that many

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Hi,

When a card says "that many" it's usualy clear what number is ment.
But it could be ambiguous and I can't find a definition for it in the rules.

For example:

Sekki, Seasons' Guide
5GGG
Legendary Creature Spirit
0/0
Sekki, Seasons Guide comes into play with eight +1/+1 counters on it.
If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many
+1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature
tokens into play.
Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard to play.

The first "that many" clearly refers to the number of damage prevented.
But the second "that many" could refer the the same number as well as to
the number of counters removed (which could be different).
The Faq is clear on it but I would like to be able to be sure from the
card's text and the Comprehensive Rules.

Any thoughts?

--
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.56.0506041432540.19308@fluit.few.vu.nl...
> Hi,
>
> When a card says "that many" it's usualy clear what number is ment.
> But it could be ambiguous and I can't find a definition for it in the
> rules.
>
> For example:
>
> Sekki, Seasons' Guide
> 5GGG
> Legendary Creature Spirit
> 0/0
> Sekki, Seasons Guide comes into play with eight +1/+1 counters on it.
> If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many
> +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature
> tokens into play.
> Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard to play.
>
> The first "that many" clearly refers to the number of damage prevented.
> But the second "that many" could refer the the same number as well as to
> the number of counters removed (which could be different).
> The Faq is clear on it but I would like to be able to be sure from the
> card's text and the Comprehensive Rules.
>
> Any thoughts?

I understand the confusion, although to me it looks fairly straightforward.
There aren't many cards that use 'that many' more than once, and this is one
of those exceptions. What you might want to think of 'that many' as meaning
is something like 'the same number of'. Then you'd have:

<edited>
> Sekki, Seasons Guide comes into play with eight +1/+1 counters on it.
> If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many
> +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put THE SAME NUMBER OF 1/1 colorless Spirit
> creature
> tokens into play.
> Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard to play.

Just a thought.

Erich

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>When a card says "that many" it's usualy clear what number is ment.
>But it could be ambiguous and I can't find a definition for it in the rules.

It's an extension of "that creature", "the attacking creature", etc.; it
should refer back to the last number mentioned in the ability's text.

>For example:
>
>Sekki, Seasons' Guide 5GGG Legendary Creature Spirit
>0/0 Sekki, Seasons Guide comes into play with eight +1/+1 counters on it.
>If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many
>+1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature
>tokens into play. / Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard
>to play.
>
>The first "that many" clearly refers to the number of damage prevented.
>But the second "that many" could refer the the same number as well as to
>the number of counters removed (which could be different).

It's referring back to the same thing as the first "that many", just as though
you had clauses that said 'that artifact' and 'that artifact', or "the
attacking creature" and "the attacking creature". They could have worded it
using an X, but that would be slightly longer and, to their way of thinking,
slightly more likely to confuse people _because_ it uses an X: "If damage would
be dealt to Sekki, prevent it, remove X +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put X
1/1 Spirit creature tokens into play, where X is the amount of prevented
damage.". (Note that the 'colorless' is essentially reminder text.)

>The Faq is clear on it but I would like to be able to be sure from the
>card's text and the Comprehensive Rules.

I see what you mean; unfortunately, in places we're still using the rules
of English, and/or haven't defined how something works in the rulebook
differently than it might in English. "The"/"that"/"this"/"those"/"these"
are one such place...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>I understand the confusion, although to me it looks fairly straightforward.
>There aren't many cards that use 'that many' more than once, and this is one
>of those exceptions.

In fact, the others that do are Lich and Nefarious Lich, which use it in two
different abilities (so they aren't tied together), Nantuko Cultivator, which
doesn't look like it's misinterpretable, and Whirlpool Drake / Warrior, which
again use it in two different abilities.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.