Can Cage of Hands be returned from the stack?

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
understanding it.

My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had. I
sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
protection from white. In response my opponent tapped two plains and
returned the Cage of Hands to his hand. We let that play stand but I'm
not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be. It's
just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?

TIA,
nelf

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

obscurebardo@gmail.com <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:

> This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
> understanding it.
>
> My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had. I
> sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
> protection from white. In response my opponent tapped two plains and
> returned the Cage of Hands to his hand. We let that play stand but I'm
> not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be. It's
> just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
> spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?
>
> TIA,
> nelf

402.8. Abilities function only while the permanent with the ability is
in play unless the ability is a characteristic-setting ability that sets
type or color, an ability of an instant or sorcery, an additional cost,
an alternative cost, or a play restriction. Abilities can also function
in other zones if they state otherwise or if the ability can only
trigger or be played in a zone other than the in-play zone. An ability
whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it's on out of a
particular zone functions only in that zone.
Example: An ability with a cost that includes "Discard this card" can be
played only if the card is in your hand.

I see no reason for that ability to function while its source is on the
stack.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

obscurebardo@gmail.com wrote:
> This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
> understanding it.
>
> My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had. I
> sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
> protection from white. In response my opponent tapped two plains and
> returned the Cage of Hands to his hand. We let that play stand but
I'm
> not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be.
It's
> just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
> spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?
>
> TIA,
> nelf

The spell needs a legal target to resolve. The ability can only be used
when Cage of Hands resolves. It changes from a "spell" to "Cage of
Hands" the "permanent" upon resolving. A spell that is cast at that
speed will fizzle if the target becomes illegal. This is unlike
abilities on the stack TTBOMK.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it obscurebardo@gmail.com? - just
said...
> This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
> understanding it.
>
> My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had. I
> sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
> protection from white. In response my opponent tapped two plains and
> returned the Cage of Hands to his hand. We let that play stand but I'm
> not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be. It's
> just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
> spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?

In general, permanents ONLY have their abilities while they're in play,
not in any other zone such as the hand, graveyard, library, or in this
case, the stack. A common example - a creature with Protection from Blue
*can* be countered by, say, Remove Soul.

This is no different. Unless the card specifically says otherwise, or
the ability doesn't make sense any other way, no ability can be played
from anywhere else, and I don't know of a single activated ability on
any of the 7000 or so cards in the game that can be played from the
stack.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hylander <john.gagon@gmail.com> sent:

> obscurebardo@gmail.com wrote:
>> This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
>> understanding it.
>>
>> My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had. I
>> sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
>> protection from white. In response my opponent tapped two plains and
>> returned the Cage of Hands to his hand. We let that play stand but
> I'm
>> not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be.
> It's
>> just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
>> spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?
>>
>> TIA,
>> nelf

Some points of clarification:

> The spell needs a legal target to resolve.

True, but not directly relevant. All targeted spells check their
targets on resolution, and are countered if all of their targets are
legal; also, a local enchantment spell (such as Cage of Hands), while
it's a spell on the stack, targets the permanent that it's intended
to enchant.

> The ability can only be used
> when Cage of Hands resolves. It changes from a "spell" to "Cage of
> Hands" the "permanent" upon resolving.

Yes, activated abilities are only playable when they're on a permanent
in play, unless otherwise stated or if they only make sense in a
different zone.

> A spell that is cast at that
> speed will fizzle if the target becomes illegal.

There's no such thing as speed.

There's no such thing as fizzle.

Any targeted spell that tries to resolve but has no legal targets will
be countered instead of resolving.

If the target of the Cage of Hands spell gains protection from white,
then that makes it an illegal target for Cage of Hands, as Cage of
Hands is a white spell.

But anyway, this is just the reason why the player playing the Cage
of Hands spell wants to play its activated ability to return it to
his or her hand. Which can't be done, as the ability can only be
used while the Cage of Hands is in play, and it's not yet in play.

> This is unlike
> abilities on the stack TTBOMK.

Any targeted ability that tries to resolve but has no legal targets
will be countered instead of resolving.

Spells and activated abilities are pretty much identical once they're
on the stack.

Hope it all makes sense,

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

obscurebardo@gmail.com <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:
>This came up in a game played today and I don't know how to go about
>understanding it.

Okay.

>My opponent played Cage of Hands targeting a creature I had.

Okay. Cage of Hands enchant-creature spell on the stack.

>I sacrificed a Benevolent Bodyguard to give the targeted creature
>protection from white.

In response. Okay - BB ability on the stack on top of the Cage spell.

>In response my opponent tapped two plains and
>returned the Cage of Hands to his hand.

Whoa. How did he do this, since the Cage IS NOT IN PLAY YET? Its ability
doesn't SAY it can work in any other zone of the game, and works just fine
from in-play, so it CAN'T work from any other zone. He can't return it to his
hand from: his library; his graveyard; his hand (duh); the removed-from-game
zone; the ante zone; the phased-out zone; and, the relevant one here, the
stack. He can only play (announce) that ability if the Cage is in play ...
and here, it's not only not in play, it can't GET into play until after
your BB's ability has resolved or otherwise been dealt with.

He can't return it to his hand from the stack.

>We let that play stand but I'm
>not sure that that is legal, but I don't know why it wouldn't be. It's
>just that I don't think I've seen activated abilities played when a
>spell is on the stack. Can anyone clarify this?

Yes: activated abilities can't be used while a spell is on the stack _unless
they specifically say they can_, or unless that's the ONLY zone they could
work from. I can't think off the top of my head of one that does... (Splice
and Offering are not -activated- abilities.)

There -are- activated abilities that can be used while a card's not in play,
but they'll either say so in their text, or be ONLY usable from that zone
(Cycling, for instance, requires you to discard the card it's on as part of
the activation cost, so can only be used while the card's in your hand).

Cage of Hands' ability doesn't have any special text on it, so can't be used
unless the Cage is in play enchanting some poor creature.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zoe Stephenson <zrs1@uk.ac.york.reversed> wrote:
>Any targeted ability that tries to resolve but has no legal targets
>will be countered instead of resolving.
>
>Spells and activated abilities are pretty much identical once they're
>on the stack.

The main difference is that a spell will -usually- have a card "under" it
on the stack, while an ability is just there by itself with no marker
representing it. But yes, once something's on the stack, it uses the same
rules about resolving as anything else on the stack; "speed" is NOT a concept
you want to try to use to explain spell&ability timing, in Magic.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 17 May 2005 08:25:26 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>This is no different. Unless the card specifically says otherwise, or
>the ability doesn't make sense any other way, no ability can be played
>from anywhere else, and I don't know of a single activated ability on
>any of the 7000 or so cards in the game that can be played from the stack.

I can't think of any either. There _are_ abilities which apply while on
the stack, but almost all of them are "This can't be countered". (The
exception I know of is Kaervek's Torch's "As long as ~ is on the stack, spells
that target it cost 2 more to play.".) And all of the ones I know of are
static abilities - I can't think of a triggered ability that works there
either.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 17 May 2005, David DeLaney wrote:

> On Tue, 17 May 2005 08:25:26 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>> This is no different. Unless the card specifically says otherwise, or
>> the ability doesn't make sense any other way, no ability can be played
>> from anywhere else, and I don't know of a single activated ability on
>> any of the 7000 or so cards in the game that can be played from the stack.
>
> I can't think of any either. There _are_ abilities which apply while on
> the stack, but almost all of them are "This can't be countered". (The
> exception I know of is Kaervek's Torch's "As long as ~ is on the stack, spells
> that target it cost 2 more to play.".) And all of the ones I know of are
> static abilities - I can't think of a triggered ability that works there
> either.

Would Storm count as a triggered ability that works from the stack?
Or would that be from the zone from where you played the spell?

--
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:

> Would Storm count as a triggered ability that works from the stack?
> Or would that be from the zone from where you played the spell?

502.30. Storm

502.30a Storm is a triggered ability that functions while the spell is
on the stack. "Storm" means "When you play this spell, put a copy of it
onto the stack for each other spell that was played before it this turn.
If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number
of the copies."

502.30b If a spell has multiple instances of storm, each triggers
separately.

I would say that it is a triggered ability that functions while the
spell is on the stack.

You can search the comprehensive rules for phrases like "static ability
that functions" to find keyword abilities that work on the stack.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>>I can't think of any either. There _are_ abilities which apply while on
>>the stack, but almost all of them are "This can't be countered". (The
>>exception I know of is Kaervek's Torch's "As long as ~ is on the stack, spells
>>that target it cost 2 more to play.".) And all of the ones I know of are
>>static abilities - I can't think of a triggered ability that works there
>>either.
>
>Would Storm count as a triggered ability that works from the stack?

Yes; yes, it would.

>Or would that be from the zone from where you played the spell?

Nope - the card goes on the stack as the first thing in announcing the spell,
and Storm triggers "when you play the spell", which currently is specifically
stated to happen as the -last- part of announcing it. So the card is nicely on
the stack when Storm triggers; thank you for the example.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.