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Sacrificing creature to increase its own damage

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Anonymous
May 11, 2005 10:30:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello.

Playing yesterday with some friends: 3 "sad" 1/1 goblins attacked me.
I didn't block them, and my opponent tried to sacrifice them using
another gobling with some ability like "Sacrifice a goblin: target
goblin wins +1/+1 until end of turn". I think it's impossible to make
6 damage using this, because:

1.- If you sacrifice them BEFORE damage step, there is no damage at
all.

2.- If you sacrifice them AFTER damage step, the damage has been
dealed. The creatures dead as 2/2, but it's not useful...

Is this correct? (I won the game with my two rest lifes)

Thank you!
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 11:02:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Eibi wrote:
> Hello.
>
> Playing yesterday with some friends: 3 "sad" 1/1 goblins attacked me.
> I didn't block them, and my opponent tried to sacrifice them using
> another gobling with some ability like "Sacrifice a goblin: target
> goblin wins +1/+1 until end of turn". I think it's impossible to make
> 6 damage using this, because:

You are right. I suppose one of his cards was Goblin Sledder:
Goblin Sledder
{R}
Creature -- Goblin
1/1
Sacrifice a Goblin: Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

The key for understanding is a colon (":") in the Goblin Sledder's
rules text. What it does:
a) denotes an activated ability (rule 403.1)
b) separates the cost (Sacrifice a Goblin) and the effect (Target
creature gets...)

The cost is paid during the announcement of the activated ability -
then it is put on the stack (see rule 409 for full details). The
effect takes place during the resolution of the ability - when it is on
top of the stack and all players pass in succession (rule 413). By
then the sacrificed Goblin is long gone; moreover, if it was the target
of the ability (and thus is no longer in play when the ability
resolves) the ability is countered on resolution (413.2a) and has no
effect whatsoever.

You'd better go through the full sequence of events with your friends -
this will be a good exercise in understanding how the stack works. I
had very similar misconceptions when I started playing a couple of
years ago...

>
> 1.- If you sacrifice them BEFORE damage step, there is no damage at
> all.
True.
>
> 2.- If you sacrifice them AFTER damage step, the damage has been
> dealed. The creatures dead as 2/2, but it's not useful...
True.
>
> Is this correct? (I won the game with my two rest lifes)
>
> Thank you!

You are most welcome.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 2:07:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news:c5d4f11e.0505110530.393df553@posting.google.com,
Eibi <eibi99@yahoo.com> rambled:
> Hello.
>
> Playing yesterday with some friends: 3 "sad" 1/1 goblins attacked me.
> I didn't block them, and my opponent tried to sacrifice them using
> another gobling with some ability like "Sacrifice a goblin: target
> goblin wins +1/+1 until end of turn". I think it's impossible to make
> 6 damage using this, because:
>
> 1.- If you sacrifice them BEFORE damage step, there is no damage at
> all.

Yep. You're right.

> 2.- If you sacrifice them AFTER damage step, the damage has been
> dealed. The creatures dead as 2/2, but it's not useful...

Well, the dead creature has a power of 1, not 2 (the pump ability never
resolves). If you sacrifice a goblin to, say, Goblin Sledder and choose the
sacrificed creature as the target of the ability (which is very legal), the
creature immediately hits the graveyard and the Sledder's ability is put on
the stack. When it comes time to resolve, it can't because there is no legal
target (it's in the graveyard). In the old days, we'd say it "fizzled", but
now it's Countered on Resolution.

So you're right, your friend can't do this for the reasons you listed above.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:45:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 11 May 2005 06:30:59 -0700, Eibi <eibi99@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Playing yesterday with some friends: 3 "sad" 1/1 goblins attacked me.

"Sad"?

>I didn't block them, and my opponent tried to sacrifice them using
>another gobling with some ability like "Sacrifice a goblin: target
>goblin wins +1/+1 until end of turn". I think it's impossible to make
>6 damage using this, because:

Um, correct. If you sacrifice them, either they're gone before damage gets
put onto the stack, so that they don't put damage onto the stack at ALL, or
they're there when damage gets put onto the stack, at which point the _amount_
they put on the stack is fixed, and changing their power later won't help.

And, to boot, it's not possible to sacrifice something and increase its OWN
power, because once it's sacrificed (as a cost, on announcement, in your
quoted ability), it's GONE. Creature cards in the graveyard aren't creatures
in play, and can't be affected by anything that doesn't SPECIFICALLY SAY it
affects them; trying to give +1/+1 to a creature that's not in play has no
effect. And in this case, since the ability TARGETS the creature? And targetted
spells/abilities check their targets for legality on announcement AND on
resolution? The ability actually gets COUNTERED, rather than just 'resolving
and being unable to affect the creature" the way, say, "1W: Creatures you
control get +1/+1" would.

>1.- If you sacrifice them BEFORE damage step, there is no damage at all.

Right.

>2.- If you sacrifice them AFTER damage step, the damage has been
>dealed. The creatures dead as 2/2, but it's not useful...

Right, as typed.

And you've missed 1.5.- If you sacrifice them DURING damage step, then either

1.5a.- you sacrificed them in response to combat damage, in which case the
damage's AMOUNT is already fixed even though it hasn't resolved and been
dealt yet, or

1.5b.- you sacrificed them, as in 2., _after_ damage has already been dealt,
in which case it won't retroactively somehow make a difference in how much
damage was already dealt.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!