Fork Goblin Grenade

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Playing in a 1.5 tournament the other night and my opponent has one Goblin
in play - I'm on 9 life. He casts a Goblin Grenade to deal 5 damage to me,
sacrificing the only Goblin he has in play to do so. Then he casts Fork and
claims he doesn't have to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin as he's only copying the
spell that's already been cast.

I maintain that he has to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin or the Fork fizzles as
there is no Goblin to sacrifice to the 2nd instance of the spell.

Am I right or is my opponent correct?

Thanks
Liam.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"MonoJoker" <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote in message
news:fBpqe.12497$F7.824@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Playing in a 1.5 tournament the other night and my opponent has one Goblin
> in play - I'm on 9 life. He casts a Goblin Grenade to deal 5 damage to
> me,
> sacrificing the only Goblin he has in play to do so. Then he casts Fork
> and
> claims he doesn't have to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin as he's only copying the
> spell that's already been cast.
>
> I maintain that he has to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin or the Fork fizzles as
> there is no Goblin to sacrifice to the 2nd instance of the spell.
>
> Am I right or is my opponent correct?
>
> Thanks
> Liam.

*Summoning the mighty power of the Oracle..*

Goblin Grenade
R
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Goblin Grenade, sacrifice a Goblin.
Goblin Grenade deals 5 damage to target creature or player.

The Goblin sacrifice is part of the cost of playing Goblin Grenade. If you
had to sacrifice an additional Goblin, you'd also have to pay an additional
R on top of the cost of the Fork to be able to use it. It might help a
little to think of it if it was an ability:

Pseudo-Goblin Grenade
R, Sacrifice a Goblin: Pseudo-Goblin Grenade deals 5 damage to target
creature or player. Play this ability only any time you could play a
sorcery.

You can't split the R and the sacrificing parts of the costs; it's all done
at once. Fork copies the spell; you pay RR instead of whatever cost was
involved before. Sorry Liam; your opponent wins on this one.

Erich

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:

> Playing in a 1.5 tournament the other night and my opponent has one Goblin
> in play - I'm on 9 life. He casts a Goblin Grenade to deal 5 damage to me,
> sacrificing the only Goblin he has in play to do so. Then he casts Fork and
> claims he doesn't have to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin as he's only copying the
> spell that's already been cast.
>
> I maintain that he has to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin or the Fork fizzles as
> there is no Goblin to sacrifice to the 2nd instance of the spell.
>
> Am I right or is my opponent correct?
>
> Thanks
> Liam.

Your opponent is correct. The cost of a Goblin Grenade, including the
additional cost of sacrificing a Goblin, is paid when you PLAY the
spell. A copy of a spell isn't "played."

Fizzle (Informal)
The term "fizzle" is an informal term, used when a spell or ability was
countered as a result of all its targets being missing or illegal when
it resolved. See rule 413.2a.

503.10. To copy a spell means to put a copy of the spell onto the stack;
a copy of a spell isn't "played." In addition to copying the
characteristics of the spell, all decisions made when the spell was
played are copied. These include mode, targets, the value of X, and
optional additional costs such as buyback. (See rule 409, "Playing
Spells and Activated Abilities.") Choices that are normally made on
resolution are not copied. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, but it
has no spell card associated with it. It works just like a normal spell:
it can be countered or it can resolve, and it uses the same timing rules
as normal spells.
Example: A player plays Fork, targeting an Emerald Charm. Fork reads,
"Put a copy of target instant or sorcery spell onto the stack, except
that it copies Fork's color and you may choose new targets for the
copy." Emerald Charm reads, "Choose one -- Untap target permanent; or
destroy target global enchantment; or target creature loses flying until
end of turn." When the Fork resolves, it puts a copy of the Emerald
Charm on the stack. The copy has the same mode that was chosen for the
original Emerald Charm. It does not necessarily have the same target,
but only because Fork allows choosing of new targets.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

MonoJoker <monojoker@bigjobbies.com.au> wrote:
>Playing in a 1.5 tournament the other night and my opponent has one Goblin
>in play - I'm on 9 life. He casts a Goblin Grenade to deal 5 damage to me,
>sacrificing the only Goblin he has in play to do so. Then he casts Fork and
>claims he doesn't have to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin as he's only copying the
>spell that's already been cast.

He is correct. Fork makes a copy of the spell and puts it on the stack; it
does NOT make a copy and make you PLAY the copy, forcing you to go through
announcement again. It makes the copy "already announced", with all the
stuff done on announcement already done (except that it lets you, if you want
to, change the target(s), and usually has a different color); you do not, and
CANNOT, pay any costs, or additional costs, or alternate costs, of the copy
of the spell. All you pay is the RR for the Fork itself.

>I maintain that he has to sacrifice a 2nd Goblin or the Fork fizzles as
>there is no Goblin to sacrifice to the 2nd instance of the spell.

Nope. The Fork is not an Isochron Scepter; it does not make a copy of a card,
then tell you to play the copy. It makes a copy of the spell, already-
announced, and plops it down onto the stack. You do not ... and CANNOT even
if you want to ... sacrifice another Goblin to the copy the Fork makes of the
Goblin Grenade.

>Am I right or is my opponent correct?

He's correct, alas.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.