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Giving protection and the stack

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Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:32:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Playing some casual last night and I realised protection ain't all it's
cracked up to be. I cast a Knight of Dawn against a whole mess of Goblins
(who can't attack me yet because I have 3 Ghostly Prison in play. I pay 2
to give it protection from Red until end of turn but while that's on the
stack it gets burned for 2 red, so I have to pay another 2 to give it
protection from Red, another Goblin burns it for 2, etc. I run out of mana
before opponent runs out of Gobbos to fling at it so it dies.

Assuming this is how protection works on the stack it leads me to this
question:

How early in my opponent's turn can I give my creature protection in this or
any other way. Specifically I thought doing it BEFORE their untap phase
completes might work.

Example:

I have a Moonlit Strider and a Shirei, Shizo's Caretake in play. My
opponent is playing predominantly red and is tapped out. So... what if I
sacrifice Moonlit Strider during his untap phase but BEFORE he untaps any
permanents - can I do that? That way he can't burn it in response and
because the stack will resolve before he has a chance to burn it then it
will be safe for the turn?

It's a difficult question to type out so I hope I've explained it clearly.
Any help/clarification appreciated.

Thanks
Liam.
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:32:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"MonoJoker" <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote in message
news:Eqpqe.12484$F7.4395@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Playing some casual last night and I realised protection ain't all it's
> cracked up to be. I cast a Knight of Dawn against a whole mess of Goblins
> (who can't attack me yet because I have 3 Ghostly Prison in play. I pay 2
> to give it protection from Red until end of turn but while that's on the
> stack it gets burned for 2 red, so I have to pay another 2 to give it
> protection from Red, another Goblin burns it for 2, etc. I run out of
> mana
> before opponent runs out of Gobbos to fling at it so it dies.
>
> Assuming this is how protection works on the stack it leads me to this
> question:
>
> How early in my opponent's turn can I give my creature protection in this
> or
> any other way. Specifically I thought doing it BEFORE their untap phase
> completes might work.

Last I remember, you can't play spells or abilities on ANYONE's Untap Step;
abilities that trigger on Untap actually wait until the Upkeep Step to be
handled. So the earliest on any turn you could play the ability would be at
the start of your opponent's upkeep, after automatic triggers ('At the
beginning of your upkeep, you may..') have hit the stack.

However, from what I recall - and we're looking at corner cases here - I
believe there is a way to have something happen during the UNTAP step that
involves triggered abilities or the like, so there *might* be a way. I think
it involved Reya Dawnbringer. But in more than 99.9999% of cases, you won't
be able to anything until Upkeep.

> Example:
>
> I have a Moonlit Strider and a Shirei, Shizo's Caretake in play. My
> opponent is playing predominantly red and is tapped out. So... what if I
> sacrifice Moonlit Strider during his untap phase but BEFORE he untaps any
> permanents - can I do that? That way he can't burn it in response and
> because the stack will resolve before he has a chance to burn it then it
> will be safe for the turn?

Sorry, can't be done. Your best bet would be to have something out that
limits what he can untap, such as Winter Orb. The Untap Step is, for the
most part, uninterruptible ( which under 6E+ rules I believe is
uninstantable? :)  ). No can do.

Erich
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:32:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:

> How early in my opponent's turn can I give my creature protection in this or
> any other way. Specifically I thought doing it BEFORE their untap phase
> completes might work.

There is no "BEFORE" the untap step. The first chance to play anything
is the upkeep step.

300.1. A turn consists of five phases, in this order: beginning,
precombat main, combat, postcombat main, and end. Each of these phases
takes place every turn, even if nothing happens during the phase. The
beginning, combat, and end phases are further broken down into steps,
which proceed in order.

301. Beginning Phase

301.1. The beginning phase consists of three steps, in this order:
untap, upkeep, and draw.

302.3. No player receives priority during the untap step, so no spells
or abilities can be played or resolved. Any ability that triggers during
this step will be held until the next time a player would receive
priority, which is usually during the upkeep step. (See rule 303,
"Upkeep Step.")
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Related resources
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:32:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:

> However, from what I recall - and we're looking at corner cases here - I
> believe there is a way to have something happen during the UNTAP step that
> involves triggered abilities or the like, so there *might* be a way. I think
> it involved Reya Dawnbringer. But in more than 99.9999% of cases, you won't
> be able to anything until Upkeep.

Reya Dawnbringer
6WWW
Legendary Creature - Angel
4/6
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may return target creature card
from your graveyard to play.

Most "as long as ~this~ is tapped" effects can easily be made to end in
the untap step. It is also possible to gain control (well, REgain
control) of something during your untap step. But any triggers or
state-based effects resulting from those will still wait until the
upkeep step.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:32:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:

> Most "as long as ~this~ is tapped" effects

Or even "... remains tapped"
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 10:29:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:32:52 GMT, MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
>Playing some casual last night and I realised protection ain't all it's
>cracked up to be. I cast a Knight of Dawn against a whole mess of Goblins
>(who can't attack me yet because I have 3 Ghostly Prison in play. I pay 2
>to give it protection from Red until end of turn but while that's on the
>stack it gets burned for 2 red, so I have to pay another 2 to give it
>protection from Red, another Goblin burns it for 2, etc. I run out of mana
>before opponent runs out of Gobbos to fling at it so it dies.

Okay.

>Assuming this is how protection works on the stack

This sounds correct: Knight of Dawn has an activated ability "WW: ~ gains
protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.". While that
ABILITY is on the stack (you never have "protection on the stack", you only
have spells, abilities, or combat damage assignments there), it hasn't
resolved yet; if it hasn't resolved, it hasn't had its effect yet; and if it
hasn't had its effect happen yet, the Knight does not yet HAVE the protection
from the chosen color (and you haven't chosen the color, either - I note you
said you did this "to give it protection from Red", but you don't pick the
color, even, until the ability resolves).

And if it doesn't have protection from Red, it's a perfectly legal target
for an ability that says, for example, "Sacrifice a Goblin: Blah deals 2 damage
to target creature" from a red Blah.

>it leads me to this question:
>
>How early in my opponent's turn can I give my creature protection in this or
>any other way. Specifically I thought doing it BEFORE their untap phase
>completes might work.

Nope. The earliest you can do anything in ANY turn is during upkeep. There is
NEVER a time in any turn, step, or phase when you can play a spell but opponent
cannot respond; any time one player can add a spell or activated ability to
the stack, the other player is allowed to respond (as is the first player).
You're not allowed to do them at the same TIME - only whoever has priority
can add something to the stack - but both players will get priority before
whatever is on top of the stack can resolve.

>I have a Moonlit Strider and a Shirei, Shizo's Caretake in play. My
>opponent is playing predominantly red and is tapped out. So... what if I
>sacrifice Moonlit Strider during his untap phase but BEFORE he untaps any
>permanents - can I do that?

Nope. Nobody - no player - gets priority at ALL during untap step (not phase;
untap hasn't been a "phase" since before 6th Edition rules). No spells are
legal to cast then; no activated abilities are legal to play then. (Only
exception would be if something happening then asked for a mana payment, in
which case _mana_ abilities would be legal. However, I think they've moved all
such things to upkeep at the very earliest.)

You can't ever "do something and have it resolve off the stack without opponent
being able to interfere", regardless of when you're doing it; the stack doesn't
work that way. And you can't ever cast a spell or use an ability BEFORE upkeep
step, in a turn. (Some cards specifically have you make choices during untap
step, and phasing has things phase in and out then; those aren't spells being
cast or activated abilities being used.)

> That way he can't burn it in response and
>because the stack will resolve before he has a chance to burn it then it
>will be safe for the turn?

Nothing can resolve off the stack without BOTH players passing in succesion.
Ever. And if a player can pass, that player has priority... and a player with
priority can cast an Instant spell, or use an activated ability. So no, you
can't ever "unilaterally resolve the stack" without letting opponent do
anything.

>It's a difficult question to type out so I hope I've explained it clearly.

I believe I've understood what you're trying to do; unfortunately for you,
the rules of Magic are constructed to explicitly forbid it...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 10:32:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>Last I remember, you can't play spells or abilities on ANYONE's Untap Step;
>abilities that trigger on Untap actually wait until the Upkeep Step to be
>handled. So the earliest on any turn you could play the ability would be at
>the start of your opponent's upkeep, after automatic triggers ('At the
>beginning of your upkeep, you may..') have hit the stack.

Right.

>However, from what I recall - and we're looking at corner cases here - I
>believe there is a way to have something happen during the UNTAP step that
>involves triggered abilities or the like, so there *might* be a way. I think
>it involved Reya Dawnbringer.

If it did, the triggered ability would? Wait until upkeep step to go onto the
stack.

If for some reason something occurring during untap step asked for a mana
payment, then you could use _mana_ abilities, only. But I cannot currently
think of anything left that does this. (You may be remembering the "<random
Pro Tour player> breaks the untap step!" posts from, I think, 5th Edition...
when using a City of Brass caused a _damage-prevention step_, in which several
things could be done, including a Mana Drain. These can't be done at such a
time these days...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 3:27:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrndampvp.9r1.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>>Last I remember, you can't play spells or abilities on ANYONE's Untap
>>Step;
>>abilities that trigger on Untap actually wait until the Upkeep Step to be
>>handled. So the earliest on any turn you could play the ability would be
>>at
>>the start of your opponent's upkeep, after automatic triggers ('At the
>>beginning of your upkeep, you may..') have hit the stack.
>
> Right.
>
>>However, from what I recall - and we're looking at corner cases here - I
>>believe there is a way to have something happen during the UNTAP step that
>>involves triggered abilities or the like, so there *might* be a way. I
>>think
>>it involved Reya Dawnbringer.
>
> If it did, the triggered ability would? Wait until upkeep step to go onto
> the
> stack.
>
> If for some reason something occurring during untap step asked for a mana
> payment, then you could use _mana_ abilities, only. But I cannot currently
> think of anything left that does this. (You may be remembering the
> "<random
> Pro Tour player> breaks the untap step!" posts from, I think, 5th
> Edition...
> when using a City of Brass caused a _damage-prevention step_, in which
> several
> things could be done, including a Mana Drain. These can't be done at such
> a
> time these days...)

I doubt it.. I believe I started joining these NG's under 7E rules, and you
and Laurie Cheers and a few others were always coming up with Odd Puzzles
with fun lil corner cases.. I think one had Reya returning herself to play,
and I seem to remember some of the stuff had to happen during the Untap
Step. I'll have to find the post somewhere, probably via Google or something
similar.

Erich
!