Frostwielder's template "If ..." vs Exalted Angel's "Whene..

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Am I recalling this correctly? I think I've read that if Exalted Angel
is killed by combat damage it's controller doesn't gain life because it
leaves play?

What about the template for Frostwielder? This came up in a game today.
If Frostwielder is put in the graveyard from combat damage what about
the creature it damaged? Does it still go to the removed from game
zone? Or would it go to the graveyard? That is does the "If" clause
apply for the turn even if Frostwielder is no longer in play?

Thanks in advance. I appreciated all the help understanding how Cage of
Hands activated ability only works after it's in play.

nelf

 

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obscurebardo@gmail.com <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:
>Am I recalling this correctly? I think I've read that if Exalted Angel
>is killed by combat damage it's controller doesn't gain life because it
>leaves play?

Nnnno.

If it's killed by _first strike_ combat damage, before it ever deals its
combat damage at all, then sure - it has to be in play when its combat damage
gets DEALT, for the ability to trigger. Similarly, if something kills it
_in response to_ combat damage, that'll stop its ability from later
triggering.

But normally, barring first/double strike, all combat damage is dealt at the
exact same time - it's not 'attackers first' or anything like that. So if
the Angel is getting killed by its blocker, it's damaging its blocker at
the same time it gets the lethal damage; this triggers the Angel's ability.

_Then_ state-based effects are checked for, and the Angel goes to the
graveyard. Then the Angel's triggered ability goes onto the stack; it
triggered, and doesn't particularly care whether its source is still there.
Later, the Angel's triggered ability resolves, and gives you life equal to
the damage the Angel dealt... again, without caring whether the Angel is still
there NOW.

>What about the template for Frostwielder? This came up in a game today.

Okay, and careful here. Frostwielder has -two- abilities; the activated
1-damage one, and a static replacement ability. It does not have to be in
play for the 1 damage to get dealt; the activated ability's independent of
its source once it's on the stack. It DOES have to be in play to apply the
separate replacement effect from its static ability; it can't remove any
creature from the game if Frostwielder itself isn't in play.

>If Frostwielder is put in the graveyard from combat damage what about
>the creature it damaged? Does it still go to the removed from game
>zone? Or would it go to the graveyard? That is does the "If" clause
>apply for the turn even if Frostwielder is no longer in play?

Again, normally all combat damage is dealt simultaneously, then all creatures
that would be destroyed from that are destroyed simultaneously. So if
Frostwielder will die from combat damage AND a creature it's damaged will also
be dying, they both die at the same time ... and since replacement effects
get used just BEFORE what they would replace can happen, Frostwielder hasn't
yet left play at the time its "replace where this creature _would_ go when
it dies" effect would apply. So the creature gets removed from the game and
Frostwielder goes to the graveyard, simultaneously.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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obscurebardo@gmail.com <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:

> Am I recalling this correctly? I think I've read that if Exalted Angel
> is killed by combat damage it's controller doesn't gain life because it
> leaves play?
>
> What about the template for Frostwielder? This came up in a game today.
> If Frostwielder is put in the graveyard from combat damage what about
> the creature it damaged? Does it still go to the removed from game
> zone? Or would it go to the graveyard? That is does the "If" clause
> apply for the turn even if Frostwielder is no longer in play?

[summoning some brain and rules mojo to answer]

Let's say the Angel blocks a "vanilla" 5/5.
The combat damage step begins, and damage assignment goes on the stack.
Some time after this, the damage assignment resolves. Let's assume no
effects are meddling or changing or whatever and that both creatures are
still in play etc. etc. At the same time, creatures deal their damage to
each other. The Angel is still in play at the moment it's dealing
damage, and its ability WILL trigger. Right after the Combat Damage
pseudospell has finished resolving, the game checks for game state,
notices two creatures with lethal damage and destroys them. Then a
player would receive priority, but the ability goes on the stack instead
as per [404.2]. Then a player receives priority, assuming nothing else
happened.

Bottom line, you get the life gain.

Frostwielder -- hmmm, this is slightly harder as it isn't a triggered
ability, but a static ability with a replacement effect...
I can say for sure that you cannot apply the ability's effect "for the
turn" after the Frostwielder leaves play -- the Frostwielder must be in
play for the replacement effect to be applied.
For the FW dying due to combat damage and killing a creature at the same
time, I can't really say; I know that triggered abilities "see each
other" when multiple permanents leave play, but I don't know if the rule
also applies to replacement effects.

- ∞

--
I miei post non sbagliano. E' la realta' ad essere inesatta.

 

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l0ne <thethinker@email.it.is.not.invalid> wrote:
>For the FW dying due to combat damage and killing a creature at the same
>time, I can't really say; I know that triggered abilities "see each
>other" when multiple permanents leave play, but I don't know if the rule
>also applies to replacement effects.

Key here: replacement effects, as you noted a bit earlier, have to apply
_before_ the event they would replace. They can't apply afterwards, obviously
- the event would already have happened. And nobody's ever figured out a
_coherent_ and explainable way to have them apply "exactly while it's
happening" ... so "before" it is.

So: how do things look just _before_ Frostwielder and the other creature
are destroyed? ...That's right: they're both still in play. So F's replacement
effect from its static ability is "on", and can apply.

(Triggered abilities get the special rule because normally they look to see
if they trigger based on the state just AFTER something happened ... except
that doesn't work right for things that trigger off something leaving play, or
off something changing controllers.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.