Shoal and Gohei mana costs

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I was wondering what the interaction would be with X-cost arcane spells and
the Long-Forgotten Gohei.


Long-Forgotten Gohei
{3}
Artifact
Arcane spells you play cost {1} less to play.
Spirits you control get +1/+1.


For example, if I play Sickening Shoal with mana rather than the alternate
cost, and I tap four Plains using the mana to pay for the spell, is X 2 or is
it 3? Since the Gohei is lowering the cost for the spells, would its ability
also work with X-cost spells? Would I have to announce that fact to my
opponent as I pay the cost of the spell?

Also, how about when the alternate cost /is/ paid. Is there any interaction
there?

thank you,
K
when the Gohei is in play?

--
In vino veritas

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> writes:
> I was wondering what the interaction would be with X-cost arcane spells and
> the Long-Forgotten Gohei.
>
> Long-Forgotten Gohei
> {3}
> Artifact
> Arcane spells you play cost {1} less to play.
> Spirits you control get +1/+1.
>
> For example, if I play Sickening Shoal with mana rather than the alternate
> cost, and I tap four Plains

I think you mean Swamps here.

> using the mana to pay for the spell, is X 2 or is it 3? Since the
> Gohei is lowering the cost for the spells, would its ability also
> work with X-cost spells? Would I have to announce that fact to my
> opponent as I pay the cost of the spell?

You have it backwards. When playing a card, you first choose the
optional things (playing Kicker/Enwine/etc.), and choose the value of
X. So here, you probably want to choose X=3. You then figure out that
the cost is {3}{B}{B} - {1} = {2}{B}{B}, and you pay for that
{2}{B}{B} by playing the mana ability of 4 Swamps and using the mana
they generate.

> Also, how about when the alternate cost /is/ paid. Is there any interaction
> there?

If you choose the alternate cost, say with X=3 again, the cost is
Removing a black card with CMC 3 from your hand. The reduction of the
Gohei doesn't apply since there's no colorless mana in the cost.

--
Peter C.
"In a display of perverse brilliance, Carl the repairman mistakes a
room humidifier for a mid-range computer but manages to tie it into
the network anyway." -- The 5th Wave

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:

> I was wondering what the interaction would be with X-cost arcane spells and
> the Long-Forgotten Gohei.
>
>
> Long-Forgotten Gohei
> {3}
> Artifact
> Arcane spells you play cost {1} less to play.
> Spirits you control get +1/+1.
>
>
> For example, if I play Sickening Shoal with mana rather than the alternate
> cost, and I tap four Plains using the mana to pay for the spell, is X 2 or is
> it 3? Since the Gohei is lowering the cost for the spells, would its ability
> also work with X-cost spells? Would I have to announce that fact to my
> opponent as I pay the cost of the spell?
>
> Also, how about when the alternate cost /is/ paid. Is there any interaction
> there?

First, remember that a value for X is one of the first decisions you
declare when playing such a spell.

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you play Sickening Shoal.
(Note that Plains by themselves won't help much in play this.)

Sickening Shoal
XBB
Instant - Arcane
You may remove a black card with converted mana cost X in your hand from
the game rather than pay Sickening Shoal's mana cost.
Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn.

If the you choose X=3, it will spend the rest of its time on the stack
as if it read:

Sickening Shoal
3BB
Instant - Arcane
You may remove a black card with converted mana cost 3 in your hand from
the game rather than pay Sickening Shoal's mana cost.
Target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn.

If you choose the alternative cost, you would eventually need to remove
a black card with converted mana cost 3; Blessing of Leeches or Horobi's
Whisper would work. Note that there is no mana involved in this cost,
let alone generic mana, so Long-Forgotten Gohei won't touch this. Also
note that it says "rather than pay Sickening Shoal's mana cost", not
"rather than pay the generic portion of Sickening Shoal's mana cost";
that's one of the common questions about the Shoals.

Regardless of how you choose to pay the cost, you would have to choose a
target creature as normal. Then the time would come to deal with the
cost. If you haven't chosen to use the alternative cost, Long-Forgotten
Gohei can reduce this cost to 2BB as easily as it reduces the cost of
Dance of Shadows. A cost of 2BB can generally be met by tapping four
Swamps. As with any Arcane spell, you might have to point out the
reduction to your opponent at this time.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:
>I was wondering what the interaction would be with X-cost arcane spells and
>the Long-Forgotten Gohei.

Choose the size of X (409.1b); then figure out the total cost of the spell,
including additional costs and cost reductions (409.1f); then pay the cost
that you figured out.

>Long-Forgotten Gohei 3 Artifact
> Arcane spells you play cost 1 less to play. / Spirits you control get +1/+1.

In other words, you pick an X, then pay 1 less than the cost figured using
that X; you don't "pick a cost, then find out what X is based on that cost and
make X one larger".

>For example, if I play Sickening Shoal with mana rather than the alternate
>cost, and I tap four Plains using the mana to pay for the spell, is X 2 or is
>it 3?

See, you're doing it backwards here. What X did you -choose-? (Also, if you
manage to pay for a _Sickening_ Shoal with four white mana, there's GOT to
be some other card involved, because Sickening Shoal's mana cost is XBB, not
XWW. I'll assume you MEANT Shining Shoal here.)

From your example, if the cost -ends up- being 2WW, then X would have
originally been chosen as 3. If you had chosen X=2, the cost would end up being
1WW.

>Would I have to announce that fact to my
>opponent as I pay the cost of the spell?

Yes, in general. Presumably he can see the Gohei as well as you can, but you
do have to announce the choices you're making (such as targetting, mode, and
size of X) while announcing the spell.

>Also, how about when the alternate cost /is/ paid. Is there any interaction
>there?

Nope, not for the Gohei. If you use the alternate cost, that replaces the
entire mana cost, so you're not paying any mana to start with; reducing how
much the generic part of THAT cost would be by 1 doesn't do anything, because
there's no generic part to that alternate cost.

(If a Gloom were out, so that your Shining Shoal cost 3 extra to cast, then
the Gohei could reduce the total cost "remove an X-cmc cost white card in
your hand from the game, plus 3" to "remove an X-cmc cost white card in your
hand from the game, plus 2". But without some cost increaser involved, there's
nothing there in the alternate cost for the Gohei's reduction to reduce.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it Kevin? - just said...
>
> I was wondering what the interaction would be with X-cost arcane spells and
> the Long-Forgotten Gohei.
>
>
> Long-Forgotten Gohei
> {3}
> Artifact
> Arcane spells you play cost {1} less to play.
> Spirits you control get +1/+1.
>
>
> For example, if I play Sickening Shoal with mana rather than the alternate
> cost, and I tap four Plains using the mana to pay for the spell, is X 2 or is
> it 3? Since the Gohei is lowering the cost for the spells, would its ability
> also work with X-cost spells? Would I have to announce that fact to my
> opponent as I pay the cost of the spell?

X isn't determined by how much mana you pay, how much mana you pay is
determined (in part) by X. Say you want X to be 5. You would announce
that, *then* figure out the mana cost, in this case 4BB (XBB = 5BB, but
LFG lets you subtract one generic mana from this, for a total of 4BB).