O-Naginata's "limitation"

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Suppose I control O-Naginata and a random 1/1 creature.

O-Naginata (Saviours of Kamigawa uncommon)
1
Artifact -- Equipment
O-Naginata can be attached only to a creature with 3 or more power.
Equipped creature gets +3/+0 and has trample.
Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery.)

According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
all its first ability does.

But that means I can equip the 1/1 with the ON and have it stick,
without doing anything fancy. Unlike what would happen in analagous
situations with local enchantments, I can play the equip ability; the
1/1 is a perfectly legal target for it. So the ON attaches itself, then
SBEs are checked - and ON finds that the creature it's attached to is
now 4/1 and stays there quite happily until something like Oboro Envoy
comes along!

Where, if anywhere, does the above reasoning break down?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:15:37 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>Suppose I control O-Naginata and a random 1/1 creature.

You cannot attach the O-Naginata to that creature without somehow raising its
power to 3 or more by some OTHER effect.

If you manage to do this - say you Giant Growth the r1/1c, then put the O-
Naginata on it - the O-Naginata's bonus, once it's on the creature, will
of course count towards its power, which in general will let it stay on
the creature.

>O-Naginata 1 Artifact -- Equipment
> ~ can be attached only to a creature with 3 or more power. / Equipped
> creature gets +3/+0 and has trample. / Equip 2 (*)
>
>According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
>the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
>checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
>all its first ability does.

Right. It just says that in addition to the conditions for any Equipment to
be attached ("this must be a creature"), there's another one, "this must have
3 or more power").

>But that means I can equip the 1/1 with the ON and have it stick,
>without doing anything fancy.

No, you can't; a 1/1 is NOT LEGAL for the ON to attach to. A 4/4 is, but
it won't BE a 4/4 until after the ON is on it; and it can't attach itself to
an illegal creature, expecting to make the attachment legal -afterwards-.
It's quite true that you can play the Equip ability, and have it resolve
- the Equip ability's target specs are "target creature you control". But the
Equip ability -can't attach- the O-Naginata to the 1/1 creature in the first
place. It will resolve, and Do Nothing - the Equipment can't move onto
the creature because it can't be attached to it with its current power, so
it just sits there unattached and the Equip ability finishes resolving.

>Unlike what would happen in analagous
>situations with local enchantments, I can play the equip ability; the
>1/1 is a perfectly legal target for it.

Yes. You even get to resolve it, because it's STILL a legal target for it.
But: the Equip ability says to _move_ the Equipment onto the creature (and
212.2h also reminds you of this)... and "Move" in the Glossary tells you
you can't do this if it can't equip what you're trying to move it to. And
"can't equip" is the same as "can't be attached to", for Equipment (for
enchantments, "can't enchant" is the same as 'can't be attached to').

It's not whether the target is legal, in other words, or whether a state-based
effect would LATER remove it. It's whether it can become attached to the
target in the first place, which it can't.

>SBEs are checked - and ON finds that the creature it's attached to is
>now 4/1 and stays there quite happily until something like Oboro Envoy
>comes along!

Nope. _IF_ you manage, with the help of other cards, to get it onto the
formerly-1/1 (because you can't get it on there while it IS a 1/1), it will
become a 4/4 and the O-Naginata will say "Cool, I can +stay+ on here" each
time state-based effects check. But you can't get it on there by itself,
because it can't get moved onto / attached to / equipped to a 1/1 creature.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:

> Suppose I control O-Naginata and a random 1/1 creature.
>
> O-Naginata (Saviours of Kamigawa uncommon)
> 1
> Artifact -- Equipment
> O-Naginata can be attached only to a creature with 3 or more power.
> Equipped creature gets +3/+0 and has trample.
> Equip 2 (2: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
> sorcery.)
>
> According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
> the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
> checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
> all its first ability does.

The second ability has no FAQ text whatsoever. Does that justify an
assumption that the second ability does nothing?

> But that means I can equip the 1/1 with the ON and have it stick,
> without doing anything fancy. Unlike what would happen in analagous
> situations with local enchantments, I can play the equip ability; the
> 1/1 is a perfectly legal target for it. So the ON attaches itself, then
> SBEs are checked - and ON finds that the creature it's attached to is
> now 4/1 and stays there quite happily until something like Oboro Envoy
> comes along!
>
> Where, if anywhere, does the above reasoning break down?

An Equipment can't be moved onto a permanent it couldn't equip; if this
kind of move is attempted, the Equipment stays where it is.

Move
To move a local enchantment, Equipment, or a counter means to take it
from where it currently is and put it onto an object or player. If the
enchantment, Equipment, or counter no longer exists or the object it
will move onto is no longer in the correct zone when the effect would
move it, nothing happens. Similarly, an enchantment or Equipment can't
be moved onto a permanent it couldn't enchant or equip; if this kind of
move is attempted, the enchantment or Equipment stays where it is.
A moved enchantment stops enchanting the previous permanent and
starts enchanting the new one, and it receives a new timestamp. Nothing
else about the enchantment changes. The enchantment never left play, so
no comes-into-play or leaves-play triggered abilities will trigger. If
an ability of the moved enchantment affecting "enchanted [permanent]"
was on the stack when the enchantment moved, it will affect the new
enchanted permanent when it resolves, not the old one. The same is true
for moved Equipment.
The equip ability can move Equipment onto a creature or from one
creature to another.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
> (ME
> >According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
> >the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
> >checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
> >all its first ability does.
>
> Right.

Ummm... not according to the rest of your post, it's not. Your (and
Daniel's) response only works if this is NOT all it does; in addition to
checking this as an SBE, it has to *also* check it as abilities like
Equip are resolving, a moment before the ON would be moved.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:

> Ummm... not according to the rest of your post, it's not.

You have a point. The first ability does the following:

- it prevents the Equipment to become attached to a creature that
doesn't have enough power; and
- it checks every time SBEs are checked for the creature's power, and
unattaches the Equipment as a SBE if so.

- ∞

--
I miei post non sbagliano. E' la realta' ad essere inesatta.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
>> (ME
>> >According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
>> >the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
>> >checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
>> >all its first ability does.
>>
>> Right.
>
>Ummm... not according to the rest of your post, it's not. Your (and
>Daniel's) response only works if this is NOT all it does; in addition to
>checking this as an SBE, it has to *also* check it as abilities like
>Equip are resolving, a moment before the ON would be moved.

Oh, I see. My fault. Yes, "can't be attached / can't be enchanted by / can't be
equipped" gets checked by the relevant state-based effects (420.5d,k), _and_
gets checked any time something tries to move something already in play onto
the permanent ("Move", Glossary). It also gets checked if something not in play
tries to come into play attached to the permanent (212.4e), though that can
only matter for local enchantments, since we don't have anything (that I can
remember) that puts an Artifact - Equipment into play already attached to
something. Sorry for the confusion.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
> Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
> >One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
> >> (ME
> >> >According to the FAQ, and I quote, " O-Naginata becomes unattached if
> >> >the equipped creature's power is less than 3 as state-based effects are
> >> >checked." Since that's the entire FAQ text on the card, I assume that's
> >> >all its first ability does.
> >>
> >> Right.
> >
> >Ummm... not according to the rest of your post, it's not. Your (and
> >Daniel's) response only works if this is NOT all it does; in addition to
> >checking this as an SBE, it has to *also* check it as abilities like
> >Equip are resolving, a moment before the ON would be moved.
>
> Oh, I see. My fault. Yes, "can't be attached / can't be enchanted by / can't be
> equipped" gets checked by the relevant state-based effects (420.5d,k), _and_
> gets checked any time something tries to move something already in play onto
> the permanent ("Move", Glossary). It also gets checked if something not in play
> tries to come into play attached to the permanent (212.4e), though that can
> only matter for local enchantments, since we don't have anything (that I can
> remember) that puts an Artifact - Equipment into play already attached to
> something. Sorry for the confusion.


That's what I figured. (It was the glossary entry on Move that I was
overlooking, obviously.)