Has this been asked since BoK? Mirror Gallery + Krark's Th..

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Some time ago, when Krark's Thumb first came out, I'd read on
magicthegathering.com that they dealt with the possible confusion over
having two Krark's Thumbs in play by making it Legendary.

Since Mirror Gallery though, it's an issue again...

Has this been asked since?

How do these two interact?

Krark's Thumb
2
Legendary Artifact
If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.

Mirror Gallery
5
Artifact
The "legend rule" doesn't apply.

Does one flip get replaces by two, and then each of those two get
replaced by two more, for a total of four?

Or does only one work, since they replace the ame event?

I also seem to remember hearing an argument for three flips, although
I can't at this time recall what the rationale was...

Thanks,

Rick

 

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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>Some time ago, when Krark's Thumb first came out, I'd read on
>magicthegathering.com that they dealt with the possible confusion over
>having two Krark's Thumbs in play by making it Legendary.
>
>Since Mirror Gallery though, it's an issue again...
>
>Has this been asked since?
>
>How do these two interact?

If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one, for one
Thumb. Then the flip you didn't ignore gets to interact with the other Thumb,
so instead you get to flip another coin and ignore one of -those- two. You end
up with a ... let's see ... instead of a 50-50 chance to get the desired
outcome, you only get a 1-in-eight chance NOT to get the one you want.

(And if you're about to ask "But shouldn't you also flip twice for the ignored
flip?", well, you're going to ignore the outcome of it whatever you do, so
it doesn't make a difference whether you do or not. Yes?)

>Or does only one work, since they replace the ame event?

Both get to replace the event. Each one only gets to replace the event once
- and, since the one event turns into two of the same kind of event,
_technically_ the second one gets to replace two flips - but as noted above,
since you're going to ignore one entirely anyway, regardless of whether it
ends up as one flip or more, it doesn't really do you any good to double-flip
for the flip you're ignoring from the first Thumb.

>I also seem to remember hearing an argument for three flips, although
>I can't at this time recall what the rationale was...

It's essentially three - Thumb #1 makes it two, then Thumb #2 makes the non-
ignored one of those into two, and you end up with one non-ignored flip.

Dave

 

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David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> it doesn't really do you any good to double-flip
> for the flip you're ignoring from the first Thumb.

Except that you get to see the results of the double-flips before you
decide what to ignore, right?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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On 15 May 2005 14:28:26 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one, for one
>Thumb. Then the flip you didn't ignore gets to interact with the other Thumb,
>so instead you get to flip another coin and ignore one of -those- two. You end
>up with a ... let's see ... instead of a 50-50 chance to get the desired
>outcome, you only get a 1-in-eight chance NOT to get the one you want.

It's still 1 in 4, just like with one Thumb. After you do the first
double-flip, you choose the one that is 'correct' for you -- but then you
*have* to replace that flip again with another two. If you get the desired
outcome from Thumb #2, the flip as a whole succeeds, if you don't, it
doesn't. So Thumb #1, in effect, is useless.

>It's essentially three - Thumb #1 makes it two, then Thumb #2 makes the non-
>ignored one of those into two, and you end up with one non-ignored flip.

It's essentially two, legally 4, in my opinion.



Hmm.

Wait.

Doesn't the replacement of the Thumb1 flips by Thumb2's doubleflips happen
*before* you choose which of the two Thumb1 flips to ignore? If that's the
case, you would Thumb2doubleflip for Thumb1 flip 1, then Thumb2doubleflip
for Thumb1 flip2, and only then you'd choose whether to ignore Thumb flip1
or flip2 -- each of which is already the result of a doubleflip. If that
is the case, you get the best result out of *4* flips.

If, on the other hand, you choose which of the two Thumb1 flips to ignore
before either of them get replaced by Thumb2, you end up with the
situation I described above -- but then you'd also have to decide which of
the doubleflip to ignore before actually flipping the coins, so that
cannot possibly be the intention of the card.

Whatever the ruling will be, the *critical* issue will be when you can
choose which of the 2 times 2 flips/doubleflips to ignore.

But my revised opinion says that for the Thumb to have any effect at all,
the timing has to be done in such a away that 2 Thumbs would result in 4
flips.


Jasper

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 15 May 2005 14:28:26 -0400, David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>How do these two interact?
>
>If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one, for one
>Thumb. Then the flip you didn't ignore gets to interact with the other Thumb,
>so instead you get to flip another coin and ignore one of -those- two. You end
>up with a ... let's see ... instead of a 50-50 chance to get the desired
>outcome, you only get a 1-in-eight chance NOT to get the one you want.

After some more brain-hurting thinking, and discussion with others, it does
actually turn out to be one-in-sixteen. The key is that the replacements all
get done before you flip any coins ... so the event you're about to do ends
up as "Flip two coins and ignore one result, and flip two coins and ignore one
result, and ignore one result of those two".

>(And if you're about to ask "But shouldn't you also flip twice for the ignored
>flip?", well, you're going to ignore the outcome of it whatever you do, so
>it doesn't make a difference whether you do or not. Yes?)

No. Does make a difference, it turns out, because you flip before ignoring, so
you get to choose which pair to ignore knowing what-all was flipped. Ow.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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David DeLaney wrote:

>
> No. Does make a difference, it turns out, because you flip before
> ignoring, so you get to choose which pair to ignore knowing what-all was
> flipped. Ow.

And that's all from "That's why they decided to make this one legendary"
theatre for today .
>
> Dave

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 15 May 2005, Rick Kunkel wrote:

>Some time ago, when Krark's Thumb first came out, I'd read on
>magicthegathering.com that they dealt with the possible confusion over
>having two Krark's Thumbs in play by making it Legendary.
>
>Since Mirror Gallery though, it's an issue again...
>
>Has this been asked since?
>
>How do these two interact?
>
>Krark's Thumb
>2
>Legendary Artifact
>If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.
>
>Mirror Gallery
>5
>Artifact
>The "legend rule" doesn't apply.

If I were attempting to resolve this quandry... I'd revise Krark's Thumb
as follows:

***************************

(Revised) Krark's Thumb
2
Artifact

If you would flip a single coin, flip two instead and choose
one to ignore once you have seen the results.

****************************

So multiple Krark's may trigger, but they all result in a replacement of
the original flip and don't apply if more than one coin is being flipped
(i.e. after even one Krark's has already resolved.)

Now I'll let the rules experts pick this apart into itty-bitty shreds. (I
expect I've overlooked some aspect of replacement effects here and the
order they go on the stack or how they interact on resolution when the
original effect has already been replaced... or something.)

Gene P.
Slidell, LA


--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> it doesn't really do you any good to double-flip
>> for the flip you're ignoring from the first Thumb.
>
>Except that you get to see the results of the double-flips before you
>decide what to ignore, right?

Yes, that's the key I was missing, really. Two Thumbs does end up giving
you 15/16 odds in your favor, not 7/8.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On Sun, 15 May 2005 21:36:48 GMT, Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
>>If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one, for one
>>Thumb. Then the flip you didn't ignore gets to interact with the other Thumb,
>>so instead you get to flip another coin and ignore one of -those- two. You end
>>up with a ... let's see ... instead of a 50-50 chance to get the desired
>>outcome, you only get a 1-in-eight chance NOT to get the one you want.
>
>It's still 1 in 4, just like with one Thumb.

Nope, and I have to correct myself above; it's one in _sixteen_.

>After you do the first
>double-flip, you choose the one that is 'correct' for you -- but then you
>*have* to replace that flip again with another two. If you get the desired
>outcome from Thumb #2, the flip as a whole succeeds, if you don't, it
>doesn't. So Thumb #1, in effect, is useless.

Look again, and this is what I was missing before - you do ALL the replacing
before you do ANY of the flips. So you don't flip two coins "in the middle of
replacing", ignore one, then go on from there; instead, you replace, replace
again, and end up doing an event that is "flip two coins and ignore one result,
flip two more coins and ignore one result, and ignore one of the two results".

In which the only outcome where you DON'T get to get the flip you want is
if all four flips ended up the other way.

>Wait.
>
>Doesn't the replacement of the Thumb1 flips by Thumb2's doubleflips happen
>*before* you choose which of the two Thumb1 flips to ignore?

Ding.

>If that is the case, you get the best result out of *4* flips.

Ding.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> No. Does make a difference, it turns out, because you flip before
>> ignoring, so you get to choose which pair to ignore knowing what-all was
>> flipped. Ow.
>
>And that's all from "That's why they decided to make this one legendary"
>theatre for today .

Also known as "If you want to work for Wizards directly, there will be some
tests to pass; please bring a towel"...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>Now I'll let the rules experts pick this apart into itty-bitty shreds. (I
>expect I've overlooked some aspect of replacement effects here and the
>order they go on the stack or how they interact on resolution when the
>original effect has already been replaced... or something.)

Note that replacement effects don't use the stack at all. (_Making_ a
replacement effect in the first place might, or the replacement effect might
be from a static ability. But -using- the replacement effect doesn't use
the stack; that would be a REAL nightmare...) They apply just before you'd
get to do the event that the effect is trying to replace; the player who
would be affected by the event, or whose cards/tokens/permanents would be,
picks one replacement effect to apply to the upcoming event, which mutates it,
then repeats until there are no more to apply, then does the actual mutated
event.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On Wed, 18 May 2005, Gene P. wrote:

>
> On Sun, 15 May 2005, Rick Kunkel wrote:
>
>> Some time ago, when Krark's Thumb first came out, I'd read on
>> magicthegathering.com that they dealt with the possible confusion over
>> having two Krark's Thumbs in play by making it Legendary.
>>
>> Since Mirror Gallery though, it's an issue again...
>>
>> Has this been asked since?
>>
>> How do these two interact?
>>
>> Krark's Thumb
>> 2
>> Legendary Artifact
>> If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.
>>
>> Mirror Gallery
>> 5
>> Artifact
>> The "legend rule" doesn't apply.
>
> If I were attempting to resolve this quandry... I'd revise Krark's Thumb
> as follows:
>
> ***************************
>
> (Revised) Krark's Thumb
> 2
> Artifact
>
> If you would flip a single coin, flip two instead and choose
> one to ignore once you have seen the results.
>
> ****************************
>
> So multiple Krark's may trigger, but they all result in a replacement of
> the original flip and don't apply if more than one coin is being flipped
> (i.e. after even one Krark's has already resolved.)

If you ask me, flipping 2 coins is the same as flipping a single coin
twice. At least drawing 2 cards is considered to be drawing 1 card
twice.

--
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel (61.340% quality rating):
>
> Some time ago, when Krark's Thumb first came out, I'd read on
> magicthegathering.com that they dealt with the possible confusion over
> having two Krark's Thumbs in play by making it Legendary.

They ruled on this a while back.

If you have 2 Thumbs, you get to flip 4 times and choose one. If you
have 3 Thumbs, you get to flip 8 times and choose one. And so on. Don't
bother trying to apply logic to the wording and ruling.

References:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mg159

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc24

/joe
--
29% of Americans believe that Elvis was right to shoot TV sets.