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Anonymous
July 1, 2005 9:19:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

[BACKGROUND]
I am a complete MtG newbie. My background is more with Euro / German
games (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/top10.htm etc). I did a trade
recently with someone who made me three 'balanced' MtG decks (plus a
few spares) to have a play with and see what I think.

Most of the cards are from 3rd or 4th edition (according to the guy who
made the decks). I was provided with an older rule book (3rd or 4th
edition), but I have found the newer ones and the FAQs online, which
have resolved most of my questions. I have looked up many of the cards
on Gatherer too.

Note that I am yet to actually play. I want to be fairly confident with
the rules before playing (I am like this with any game). I won't be
playing in tournaments etc - mainly with my wife (who doesn't know MtG
either).

Apologies if many of these are newbie questions. I have read the rules
many times, and no doubt many of the below questions are covered.
Apologies in advance for that.

[MY QUESTIONS]
POWER SINK:
* Can Counterspell counter Power Sink (I think yes)? If so, does the
caster of Power Sink still need to pay X + water (I think yes)?
* When Power Sink is played, does the opponent have to pay mana or tap
lands straight away, or later if and when the card is resolved (I think
when its resolved)?

COUNTERSPELL:
* Can Counterspell counter Summon Creature (I think yes)?

REVEKA, WIZARD SAVANT:
* Is Reveka a 'phasing' creature (I think no)?

DARK MAZE:
* Oracle states: 'Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't
have defender.' The card is missing the 'as though' etc bit. What does
that extra bit mean?

ENERGY FLUX:
* Does this card affect both players (I think yes)?

BLACK WARD:
* If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
would it already need to be in play?

CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK
* If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black to
stop it? Or would it already need to be in play?

GABRIEL ANGELFIRE:
* What does the '3' mean in the text of the card? Do I have to pay it
in upkeep (if so, what happens if I don't)?

FYNDHORN BOW:
* What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I have
to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?

DRAIN LIFE:
* Are the extra black mana (to inflict damage) spent when the spell is
played or when its resolved? If when its played, if something goes on
the stack that destroy the target of Drain Life, does the caster of
Drain Life still gain the extra lives (or only if the target was alive
when Drain Life was resolved)?

STONE GIANT:
* Could Stone Giant make itself fly if it had its toughness reduced to
2 (by a spell etc)?

ONYX TALISMAN:
* Can the black spell be cast by either player? Why would I think to
use this artifact anyway?

TOR WAUKI:
* How could Tor deal 2 damage to target blocking creature? If Tor was
in the battle, wouldn't he be tapped already (so wouldn't be able to be
tapped to use his special ability)?

Thanks for your time

More about : questions newbie

Anonymous
July 1, 2005 1:22:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news:1120220375.595823.144040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> rambled:
>
> [BACKGROUND]
> I am a complete MtG newbie. My background is more with Euro / German
> games (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/top10.htm etc). I did a trade
> recently with someone who made me three 'balanced' MtG decks (plus a
> few spares) to have a play with and see what I think.
>
> Most of the cards are from 3rd or 4th edition (according to the guy
> who made the decks). I was provided with an older rule book (3rd or
> 4th edition), but I have found the newer ones and the FAQs online,
> which have resolved most of my questions. I have looked up many of
> the cards on Gatherer too.
>
> Note that I am yet to actually play. I want to be fairly confident
> with the rules before playing (I am like this with any game). I won't
> be playing in tournaments etc - mainly with my wife (who doesn't know
> MtG either).
>
> Apologies if many of these are newbie questions. I have read the rules
> many times, and no doubt many of the below questions are covered.
> Apologies in advance for that.

Welcome to the game. It's hooked millions of people over the years - it's
highly addictive. In fact, it has hooked me twice. :) 

> [MY QUESTIONS]

I'll do my best to answer, but I'm not a judge, just a regular player who's
fairly good with the rules.

> POWER SINK:

//Card Text
Power Sink
XU
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X. If he or she doesn't,
that player taps all lands he or she controls and empties his or her mana
pool.

> * Can Counterspell counter Power Sink (I think yes)?

Sure can. Counterspell can target any spell that is on the stack (except
itself. No spell can target itself.)
> If so, does the caster of Power Sink still need to pay X + water (I think
yes)?

First, "water" is blue mana. And yes, the player who cast Power Sink will
have to pay any and all costs to play it. These costs include paying X
colorless mana and one blue mana (denoted by "U" above).

> * When Power Sink is played, does the opponent have to pay mana or tap
> lands straight away, or later if and when the card is resolved (I
> think when its resolved)?

Only when the spell resolves. If, in your example above, Counterspell is
played targetting the Power Sink, then Power Sink will have no effect, and
no mana has to be paid.

> COUNTERSPELL:

//Card Text
Counterspell
UU
Instant
Counter target spell.

> * Can Counterspell counter Summon Creature (I think yes)?

Yes. A "Summon Creature", which has been errated on all cards to "Creature -
<Creature Type(s)>" is still a spell while it is on the stack. (That is,
before it comes into play.) Counterspell can counter any spell on the stack.

> REVEKA, WIZARD SAVANT:

//Card Text
Reveka, Wizard Savant
2UU
Legendary Creature
0/1
T: Reveka, Wizard Savant deals 2 damage to target creature or player and
doesn't untap during your next untap step.

> * Is Reveka a 'phasing' creature (I think no)?

No. Permanents with phasing will say right on the card that it has phasing.
(Unless some other effect in the game gives it phasing, of course.)

> DARK MAZE:

//Card Text
Dark Maze
4U
Creature - Wall
4/5
Defender (This creature can't attack.)
0: Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't have defender. Remove
it from the game at end of turn.

> * Oracle states: 'Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't> have
defender.' The card is missing the 'as though' etc bit. What does> that
extra bit mean?

Well, firstly, congratulations (and thank you!) for finding the Oracle. This
is extremely important when playing, because many cards needed much stricter
wording than they had when they were originally printed.

The "as though" part means that the creature still has the Defender ability,
but it can attack this turn, as if it didn't. This is in case you tried to
attack with it, and your opponent had a card that said, for example "Destroy
target creature with Defender." This card would still work, because your
Dark Maze still has defender, but the ability suspended the "this creature
can't attack" part of the Defender ability. I hope that made sense. "As
though" doesn't make sense to many players, so don't worry if you don't
catch on to that right away.

> > ENERGY FLUX:

//Card Text
Energy Flux
2U
Enchantment
All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this artifact
unless you pay 2."

> * Does this card affect both players (I think yes)?

Well, this card doesn't affect players, it gives every artifact the above
ability. And yes, it gives it to *every* artifact, not just the ones your
opponent controls. So don't play this if you have a board full of artifacts.

> > BLACK WARD:

//Card Text
Black Ward
W
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature has protection from black. This effect doesn't remove
Black Ward.

> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
> would it already need to be in play?

Well, Black Ward can't be played as an instant. This means that you can only
play this when the stack is empty (and you have priority, but that's more
advanced - don't worry too much about priority quite yet), and on your turn.
So, if someone plays Terror on your white creature, you can't play Black
Ward in response. Black Ward would have to be in play enchanting a creature
for that creature to have Pro: Black.

> > CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK

//Card Text
Circle of Protection: Black
1W
Enchantment
1: The next time a black source of your choice would deal damage to you this
turn, prevent that damage.

> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black
> to stop it? Or would it already need to be in play?

For the same reasons as with Black Ward, the COP: Black would have to be in
play for you to get any effect out of it.

> > GABRIEL ANGELFIRE:

//Card Text
Gabriel Angelfire
3GGWW
Legendary Creature
4/4
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose flying, first strike, trample, or
rampage 3. Gabriel Angelfire gains that ability until your next upkeep.

> * What does the '3' mean in the text of the card? Do I have to pay it
> in upkeep (if so, what happens if I don't)?

The "3" is part of "rampage 3". Rampage X is an older ability that Wizards
doesn't use anymore. It's still supported by the rules, but it doesn't
appear on any new cards (well, one card in Unhinged, a non-tournament legal
set.)

Rampage 3 means "When this creature becomes blocked, it gets +3/+3 until end
of turn for each creature blocking it beyond the first." So, if 3 creatures
block Gabriel Angelfire (and he has Rampage 3), he'll get +6/+6 until end of
turn. Similarly, Rampage 4 gives a +4/+4 bonus, and so on.

> > FYNDHORN BOW:

//Card Text
Fyndhorn Bow
2
Artifact
3, T: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.

> * What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I
> have to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?

It means 3 mana *and* tap it. To play an activated ability, you must pay
*all* costs that come before the colon. In this case, it is paying 3 mana
and tapping Fyndhorn Bow. For COP: Black, it's just paying 1W each time you
use it.

> > DRAIN LIFE:

//Card Text
Drain Life
X1B
Sorcery
Spend only black mana on X.
Drain Life deals X damage to target creature or player. You gain life equal
to the damage dealt, but not more life than the player's life total before
Drain Life dealt damage or the creature's toughness.

> * Are the extra black mana (to inflict damage) spent when the spell is
> played or when its resolved? If when its played, if something goes on
> the stack that destroy the target of Drain Life, does the caster of
> Drain Life still gain the extra lives (or only if the target was
> alive when Drain Life was resolved)?

This is a tricky one. Drain Life has been through multiple incarnations in
its lifetime. The latest is the Oracle Text above. You have to pay any and
all costs, which in this case involves just paying X1B, before this spell
can have any effect.

I believe that in your second question, where the target is destroyed before
Drain Life resolves, that no, you will not gain life. This is because the
one and only target of the spell (the creature it targetted) is not there
when Drain Life tries to resolve. In the old days, the spell would "fizzle",
but now it's Countered on Resolution. Basically, if a spell has no legal
targets, it doesn't work.

> > STONE GIANT:

//Card Text
Stone Giant
2RR
Creature - Giant
3/4
T: Target creature you control with toughness less than Stone Giant's power
gains flying until end of turn. At end of turn, destroy that creature.

> * Could Stone Giant make itself fly if it had its toughness reduced to
> 2 (by a spell etc)?

Sure. It doesn't say that the target creature has to be a creature other
than Stone Giant. If you could give Stone Giant -0/-2, then you could target
itself with its ability. It may not do you much good, since you have to tap
it to activate it, but it can be done.

> > ONYX TALISMAN:

//Card Text
Onyx Talisman
2
Artifact
Whenever a black spell is played, you may pay 3. If you do, untap target
permanent.

> * Can the black spell be cast by either player? Why would I think to
> use this artifact anyway?

Yes, this trigges whenever a black spell is played, regardless of who played
it. Why would you use it? Hmmm, good question. There are some really
powerful effects in the game that require tapping a permanent that you may
want to use twice. Untapping a permanent by paying 3 usually isn't a good
deal, but there are some permanents that love to be untapped. (Tolarian
Academy, for instance.)

> > TOR WAUKI:

//Card Text
Tor Wauki
2BBR
Legendary Creature
3/3
T: Tor Wauki deals 2 damage to target attacking or blocking creature.

> * How could Tor deal 2 damage to target blocking creature? If Tor was
> in the battle, wouldn't he be tapped already (so wouldn't be able to
> be tapped to use his special ability)?

If Tor was an attacker, then yes, he'd be tapped, thus unable to use this
ability. However, this ability will work even if Tor isn't involved in
combat. He only has to target a creature that is.

Here's an example:
Your opponent attacks you with a 5/5 creature, and you block with a 3/5
creature. Combat damage is assigned and put on the stack. Your opponent will
get a chance to play something, then you will. When your chance comes, you
can tap Tor Wauki to do 2 damage to his attacking 5/5. This will resolve
before combat damage (because it's on top of it on the stack), and your
opponents' creature will take 2 damage. When combat damage resolves, your
3/5 will deal 3 to his attacker (killing it, because it now has 5 damage on
it), and your opponent's creature will deal 5 to your 3/5 (killing it also).

> > Thanks for your time

Welcome. Enjoy!

--
KB
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 3:50:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news:D a3g0j$ac3$1@domitilla.aioe.org,
Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> rambled:
>
> //Card Text

Duh, whenever I wrote "Card Text", I meant Oracle Text. In some cases, the
actual Card Text differs greatly from the current Oracle Text. Sorry if I
confused you.

--
KB
Related resources
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:40:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:
>I am a complete MtG newbie.

Cool.

>I did a trade
>recently with someone who made me three 'balanced' MtG decks (plus a
>few spares) to have a play with and see what I think.

Also cool.

>Most of the cards are from 3rd or 4th edition (according to the guy who
>made the decks). I was provided with an older rule book (3rd or 4th
>edition), but I have found the newer ones and the FAQs online, which
>have resolved most of my questions. I have looked up many of the cards
>on Gatherer too.

Okay, good. Some of them may have different wordings now; that's what Oracle,
which Gatherer is the searchable interface for, is for, to keep players up-to-
date. Glad you have found the current rulebook; hope it didn't cause too
much confusion reconciling it with how you first learned.

>Note that I am yet to actually play. I want to be fairly confident with
>the rules before playing (I am like this with any game).

(Oh this sounds so familiar...)

>Apologies if many of these are newbie questions. I have read the rules
>many times, and no doubt many of the below questions are covered.
>Apologies in advance for that.

No problem; answering the basic questions helps keep one in touch with the
basics, after all.

>[MY QUESTIONS]
>POWER SINK:
>* Can Counterspell counter Power Sink (I think yes)?

Yes; Power Sink is a spell, and Counterspell can target, and counter, it.
(It's an Instant spell these days, as is Counterspell.) To be uncounterable
the spell text would have to say "~ can't be countered". (Compare Blurred
Mongoose, Boseiju,_Who Shelter's All's ability, Gaea's Herald's ability,
Isao,_Enlightened Bushi, etc.)

>If so, does the
>caster of Power Sink still need to pay X + water (I think yes)?

The caster of Power Sink will still -already have paid- X plus a blue mana.
(Mana has colors just like many of the cards do: red, green, white, black,
blue. "XU" stands for a cost that needs one blue mana, and X of any kind
of mana, to be paid.)

>* When Power Sink is played, does the opponent have to pay mana or tap
>lands straight away, or later if and when the card is resolved (I think
>when its resolved)?

Nope. Mana costs, and activation costs for activated abilities, are paid
on announcement. You said you had found the current rulebook, I hope the
one at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourne... ? Take
a look in it at section 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities". And
I'll provide a helpful hint: "playing" a spell or activated ability is the
same as announcing it; this happens at the start of the spell/ability's
life cycle (see 409.1a). Resolving it happens later, at the end of its
life cycle, after any responses have been dealt with, and is handled in
section 413.

On announcement, in this order, you show the Power Sink from your hand,
put it onto the stack, pick the size of X, pick its target, calculate the
cost (normally X plus U), optionally use mana abilities to get mana with if
you haven't done so beforehand, then pay the cost.

On resolution, the Power Sink checks its target is still legal (if not, the
Power Sink gets countered). If it's legal, the target spell's controller gets
the chance to use mana abilities, then pay X, or may choose not to. If the
spell's controller does pay the X, nothing else happens and Power Sink is
done resolving and goes to owner's graveyard; if the X doesn't get paid, for
whatever reason, then the target spell's controller taps all his/her lands
- NOT FOR MANA, he/she just taps them, though he/she could have gotten mana
from them earlier in response to the Power Sink - and empties his/her mana
pool of any mana currently in it.

>COUNTERSPELL:
>* Can Counterspell counter Summon Creature (I think yes)?

Yes. A Summon spell (the old style; if you look at Gatherer it's going to
be a "Creature - <something>" spell these days) is a spell like any other,
and uses the stack to get cast. A Counterspell in response can counter the
creature spell. The only cards in Magic that are NOT spell cards are land
cards.

>REVEKA, WIZARD SAVANT:
>* Is Reveka a 'phasing' creature (I think no)?

Nope. Her text doesn't say she has "phasing", so she doesn't have it. She
is a legendary creature; she's got an activated ability that can deal damage;
she's blue; she's 0/1; none of these mean she also magically has phasing.
(Phasing is the most complicated keyword ability in Magic, with Madness and
Banding running second and third. 502.15 in the rulebook covers it; it's not
really intuitive to many players, though if you remember that it breaks
pretty much EVERY rule of how things come into play you'll get most of the
answers involving it right.)

>DARK MAZE:
>* Oracle states: 'Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't
>have defender.' The card is missing the 'as though' etc bit. What does
>that extra bit mean?

"As Though" in the Glossary explains this. (Yes, the Glossary can be
important.) It means that while affected by this ability's effect - and
notice that this IS an activated ability, and DOES have to be played / used /
announced before it can take effect, it's not "always on" - Dark Maze still
has Defender, but can ignore the restriction from Defender for the purposes
of attacking. In short, it can give itself "Pretend I don't have defender
this turn".

Longer answer: Its creature type is Wall. Up until last year, Wall was a
creature type with a special rule: Walls could not attack. (Legend was the
other creature type with a special rule, which was more complex.) They were
perfectly good creatures, and could do anything other creatures could do ...
except attack. Last year the rules team simplified things so we didn't have
two creature types with special rules; all Legends became Legendary creatures,
a supertype, and Legend isn't a creature type any more. All Walls got the
"Defender" ability, and a lot of cards involving Walls got their text changed
so they affected creatures with Defender instead. (A few did not.) "Defender"
means the same thing that Wall's special rule used to: a creature with
Defender can't attack. (502.41) However - Dark Maze was made to be a Wall that
could get around being unable to attack. The original text just said it could
attack this turn; back then, Homelands / 1995, templates weren't as strict as
they are now, and nobody knew the 'as though' would be needed. When it was
reprinted in 5th Edition, as you can see from Gatherer or possibly the one
you're looking at, the 'as though' got added.

'May Bar as though Foo' in Magic means "It doesn't Foo, but pretend it does for
the purpose of Barring", essentially.

>ENERGY FLUX:
>* Does this card affect both players (I think yes)?

Yes. It doesn't say "All artifacts you control gain" or "All artifacts
opponents control gain". It says "All artifacts gain '...'". So it applies to
all artifacts in play, because it doesn't say it only applies to one side's
or the other's.

>BLACK WARD:
>* If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
>would it already need to be in play?

It would need to be already in play AND it can only "stop" or interfere with
certain spells. Black Ward gives the creature it's attached to protection from
black. This does NOT mean ANYTHING like "totally unaffected by anything black"
- see section 502.7 . It means the creature:
has all Damage that would be dealt to it from black sources prevented;
can't be Enchanted/Equipped by black enchantments/equipment;
can't be Blocked by black creatures if it's attacking; and
can't be the Target of black spells or of abilities from black sources.
(D-E-B-T makes a good mnemonic for this.)

So if a creature has a Black Ward on it, a black spell can't _target_ the
creature, and an ability from something black that tries to -damage- it
has the damage prevented ... but it doesn't stop anything that doesn't
involve damaging, enchanting/equipping, blocking, or targetting the creature.
And notice that "target" is VERY specific - a spell/ability's text has to
SAY it targets to do so, or else it has to be a local-enchantment spell
being cast (on the stack).

>CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK
>* If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black to
>stop it?

No. In no way can that happen.

>Or would it already need to be in play?

Even if it's already in play, CoP: Black doesn't SAY anything about affecting
spells, stopping spells, countering spells, etc. What does it say it does?
It says "1: The next time a black source of your choice would deal damage to
you this turn, prevent that damage.". This just prevents the damage - the
source does not deal the damage to you, rather than dealing it. It does not
in any way stop, counter, or interfere with the spell or ability that's
causing the damage, or destroy the source of the damage, or anything like
that - it just says "I'm making a shield that, the next time this black
Something I've chosen tries to damage you this turn? It instead doesn't
deal any damage to you."

Also, note that this can't do anything about damage to CREATURES - you are
not your creatures, and vice versa. All this can do is prevent damage from
black spells/cards/permanents that's trying to get dealt to _you_.

>GABRIEL ANGELFIRE:
>* What does the '3' mean in the text of the card? Do I have to pay it
>in upkeep (if so, what happens if I don't)?

The 3 is part of one of the abilities you can choose. You can choose "flying";
"first strike"; "trample"; or "rampage 3". Rampage always comes with a number
attached; 502.12 explains that 'rampage 3' in particular means 'Whenever this
creature becomes blocked, it gets +X/+X this turn for each creature blocking
it beyond the first.'. So if you choose to give Gabriel the "rampage 3" in
your upkeep, then attack with him in your Combat phase, and he gets blocked
by four creatures, his Rampage 3 will trigger, and on resolution will give
him +9/+9 until end of turn.

>FYNDHORN BOW:
>* What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I have
>to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?

Three mana _and_ tap the Bow. Everything before the colon is part of
the activation cost. (Everything after the colon is part of the effect,
though you have to pick targets on announcement.) If the Bow is already
tapped, or if you can't find 3 mana in your mana pool to pay with, then you
can't pay, so you can't use the ability.

>DRAIN LIFE:
>* Are the extra black mana (to inflict damage) spent when the spell is
>played or when its resolved?

See the Power Sink answer above; same here - the mana cost, and any additional
cost(s), are paid on announcement.

Note that Drain Life's wording has gone back and forth over the years; its
current wording doesn't involve an additional cost at all. Rather, it has
a _mana cost_ of X1B - meaning normally that it would cost one black mana,
plus one of any kind, plus X of any kind, to pay this cost. The spell's
text puts a restriction on the X, so it's actually one black mana, plus
one of any type of mana, plus X more black mana.

Drain Life X1B Sorcery
Spend only black mana on X. / ~ deals X damage to target creature or player.
You gain life equal to the damage dealt, but not more life than the player's
life total before ~ dealt damage or the creature's toughness.

>If when its played, if something goes on
>the stack that destroy the target of Drain Life, does the caster of
>Drain Life still gain the extra lives (or only if the target was alive
>when Drain Life was resolved)?

If something destroys or removes its target "in response" (or makes it
an illegal target, say for example by using a Crown of the Ages to move
a Black Ward, already in play, over so it's now attached to the creature
the Drain Life targets), so that the target is illegal when Drain Life
tries to resolve? The Drain Life, as per 413.2a, is _countered_ rather than
resolving - it does not resolve, and has no effect at all. It simply goes from
the stack to owner's graveyard.

(Note that Drain Life has only one target, so the requirement "if ALL of its
targets are illegal" only has to check that one target.)

>STONE GIANT:
>* Could Stone Giant make itself fly if it had its toughness reduced to
>2 (by a spell etc)?

Sure could. That would make it a perfectly legal target to pick for its
own ability (assuming nothing had ALSO reduced its POWER of course).

>ONYX TALISMAN:
>* Can the black spell be cast by either player? Why would I think to
>use this artifact anyway?

It doesn't say "Whenever you play a black spell" or "Whenever an opponent
plays a black spell"; it says "Whenever a black spell is played, ...". (Again,
Oracle text, from Gatherer, is what you use these days. The originally-printed
text is _way_ not correct nowadays.) And you might want to, for example,
untap your Stone Giant so you could use its ability a second time, or untap
one of the lands that you had tapped to get mana from to pay for the black
spell, or untap your Prodigal Sorcerer, or any number of things.

(Note that untapping a creature does NOT, in and of itself, allow it to
somehow attack a second time in a turn. There -are- effects that allow this
but they all use some variant on "there will be another Combat phase this
turn" to do so.)

>TOR WAUKI:
>* How could Tor deal 2 damage to target blocking creature? If Tor was
>in the battle, wouldn't he be tapped already (so wouldn't be able to be
>tapped to use his special ability)?

Does it SAY "Play this ability only if Tor Wauki is attacking."? No, it
doesn't; he does not have to be attacking, OR blocking, to announce this
ability. The -target creature- must be; Tor Wauki does not need to be.

(Also, notice that only ATTACKING creatures get tapped by attacking; blocking
with a creature DOES NOT TAP IT. So if Tor Wauki was a blocker, there would
generally be no impediment to him using the ability anyway.)

>Thanks for your time

No problem; it's good sometimes to answer questions about the old cards...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 8:06:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> sent:
> [BACKGROUND]
> I am a complete MtG newbie. My background is more with Euro / German
> games (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/top10.htm etc). I did a trade
> recently with someone who made me three 'balanced' MtG decks (plus a
> few spares) to have a play with and see what I think.

Welcome. There's a FAQ for this group available at, among other
places:

http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/games/magic-t-g/ru...

I'll have a version hosted at the site listed as the URL in the FAQ
at some point, sorry to have overlooked that thus far.

> Most of the cards are from 3rd or 4th edition (according to the guy who
> made the decks). I was provided with an older rule book (3rd or 4th
> edition), but I have found the newer ones and the FAQs online, which
> have resolved most of my questions. I have looked up many of the cards
> on Gatherer too.

3rd Edition is also known as Revised.

The rules have changed a lot since Revised came out around 10 years
ago. The Gatherer can give you what's called the Oracle text for the
card; this is the official text of every card according to the current
set of rules. It clarifies many important points about how older
cards should work with the newer cards and rules, and helps to
ensure that you can use any Magic card in your deck.

> Note that I am yet to actually play. I want to be fairly confident with
> the rules before playing (I am like this with any game). I won't be
> playing in tournaments etc - mainly with my wife (who doesn't know MtG
> either).

It can be very useful to start playing once you've got most of the
ideas down, so that you get used to thinking across the stack and
the cost/effect separation.

> Apologies if many of these are newbie questions. I have read the rules
> many times, and no doubt many of the below questions are covered.
> Apologies in advance for that.

> [MY QUESTIONS]
> POWER SINK:
> * Can Counterspell counter Power Sink (I think yes)?

Yes. The only spells that Counterspell cannot counter are those that
say on them that they can't be countered, e.g.:

Scragnoth {4}{G} Creature -- Beast 3/4
/ Scragnoth can't be countered.
/ Protection from blue

> If so, does the
> caster of Power Sink still need to pay X + water (I think yes)?

The player who played Power Sink paid the X and the one blue mana
in order to successfully play the Power Sink in the first place; it's
only after it's been played onto the stack that anyone has the
opportunity to counter it.

Note that both Power Sink and Counterspell used to be 'Interrupt'
spells; the timing system was simplified when 6th Edition came
along, and we didn't need a separate Interrupt type any more. You
play these cards like Instant cards now, and they can target any
spell on the stack.

> * When Power Sink is played, does the opponent have to pay mana or tap
> lands straight away, or later if and when the card is resolved (I think
> when its resolved)?

When Power Sink resolves. Generally, most everything happens when things
resolve; the exceptions are listed in the rules for announcing spells
and abilities, section 409.1 in the rulebook. (I typed that from
memory, apologies if I got it wrong).

So, this sequence goes:

(Imagine Player A has four Mountains and two Islands)

Player A plays (e.g.) Hill Giant; puts the card on the stack, pays 3R
using RRRR from the four Mountains.
Player A gets a chance to respond, passes.
Player B plays Power Sink; puts the card on the stack, targets the
Hill Giant, makes X 3 to ensure that this will counter the spell
(Player A only has access to UU); pays 3U.
Player B gets a chance to respond, passes.
Player A plays Counterspell; puts the card on the stack, targets the
Power Sink, pays UU.
Player A gets a chance to respond, passes.
Player B gets a chance to respond, passes.
All players passed in succession, resolve the top of the stack:
Counterspell counters Power Sink.
Player A gets priority, as it's his/her turn. Passes.
Player B gets priority, passes.
All players passed in succession, resolve the top of the stack:
Hill Giant puts itself into play.

This is quite verbose, in practice it'd be more like:

tap-tap-tap-tap "Hill Giant"
tap-tap-tap-tap "Sink it for 3"
tap-tap "Counterspell"

and you'd just know what's targeting what and what happens when it
all resolves, because you'd have played so much that you expect it
all. :) 

> COUNTERSPELL:
> * Can Counterspell counter Summon Creature (I think yes)?

Yes.

An older card would have something like 'Summon Elves' on it; these
days it would be 'Creature - Elves'. Either way, it's still a spell
when you play it, and you can still counter it with a Counterspell.

> REVEKA, WIZARD SAVANT:
> * Is Reveka a 'phasing' creature (I think no)?

Reveka, Wizard Savant {2}{U}{U} Creature -- Legend 0/1
/ {T}: Reveka, Wizard Savant deals 2 damage to target creature or player
and doesn't untap during your next untap step.

No. Reveka does not have the ability 'Phasing.' Compare:

Sandbar Crocodile {4}{U} Creature -- Crocodile 6/5
/ Phasing

Phasing is complex, but it boils down to only having access to the
creature every other time your turn comes around, as a trade for the
card having a reduced cost compared to other similar cards.

> DARK MAZE:
> * Oracle states: 'Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't
> have defender.' The card is missing the 'as though' etc bit. What does
> that extra bit mean?

That's a bit of rules templating. It's spelling out that the ability
on the card lets you ignore a part of the rules for a specific
purpose; namely, for the purpose of declaring a legal attacker, you
can ignore the "defender" that Dark Maze has.

> ENERGY FLUX:
> * Does this card affect both players (I think yes)?

Energy Flux {2}{U} Enchantment
/ All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this
artifact unless you pay {2}."

This affects all artifacts in play, regardless of who controls them.
To do something different, it would have to read something like:

Artifacts that you don't control have "...

> BLACK WARD:
> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
> would it already need to be in play?

A Black Ward can't universally 'stop' a black spell; also, you usually
can't play Black Ward in response to a spell, as Black Ward is an
Enchantment and those can only be played in your own main phase when
the stack is empty.

If a Black Ward is enchanting a creature, then the following things
are changed for that creature:

- damage dealt to the creature from black sources (black spells or
black creatures, usually) is prevented.
- black enchantments and black equipment (which can't normally happen,
but can be contrived) can't be attached to the creature.
- black creatures can't block the creature.
- black spells and abilities from black sources can't target the
creature.

It's powerful, but it's not guaranteed immunity. For example:

Infest {1}{B}{B} Sorcery
/ All creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.

A creature with only 1 or 2 toughness can be killed by Infest even
if it's enchanted with a Black Ward.

> CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK
> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black to
> stop it? Or would it already need to be in play?

The same kind of answer as above; the enchantment can't usually be
played in response, and the ability of the CoP:Black won't 'stop'
the spell. All it can do is stop the damage that you'd receive.

Assume you've got one already in play, and the following happens:

Player A controls 8 swamps, and plays Corrupt targeting Player B:

Corrupt {5}{B} Sorcery
/ Corrupt deals damage equal to the number of Swamps you control to
target creature or player. You gain life equal to the damage dealt
this way.

(on the stack, chooses player B, pays 5B, gets priority, passes it)

Player B activates the ability of Circle of Protection: Black

(puts the ability on the stack, pays 1, gets priority, passes it)

Player A passes. Both passed in succession, top of the stack resolves.
Player B chooses the Corrupt as the source to prevent damage from. A
'shield' is set up for the turn around Player B, to edit the damage
from that source when it arrives.
Player A gets priority (after anything resolves, it's always the player
whose turn it is)
Player A passes, Player B passes, Corrupt resolves.
The prevention shield edits the effect from 'deal 8 damage, gain
that much life' to 'deal no damage, gain that much life'
Player A gets priority.

Net result is that the spell didn't do anything. However, if it had
other instructions on it that weren't concerned with the damage, they
would still all work OK.

> GABRIEL ANGELFIRE:
> * What does the '3' mean in the text of the card? Do I have to pay it
> in upkeep (if so, what happens if I don't)?

Gabriel Angelfire {3}{G}{G}{W}{W} Creature -- Legend 4/4
/ At the beginning of your upkeep, choose flying, first strike, trample,
or rampage 3. Gabriel Angelfire gains that ability until your next
upkeep.

The '3' is part of the rampage ability. A rampage ability always comes
with a number; the number represents a parameter for the ability. In
this case, it means 'when this creature becomes blocked, it gets +x/+x
until end of turn; x is 3 times (the number of blockers minus one)'
Rampage 4 would be 4 times the number of blockers minus one, and so on.

> FYNDHORN BOW:
> * What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I have
> to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?

Pay 3 and tap the permanent. The comma is just there to make things
stand out, it means the same as 'and'. Compare:

Granite Shard {3} Artifact
/ {3}, {T} or {R}, {T}: Granite Shard deals 1 damage to target creature
or player.

This is how an 'or' is written.

> DRAIN LIFE:
> * Are the extra black mana (to inflict damage) spent when the spell is
> played or when its resolved? If when its played, if something goes on
> the stack that destroy the target of Drain Life, does the caster of
> Drain Life still gain the extra lives (or only if the target was alive
> when Drain Life was resolved)?

You pay the extra when you play the spell. They reprinted it recently
with a (slightly) less confusing wording:

Drain Life {X}{1}{B} Sorcery
/ Spend only black mana on X.
/ Drain Life deals X damage to target creature or player. You gain life
equal to the damage dealt, but not more life than the player's life
total before Drain Life dealt damage or the creature's toughness.

If the target of the spell is destroyed in the meantime, then it
won't be a legal target when Drain Life tries to resolve. The rules
of the game will counter the Drain Life, and none of its effect will
take place. No damage dealt, no life gained.

> STONE GIANT:
> * Could Stone Giant make itself fly if it had its toughness reduced to
> 2 (by a spell etc)?

Stone Giant {2}{R}{R} Creature -- Giant 3/4
/ {T}: Target creature you control with toughness less than Stone
Giant's power gains flying until end of turn. At end of turn, destroy
that creature.

Yes, if it were given something like Sinister Strength:

Sinister Strength {1}{B} Enchant Creature
/ Enchanted creature gets +3/+1 and is black.

then it would be a 6/5, and it would be legal for its own ability.
However, it would be tapped and scheduled for destruction, which
means you'd rarely want to do this in practice.

> ONYX TALISMAN:
> * Can the black spell be cast by either player? Why would I think to
> use this artifact anyway?

Onyx Talisman {2} Artifact
/ Whenever a black spell is played, you may pay {3}. If you do, untap
target permanent.

The black spell could be cast by any player. We don't often delve in
to strategy here, but here's one scenario:

You could attack with a creature on your turn, then on your opponent's
turn when they're attacking, you could play a black Instant spell.
This would allow you to untap the creature you attacked with; suddenly,
you have the option of blocking with that creature.

> TOR WAUKI:
> * How could Tor deal 2 damage to target blocking creature? If Tor was
> in the battle, wouldn't he be tapped already (so wouldn't be able to be
> tapped to use his special ability)?

Tor Wauki {2}{B}{B}{R} Creature -- Legend 3/3
/ {T}: Tor Wauki deals 2 damage to target attacking or blocking
creature.

You're right that if Tor Wauki were attacking, he would normally be
tapped and unable to pay for his ability. However:

- All creatures that are attacking do so simultaneously, so there
can be several creatures involved in combat;
- Tor Wauki's target doesn't have to be blocking or blocked by Tor Wauki,
it just has to be participating in the current combat.

So it would be Just Fine to attack with some other creatures, wait
for the blocking assignment, then shoot a blocking creature from afar
with Tor Wauki.

> Thanks for your time

I hope the scenarios that I've spelled out have been useful and not too
confusing; I may use some of your questions in my updated FAQ material,
in fact, to help out other new players.

--
-- zoe
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 8:06:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 1 Jul 2005 16:06:54 GMT, Zoe Stephenson <zrs1@uk.ac.york.reversed> wrote:
>mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> sent:

>The rules have changed a lot since Revised came out around 10 years
>ago. The Gatherer can give you what's called the Oracle text for the
>card; this is the official text of every card according to the current
>set of rules. It clarifies many important points about how older
>cards should work with the newer cards and rules, and helps to
>ensure that you can use any Magic card in your deck.

Oddly enough, the flow, play, and feel of the game is still very close to,
and recognizable by, the initial few rules sets.

>It can be very useful to start playing once you've got most of the
>ideas down, so that you get used to thinking across the stack and
>the cost/effect separation.

It can also be very useful to, after every few games, read through the
rulebook -again-. Doing so will suddenly cause sections you ignored the
first time through because you couldn't understand them, or didn't see how
they applied, to pop out at you and make sense now...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 9:17:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:

> [MY QUESTIONS]

Will try to answer all of them. Note, however, that the rules for Magic
changed significantly (I mean a revolution-size change) with Sixth
Edition and are more streamlined than 3rd/4th.

POWER SINK/COUNTERSPELL:
Both can counter everything that is a spell, including creature spells
and each other as long as either is on the stack. Costs are played when
the spell is first played and goes on the stack, regardless of the fact
it might be countered later (so you still have to pay for Power Sink,
regardless of what happens).
You are correct -- the opponent has to pay for Power Sink when it
resolves, not as you play it. Your opponent can "save" himself from this
payment by countering the Power Sink, if he's able to.

REVEKA: No, he's not. It doesn't have phasing, because there's no
'phasing' written on the card.

> DARK MAZE
> * Oracle states: 'Dark Maze may attack this turn as though it didn't
> have defender.' The card is missing the 'as though' etc bit. What does
> that extra bit mean?
'Do X as though Y didn't have defender' means that Y still has defender
for the purposes of everything BUT X. So, if your opponent had a spell
that destroyed creatures with defender, it would still destroy Y.
However, you can do X ignoring defender (in this case, have Dark Maze
attack).

> ENERGY FLUX:
> * Does this card affect both players (I think yes)?
Yes it does. It says "all", and "all" means "all", including yours ;) 

> BLACK WARD:
> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
> would it already need to be in play?
Permanents must be in play for their abilities to apply. In this case,
Black Ward is an enchantment and you can only play enchantments in your
own turn, it's a Main phase and when the stack is empty (i.e. not "in
response" to something happening).

> CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK
> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black to
> stop it? Or would it already need to be in play?
Same as above, you can't.

> GABRIEL ANGELFIRE
> * What does the '3' mean in the text of the card? Do I have to pay it
> in upkeep (if so, what happens if I don't)?
The two "3"s I see in it are in the mana cost and in the rampage
ability.
The first 3 is the one in the upper right corner. It means that the card
costs three generic mana, plus two white mana, plus two green mana (a
total of 7 mana).
The second 3 is part of the Rampage ability. Taking from the
Comprehensive Rules:

502.12a Rampage is a triggered ability. "Rampage X" means "Whenever this
creature becomes
blocked, it gets +X/+X until end of turn for each creature blocking it
beyond the first."

Since the card says "rampage 3", whenever it becomes blocked, it gets
+3/+3 until end of turn for each creature blocking it beyond the first
(as long as it has the rampage 3 ability, of course).

> FYNDHORN BOW:
> * What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I have
> to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?
You must pay three generic mana and tap to play it.

> DRAIN LIFE:
> * Are the extra black mana (to inflict damage) spent when the spell is
> played or when its resolved? If when its played, if something goes on
> the stack that destroy the target of Drain Life, does the caster of
> Drain Life still gain the extra lives (or only if the target was alive
> when Drain Life was resolved)?
OK, be sure to read the rules about the stack very well before reading
the answer.
Drain Life's X is part of the cost, so it's paid as you play it.
So you play Drain Life.
Somebody plays something else that destroys the Drain Life's target. It
goes on the stack, then sometime later it resolves. Potentially other
instant spells and abilities are played here and resolve.
Sometime later, both player pass and it's Drain Life's turn to resolve.
When Drain Life would resolve, the game "sees" that the only target that
Drain Life has isn't there anymore. Since none of the Drain Life's
targets are legal, the game counters Drain Life on resolution, and none
of its effects are applied.
When a spell has any number of targets and all of them are illegal, that
spell is "countered on resolution" (i.e. right when it was trying to
resolve). If only some targets are legal, and some aren't anymore, the
spell resolves but has no effect on the illegal targets. Drain Life only
has one target, so this doesn't apply.

> STONE GIANT:
> * Could Stone Giant make itself fly if it had its toughness reduced to
> 2 (by a spell etc)?
It would be a creature you control with toughness less than Stone
Giant's power, so it would be a legal target for its own ability.
Remember that you still have to destroy it at the end of turn.

> ONYX TALISMAN:
> * Can the black spell be cast by either player? Why would I think to
> use this artifact anyway?
"Cast" has no longer any meaning in post-Sixth Edition rules. The Oracle
says that the ability triggers when the spell is played.
Anyway, yes, the black spell can be played by any player for this card
to trigger. Well... you could use this to, you know, untap things :D 
maybe play a black removal spell to destroy an attacker while untapping
a creature that will serve as a blocker later. Or use Stone Giant's
ability again. Or something like that. Dunno exactly what. Up to you to
decide ;D

> TOR WAUKI:
> * How could Tor deal 2 damage to target blocking creature? If Tor was
> in the battle, wouldn't he be tapped already (so wouldn't be able to be
> tapped to use his special ability)?
He doesn't have to be in combat to use that ability. Note that you don't
have to attack with _all_ creatures every turn; you can declare any
number of attackers, and you aren't forced to choose any particular
number of them, not even "all of them" (unless some effect says
otherwise, of course).
If Tor Wauki doesn't attack, but some other creature you control does
and your opponent blocks with one of his or her creatures, then you can
use Tor Wauki's ability as the blocking creature is a legal target for
it. You may also use the ability if Tor Wauki is somehow untapped after
it attacks (a combo with Onyx Talisman, maybe?) -- untapping does not
remove a creature for combat, it's merely something you have to do in
order to declare a creature as an attacker.

- ∞

--
I miei post non sbagliano. E' la realta' ad essere inesatta.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 9:17:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

l0ne <thethinker@email.it.is.not.invalid> wrote:
>mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:
>> BLACK WARD:
>> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Black Ward to stop it? Or
>> would it already need to be in play?
>Permanents must be in play for their abilities to apply. In this case,
>Black Ward is an enchantment and you can only play enchantments in your
>own turn, it's a Main phase and when the stack is empty (i.e. not "in
>response" to something happening).
>
>> CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK
>> * If a black spell is cast, can I play a Circle of Protection: Black to
>> stop it? Or would it already need to be in play?
>Same as above, you can't.

Good basic points there. Creature spells, enchantment spells, and artifact
spells can't be played "any time" - only, as l0ne notes, during your own
turn's Main phase, if the stack is empty and you have priority. Sorcery
spells also have this restriction, as does playing a land (using your special
one-per-turn action to lay a land card from your hand). Only Instant spells,
usually, can be cast on opponent's turn or in your turn outside of a Main
phase. Activated abilities can also be played any time you could play an
Instant - any time you have "priority".

>> FYNDHORN BOW:
>> * What does 3,TAP (the comma in particular) mean? Does that mean I have
>> to pay three mana AND Tap? Or three mana OR Tap?
>You must pay three generic mana and tap to play it.

....to play the -ability-, of course. Casting the artifact spell in the first
place costs 2.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 9:24:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

l0ne <thethinker@email.it.is.not.invalid> wrote:

> Note, however, that the rules for Magic
> changed significantly (I mean a revolution-size change) with Sixth
> Edition and are more streamlined than 3rd/4th.

Forgot to add this: look on the Internet for the Comprehensive Rules
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourne...) for
answers to ALL of your questions. However, if you're just starting out,
the 104-pages-at-10pt-times Comprehensive Rules may be a bit too much;
if so, you should also check out the Eight Edition core game's rulebook
(you can find it online at
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/casual...) which is
more streamlined and is (almost entirely) based upon the most current
rules (although there have been tweaks here and there since Eight
Edition came out last year, so be sure to check out that page again when
Ninth Edition comes out this summer, or look at the Comprehensive Rules
if in doubt).

- ∞

--
I miei post non sbagliano. E' la realta' ad essere inesatta.
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 8:51:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thanks for all the replies. All very helpful.

Most of the questions I thought I knew the answers too, but asked them
'just in case'.

Thanks again
Matthew
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 12:52:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One more question. ;-)

If Dark Maze blocks, does it have 4 power at that time (ie the attacker
loses 4 lives)? Or is that only if Dark Maze attacks?
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 4:30:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave,

>> I don't see anything there that says "Whenever Dark Maze blocks, it gets -4/-0
until end of turn.", and nothing about the rules for Walls says
anything
about reducing its power to zero, so it will still have 4 power if it
blocks.

Thanks for the answer. Some things no doubt seem clear to you, but are
less clear to the newbie (I actually was right in how it worked, but
just wanted to check to be sure). ;-)

>> what makes you think the ATTACKER loses life, or even takes damage, from a
_BLOCKING_ creature? This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh. Blocking creatures can only
assign,
and deal, their combat damage to the creature(s) they are blocking;
they never
assign combat damage to attacking player.

Apologies for the incorrect terminology. Obviously, by attacker I meant
attacking creature and by lives I meant toughness. Since I have never
played YuGiOh (I am a Euro boardgame player mainly), I have no idea
what you are talking about there.

Seeya
Matthew
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 5:53:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:
>One more question. ;-)
>
>If Dark Maze blocks, does it have 4 power at that time (ie the attacker
>loses 4 lives)? Or is that only if Dark Maze attacks?

Dark Maze 4U Creature -- Wall
4/5 Defender (This creature can't attack.) 0: ~ may attack this turn as though
it didn't have defender. Remove it from the game at end of turn.

I don't see anything there that says "Whenever Dark Maze blocks, it gets -4/-0
until end of turn.", and nothing about the rules for Walls says anything
about reducing its power to zero, so it will still have 4 power if it blocks.

BUT:

what makes you think the ATTACKER loses life, or even takes damage, from a
_BLOCKING_ creature? This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh. Blocking creatures can only assign,
and deal, their combat damage to the creature(s) they are blocking; they never
assign combat damage to attacking player.

So the attacker takes no damage, and loses no life, from a blocking Wall, or
a blocking anything else for that matter.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 9:02:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David,

You are correct. And I thought boardgamers were pedantic about
terminology. ;-)

Seeya
Matthew
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 2:42:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, mjwills wrote:

> Apologies for the incorrect terminology. Obviously, by attacker I meant
> attacking creature and by lives I meant toughness. Since I have never
> played YuGiOh (I am a Euro boardgame player mainly), I have no idea
> what you are talking about there.

The attacking creature takes damage but this won't change the
toughness of the creature. The damage is removed at end of turn. The
toughness never changed.

--
David
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 6:16:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:
>>I don't see anything there that says "Whenever Dark Maze blocks, it gets -4/-0
>>until end of turn.", and nothing about the rules for Walls says anything
>>about reducing its power to zero, so it will still have 4 power if it blocks.
>
>Thanks for the answer. Some things no doubt seem clear to you, but are
>less clear to the newbie (I actually was right in how it worked, but
>just wanted to check to be sure). ;-)

Fair enough. Note that we do try to write the cards so that they say what they
mean ... though of course it's not possible to change a card's printed wording
after it's printed, so we also have had Oracle since 5th Edition (and now
gatherer.wizards.com).

>> what makes you think the ATTACKER loses life, or even takes damage, from a
>>_BLOCKING_ creature? This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh. Blocking creatures can only assign,
>>and deal, their combat damage to the creature(s) they are blocking; they never
>>assign combat damage to attacking player.
>
>Apologies for the incorrect terminology. Obviously, by attacker I meant
>attacking creature

Okay. (Correct terminology helps a lot in understanding for newer people, too;
for instance, lands are NOT mana, and vice versa - once you know that you have
a much better chance of seeing what's actually going on.) Yes, there's
attacking creatures, and there's an attacking player; the latter is who is
usually referred to if someone says "the attacker", though "the attackers"
can be the group of creatures.

>and by lives I meant toughness.

Okay, whoa. Dealing damage to a creature in no way changes or lowers its
toughness. To change toughness you have to use some effect that says it
gets -0/-N or the like.

Damage is kept track of over the turn, for permanents, and is compared to
toughness at each time state-based effects are checked - each time any player
gets priority - but it doesn't _change_ the toughness. A 4/4 creature that
takes 2 damage doesn't become a 4/2 creature (unless some odd effect that
is affecting it says so of course); it's a 4/4 creature with 2 damage on it.

>Since I have never
>played YuGiOh (I am a Euro boardgame player mainly), I have no idea
>what you are talking about there.

Fair enough. There -are- a group of collectible card games that use attacking
and blocking, maybe with different words, in which the blockers can damage
the attacking player. But Magic isn't one of them (and never was).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 6:20:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

mjwills <matthew_wills@mlc.com.au> wrote:
>You are correct. And I thought boardgamers were pedantic about
>terminology. ;-)

Magic's a game based largely on card wordings and rule wordings; we've
learnt, very early on, that being imprecise in your wordings can easily
change a question's answer from 'yes' to 'no' or vice versa, sometimes
several times in one answer.

(The Unlimited rulebook noted that if players had a disagreement over how
a wording or rule worked ... well, here's the paragraph:

"During the course of a game, a dispute that you cannot solve by referencing
the rules may occur. If both players agree, you can resolve the difference for
the current game with a coin toss. After the duel, you can come to a decision
about how you want to play such a situation in the future. If the players
don't agree to a coin toss, both players retrieve their ante and the duel is a
draw."

Oh how innocent R&D was back then! And how charmingly trusting that any given
pair of players could come to an agreement on how things worked using "common
sense"! Of course, the above paragraph was conspicuously absent from later
editions of the rules...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!