briar Shield enchanting it.
I
> >am on 3 life. Scryb Sprites attacks and is not blocked, doing 2 damage
and
> >opponent sacs Briar Shield to make Sprites effectively 4/4, thus doing 4
> >damage.
>
> Okay. To do this, opponent must have sacced the Shield _before_ combat
damage
> went onto the stack. (He can still do so after it's on the stack, of
course,
> but if he does, the 2 damage is already assigned, and changing the
Sprite's
> power doesn't change how MUCH damage was already assigned.)
>
> >Question: Can I play Pulse of the Forge and save myself from going to -1
> >and thus losing?
>
> This had to be done before combat-damage step (combat damage goes on
> the stack as that step starts) in order to get the Sprite to put 4 damage
> on the stack, not 2. That means both of you get at LEAST one chance before
> declare-blockers step CAN end, to do other stuff; you can Pulse before the
> Sprite can put combat damage on the stack.
>
> However: read the Pulse please - you can't Pulse the SPRITE at all. It can
only
> target a player. If _opponent_ were at 3 life, you could Pulse him and
kill
> him, before combat damage goes on the stack (but that raises the question
of
> why you didn't do so already). But the Sprite is safe from your Pulse of
the
> Forge.

Bugger I meant Pulse of the FIELDS to prevent me going to -1 life :-(

Cheers
LT.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 3:52:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
>"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> >Question: Can I play Pulse of the Forge and save myself from going to -1
>> >and thus losing?
>
>Bugger I meant Pulse of the FIELDS to prevent me going to -1 life :-(

Oh, okay - and that changes the answer too. You can gain the life any time
before the combat damage resolves and gets dealt. Once the damage resolves and
gets dealt, you will not be able to do anything new before state-based effects
cause you to lose, so you want to gain the life before this happens.

So you can do so either in response to him using the Briar Shield; after that
has resolved but before declare-blockers step has ended; or in response to
combat damage. Any of those will get you the lifegain before the damage gets
dealt. What you can't do is "wait until the damage is dealt, then try to fix
things before you die".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
May 2, 2005 9:13:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 2 May 2005, MonoJoker wrote:

> Bugger I meant Pulse of the FIELDS to prevent me going to -1 life :-(

Note that there's no stack-trick to get the Pulse back into your hand
by playing it after damage is dealt so that your opponent has more
life, since you would lose before you could play it.

--
David
May 9, 2005 5:32:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:22:56 GMT, MonoJoker
<monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
> If you had an Instant that could deal 4 damage to the Sprite, then
sure, you
> could use it on it and kill the Sprite before its combat damage went
onto
> the stack.

Truth be told, if you had a Shock or some other instant way to deal 2
damage, you could use it in response to the sac'ing of the Briar
Shield. It would go on the stack on top of the Briar Shield's
activiation, and resolve first, killing the 2/2 Sprites before the
Shield could pump them to 4/4.

Just in case you are short some 4 damage spells, but have a 2 damage
one lying around.

Scryb Sprites and Briar Shields, huh? Maybe your opponent should join
us in the 21st century. :) 

Peter
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:07:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 9 May 2005 13:32:40 -0700, Risser <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:22:56 GMT, MonoJoker
><monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
>> If you had an Instant that could deal 4 damage to the Sprite, then
>sure, you
>> could use it on it and kill the Sprite before its combat damage went
>onto
>> the stack.
>
>Truth be told, if you had a Shock or some other instant way to deal 2
>damage, you could use it in response to the sac'ing of the Briar
>Shield. It would go on the stack on top of the Briar Shield's
>activiation, and resolve first, killing the 2/2 Sprites before the
>Shield could pump them to 4/4.

Nope. "if you had a Prodigal Sorcerer or some other way to deal _1_ damage
in response, you could use it... ...killing the _1/1_ Sprites before the..."

Nothing in the rules says the +1/+1 from the Shield's static ability lasts
beyond the time the Shield itself leaves play, on _announcement_ of its
activated ability; the Sprites go from 2/2 before you announce the ability, to
1/1 after its announcement (because the Shield is now gone), to 4/4 after its
resolution.

>Just in case you are short some 4 damage spells, but have a 2 damage
>one lying around.

Or a 1-damage one.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 1:51:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 9 May 2005 13:32:40 -0700, "Risser" <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Scryb Sprites and Briar Shields, huh? Maybe your opponent should join
>us in the 21st century. :) 

Hey! Don't diss the scryb sprites. I take it you've never been hit with a
first turn forest/scryb sprites, second turn lotus-triple giant growthed,
berserked flying bundle of rage swinging for 20.


Jasper (okay, yes, a T1 deck that kills Turn 2 if there are no counters in
the other guy's hand with the almightiest of God Hands *is* kind of lame)
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:56:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 9 May 2005, Risser wrote:

> Truth be told, if you had a Shock or some other instant way to deal 2
> damage, you could use it in response to the sac'ing of the Briar
> Shield. It would go on the stack on top of the Briar Shield's
> activiation, and resolve first, killing the 2/2 Sprites before the
> Shield could pump them to 4/4.

This would even work with 1 damage since the Sprites are 1/1 in
between activation and resolution of the Briar Shield's ability.

--
David
!