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ATI SUCKS!

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August 6, 2003 12:18:41 PM

How the HELL does ATI keep their business?! I've tried 3 different ATI products and all three have failed to work. nVidia products work like a charm! ATI's tech support knows less about computers than I do and they're such sticklers about product numbers and such!How do they stay in business? I just don't understand, I mean it seems that their hardware is pretty good . They just couldn't program software if their life depended on it! I know nVidia the cheated upon a benchmark , but at least their products work . ATI Can tell of the fastest benchmark in the entire world , but what good is it if their product crashes computers?! I will never recommend an ATI card to anybody ever again!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by draiko on 08/06/03 08:23 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

More about : ati sucks

August 6, 2003 12:32:18 PM

You sounded like been payed by Nvidia just to spam forums and scare newbies to not buy ATI cards :tongue: .
August 6, 2003 12:34:17 PM

With the experience that I've had with ATI cards , I'm doing it for free . Think of it as a public service . You all can think the later !

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
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August 6, 2003 12:56:04 PM

hehe.. how about your system could be incompatible to the ati cards by some reason? :D 

uhm, i had the same with all nvidia cards, so what? don't blame nvidia because the system itself is instable and ati works on it.. don't blame ati because yours is unstable with ati cards..


oh, and reading the mobility reviews of both nvidia and ati, you'll see that nvidia crashes while ati doesn't..


yes, ati cards are good, and yes, in a proper system, they run perfectly stable.. i have enough proof of that..

and no, current nvidia drivers are neighter reliable nor stable on much systems.. they just have tons of driverversions, one will be stable on each system i guess.. :D 

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
August 6, 2003 1:01:45 PM

See, I wouldn't be complaining if it wasn't for the fact that I've tried three ATI graphics products in four different computers and when configuration was tested before . The reset up is using the latest proper ATI drivers along with updated bios and completely updated drivers for all components . I've also worked as a computer technician and countless systems came in with problems stemming from ATI graphics products . Nice try, but when I make a statement like this I make sure I can back it up . nVidia may have their problems , but at least their product works on 80 to 90 percent of hardware out there . It's terrible that they cheated on the benchmark , all I had to do was to show the public how horrible real life experiences with and use of their competitors product can be and tout their superior stability .

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 1:28:10 PM

what ati cards you tried? and what systems..

your RealLife(tm) eXPiriences are WAY OFF what normal real life shows up.. i'm interested in the reason for this..

"take a look around" - limp bizkit

www.google.com
August 6, 2003 2:17:30 PM

ATI Radeon 7500
ATI TV Wonder VE
ATI All-in-Wonder VE

with all versions of catalyst and MMC apps + components on rigs with Asus and Intel mom boards... little room for error there

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 2:20:40 PM

that's funny, from what I've seen just searching for problems with graphics cards, more people seem to comment about ATI's ability to create useless drivers and software . Most nvidia's problems the have been solved by newer driver revisions while ATI's problems still persist . Their tech support is absolutely useless , offering no further information other than that on their FAQs.

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 2:26:05 PM

As a person who runs a side business assembling PC's, I have to say my experience has been entirely the opposite of yours.

I have put together many systems with Rage 128s, Radeon 7500s, 8500s, and 9500s with absolutely no problems at all.

------------------
Radeon 9500 w/256 bit memory bus @ 367/310
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3439
August 6, 2003 3:13:02 PM

I've been using ATI cards for so long time, from the old ATI Rage Pro, Radeon SDR, and then now Radeon8500, all of three cards work with different system I had, from AMD K6-2, Celeron to now, Athlon XP
and they work Perfectly..no problem at all
August 6, 2003 3:37:33 PM

As tech support people say. Hey I think this problem is a CODE-18.


Proplem is 18 inches in front of the monitor !
August 6, 2003 3:37:42 PM

Yup, same here. I've been using ATI cards since their 2D Xpression Mach64 cards. No problems here.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
August 6, 2003 4:06:32 PM

Then maybe you can tell me why both the TV wonder and the all in wonder VE cause a celeron running on an Intel i810e with a 1.4 ghz celeron, no add-on cards, built in Intel graphics card disabled, running Windows XP Pro w/ Direct X 9.0b, SP1, all updates installed, no special software except ATI catalyst 3.6, newest DAO, windows media encoder, and ATI MMC 8.5 (also tried all other versions of the catalyst and MMC) keeps rebooting when the TV app runs. Or maybe why a TV wonder VE keeps locking up on an AsRock K7vm2 (made by Asus) with the same setup. Don't even get me started on my computer, an Asus A7A266 (yes I know about the volatile nature of the ALI magik chipset and ATI cards) and the other Intel P3 rig, plus the old Radeon and the Dell R400. I couldn't find a reason, neither could ATI tech support... think you can, hot shot?!

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 4:08:42 PM

heh... we usually used the ID 10-T user error comment

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 4:24:57 PM

So you're condemning an entire company's product lineup because you have a problem with the wonder cards?

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but maybe blacklisting the company isn't the answer. Try asking around on the boards first. IN fact, try asking around at Rage3d.com, where there are boards just for the TV wonder and AIW products.

------------------
Radeon 9500 w/256 bit memory bus @ 367/310
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3439
August 6, 2003 4:44:45 PM

I'd still have these questions about your install,

BTW, if you haven't tried ALL of these things I list below, you aren't a very good technician...no offense, but if you haven't tried all of these then you need to give em a go:

1. Virus software disabled when you installed the drivers?
2. ALL applications quit when you installed it?
3. Previous video card drivers uninstalled?

4. If all these first three have taken place, did you let microsoft install its generic drivers when you rebooted? If yes, that could affect things as well. I would have rebooted into safe mode as to not install the generic driver. Then I'd go to Windows/System32 directory, and delete all the files that start with AT on them. After this I would reinstall the new drivers and reboot. This could solve the problem.

Side note for #4: See the old drivers from ATI don't uninstall themselves the whole way (one of the problems from ATI in its driver error prone starting up days). One has to manually uninstall some of the files...especially with the old cards that you are using in this example.

5. Another option is to install the driver manually with an extraction application instead of the default ATI package. This way you can actually 'see' the files going into the directories they are supposed to go into.

6. Another option would be to use a NTFSDOS boot disk to browse the harddrive on reboot and manually delete the ATI drivers. Then take the extracted files for the new drivers and put them in place...all from the DOS prompt.

I know it all sounds like a bit much...but I did more work at trying to get my GF2 TI card Overclocked than these 6 things would generate. I also have no doubt that I could get those three cards working on any computer you gave me within a couple of hours. Perhaps I've been in the biz a bit more or perhaps my mind works less linear than most, but I'd say if you didn't try all of these things you didn't do your best to get the cards up and running. Give me some more time, I'll think of some more things as well...I had to go off the top of my head with those six.

Regards,


<font color=red>Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all life's problems. </font color=red>
<font color=green>Homer Simpson</font color=green>

TKS
August 6, 2003 5:01:08 PM

I'll have to give numbers 4-6 a try today. One thing, you had your problems OVERCLOCKING an nVidia card, I have to do all of this footwork in order to EVEN GET THIS CARD TO WORK! How can a company even sell a card that doesn't work right out of the box. I don't know about you, but when I buy a graphics card, pay for the hardware AND the software. High benchmarks are USELESS unless the hardware actually RUNS! I'm tired of the industry thinking they can put out products that just don't work, they don't even consider the poor non-enthusiast consumers or people unfamiliar with the individual tweaks of their cards and software. That's Bad Business in my book. I'm not saying that nVidia's business practices are any better, the benchmark cheating and all their SEC insider trading violations hardly make them angels, but at least they put out a well-performing product that works out of the box for over 90% of their consumers. In this case, nVidia is the MUCH lesser of two evils.

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 5:04:23 PM

After we are done arguing about this, lets argue which is better "The Beatles Vs. Elvis"?
August 6, 2003 5:12:02 PM

both were overrated and ATI still sucks

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Draiko on 08/06/03 01:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 6, 2003 5:22:35 PM

Yeah well my 1 year old 9700pro wipes the floor with 90% of anything else thats out there in terms of performance and stability. Not 1 problem hardware or software related in this time, except for me trying to run it on a 300w generic psu with 2 hdisks,2 cdroms and a pally xp :) 

My past systems have involved a geforce 3 and a 64mb ddr from ati. No real problems with both of these cards except when the ATI card came out, my mobo didnt support it so it needed a simple bios update. The only thing I see wrong with ATI, like most hardware manufacturers, is the hardware is so advanced that newer drivers are needed for them to work properly.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6850469 " target="_new"> MY RIG </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1065087" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
<font color=red> 120% overclocker </font color=red> (cheapskate)
August 6, 2003 5:52:08 PM

OH YA!! WELL MY Ti 4200 IS CHEAPER BEAT THAT!!! LOL

man where's Grape, i think i need to use my passage of wisdom on this guy again (but it'll piss someone off)

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
August 6, 2003 6:07:30 PM

Crap! You just made me think of something with that post.

I think the interesting thing about ATI is that early on (in the small beginning) they had very little support with board makers. They had to put out their OWN boards w/ the VPU's. I remember that Nvidia also did this early on, but then they began to sell the VPU to card makers to manufactur and distribute the boards/cards. I recall Xtasy making some kick arse GF cards back in the dizzay as well as Leadtek. So, not to try and defend any one company...but perhaps ATI sucked arse until they got more support from card makers later on with the 8500 and up series'? They were kind of on their own until then...
For ATI, it was probably like doing anything you have little experience doing and doing it mediocre...then going out and getting some help from someone who has done it before and improving tenfold... I dunno, I might be the retard king on this one. I know that one of the main reasons I didn't like Nvidia back in the day is because when they bought out 3dfx they got rid of glide. Man did that piss me off. You shoulda seen the fps I was getting with the old 3dfx card in UT. I would install it along side my 9500 Pro today just for that game. Glide kicked arse. Crap, I'm taking a trip down nostalgia lane...apologies everyone. I'm done, stick a pitchfork in me.

<font color=red>Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all life's problems. </font color=red>
<font color=green>Homer Simpson</font color=green>

TKS
August 6, 2003 6:18:45 PM

I would think that if ATI was manufacturing their own cards, their drivers would be custom tailored to their hardware and there would've been less chance of having problems because they were in control of which components were used in their cards, no?

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 6:35:59 PM

Ati *IS* in control of the boards their partners release.

Ati partners have to pass strict manufacturing criteria, or Ati won't let them be partners. Same with Nvidia.

All new video cards are 95% based on the reference card, anyway.

------------------
Radeon 9500 w/256 bit memory bus @ 367/310
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3439
August 6, 2003 6:52:21 PM

welp, guess what, I've just tried everything possible with the ATI All in wonder VE PCI and the intel celeron rig to no avail and I don't feel like writing my own drivers, ATI had nothing to say except that the board is either incompatible or defective. I have nothing more to say to ATI and I will never recommend ATI cards to anyone ever again. ATI will haunt me for quite a while, I just hope that nVidia starts doing more with TV tuners so that ATI will be shoveled out of business, nVidia has already signed on with INTEL about a month after ATI signed on with them so nVidia has a market edge over ATI, they have both Intel and AMD while ATI has partnered with intel only. I just hope nVidia can come through with a chip that's lightyears faster than anything ATI without cheating on the benchmarks, nVidia is just simply a more advanced and user friendly company. They've made their hardware work with most other hardware without any bios updates or special driver installation steps and issues. either nVidia needs to get with the program and actually make the fastest card out there without cheating or ATI needs to restaff their driver programming dept.

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2003 7:33:58 PM

Coolsquirtle you have my permission to quote from the ancient tome. :wink: DH relax it's all in good fun! :lol: 

I'm not worried about anyone taking this wahoo seriously so, 'DAM the Torpedoes' and prepare to fire a volley broadside with our prepared response. :cool:

I wanted to stay out of this because it's obviously a nOOb troll who's experiences are as narrow as his mind. I wash my hands of it.
** GrapeApe does Dealer/Croupier hand motions/claps and walks away **


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
August 6, 2003 7:53:16 PM

you make me laugh... since when does someone posting his frustrations about several of a certain company's products not working at all when installed on all of 5 computers constitute narrowmindedness? At least I've tried out several products of all companies that I pass judgement to... since when does this constitute narrowmindedness? How can you even try assume that I'm a noob? I'm just an enthusiast that believes in products working out of the box! I don't like to unpack a card, install it, and have to jump through hoops for hours on end just to get it to work! I also like to keep others from going through what I just had to go through! Now I'm getting flamed for it from a bunch of ATI fanboys? ATI's software sucks! I haven't read a good report on any TV tuner involved ATI card as of yet! From the ones I've been reading, everyone is having similar problems... boy, I wish I would've done this before investing in the AIW... Would've saved me $4.95 in shipping!

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 8:11:01 PM

Let me see if I can follow your logic here:

1- I am having problems with Ati
2- other people seem to be doing OK with Ati
Therefore:
3- Everyone else is an idiot Ati fanboy, and Ati hardware sucks

I guess I'm not as smart as you are, but I have to admit that I am drawing a different conclusion using the same data...

------------------
Radeon 9500 w/256 bit memory bus @ 367/310
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3439
August 6, 2003 8:44:46 PM

no no no...

it's more like this

1. ATI's software was always their weakness
2. ATI now has good benchmarks and is in the spotlight
3. I assume that ATI would've improved their software
4. I bought several ATI products
5. They didn't work
6. I looked up what others are saying about ATI products
7. Reports are bad
8. lesson learned , ATI's software still sucks monkey balls

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 8:47:18 PM

here you go... a recent graphics card problem posted here in this THG Board...

"I had posted a while back about a problem I was having. I had bought a 9500pro and was very happy. Then I Dled DirectX 9.0 when it came out and after that any time I tried to play a game, within a minute my entire system would crash and reboot. So I got DX9.0a and catalyst 3.4 and still the problem persisted. no matter how many times I formatted and reinstalled to try different combinations of factors, the problem persisted.
I moved, and my computer has been down for 3 months. Got it back up today and installed DirectX 9.0b and catalyst 3.6 and everything seemed to be running great. Graphics looked good, everything was running well. Then, after about half an hour of playing my system crashed and when I rebooted I had tons of artifacts. My entire screen (the windows desktop) was full of artifacts to the point where I couldnt read any of my icons. I am letting my computer cool down now to see if maybe it is heat. However, when the problem was happening before, I had a room fan running full blast on my system to make sure that wasnt the issue.

Please, any help or suggestions would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Radiant

Athlon 1.4
epox 8k7a+
256megs Crucial DDR RAM
ATI Radeon 9500Pro
Soundblaster PCI128
ViewSonic A95f 19"
WinXP Pro SP1 "

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 6, 2003 8:51:05 PM

Yup. You must be right. Someone had a problem, so Ati must suck.

Wow. I'm convinced... I'll throw away my great video card, steal and destroy all of my friends Ati cards that work fine, and tell everybody that I know that Ati sucks.

Yep. We're all convinced. Nice work pointing out one person's problem there, Draiko. And it couldn't possibly be a problem with his motherboard, or RAM, or setup... nope, because he's using an Ati card. Must be that.

I've got to admit, I didn't think that it was possible that someone would have a problem with an Ati card before you showed me the light.

------------------
Radeon 9500 w/256 bit memory bus @ 367/310
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3439
August 6, 2003 11:16:44 PM

You have had problems with ATI cards. that's fine, not everybody knows how to properly insert graphics cards into the correct slot. Now, a normal person would simply say, "ATI hasn't worked for me, so I won't buy them now, but if my friend has one, more power to him".
You, on the other hand, have posted post after post saying how much you don't like them. We here at THGC understood that you didn't like ATI after your second post, but you continue to go and on and on....just like a babbling fool. You have gone out of your way to blame ATI for just about everything under the sun. If you don't like ATI, fine leave it at that, and stop wasting bandwidth venting your hot air. And just so you know, I had an Nvidia card in my system, replaced it with a new Radeon card, and now my system is more stable than with the previous Nvidia card.(In case your little brain didn't catch that, my system crashes less with my ATI card).

You, Draiko, are what we call an NVidiot.
August 6, 2003 11:19:24 PM

Draiko said:
"ATI will be shoveled out of business, nVidia has already signed on with INTEL about a month after ATI signed on with them so nVidia has a market edge over ATI, they have both Intel and AMD while ATI has partnered with intel only..."

Where's the proof. I havn't heard of Nvidia making chipsets for Intel. Care to provide some links for us uninformed members?
August 6, 2003 11:40:07 PM

Market Report -- In Play (ATYT, INTC, NVDA)
August 05, 2003 07:08:00 AM ET


ATI Tech downgraded at Wedbush Morgan (ATYT) 12.88: Wedbush Morgan downgrades to Hold from Buy based on valuation as well as increasing competition from INTC in notebook integrated chipsets and NVDA in integrated chipsets for both desktop and notebook; firm expects INTC's mkt share to increase significantly next spring in integrated notebooks, and are now more convinced about the probability that NVDA will enter a license agreement with INTC to sell integrated chipsets for desktops and notebooks.

Briefing.com is the leading Internet provider of live market analysis for U.S. Stock, U.S. Bond, and world FX market participants.
Read more In Play articles

Back to Recent News

http://moneycentral.msn.com/scripts/webquote.dll?iPage=...

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 7, 2003 12:42:33 AM

Hmm, I like this guy, you wanna get recruite into my club? We trash all Ati cards we find.

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
August 7, 2003 12:47:40 AM

i found it!! with new stuff!!

ENOUGH OF THIS!!!!

Everyone, go get urself a Matrox and praise it's Image quality LOL

okay seriously...........
"ATi does not have better drivers than nVidia Period." Quote from me~~~
9800pro beats Fx5900Ultra in some tests
5900Ultra beats 9800 pro in some tests
fanATics will disagree and throw ugly HSf at nVidiots
nVidiots will disagree and throw dustblowers at fanATics
Matrox fanboy --> Grape will disagree and smack everyone
DH will said bullshit to everything
GW's gone missing
And WS has pissed off alot of newbies
crazy 3Dfx people thinks Voodoo 5 6000 and RAMPAGE will dominate the video market
I think you're all insane
DH thinks i'm insane
Eden's just......... Eden
davepermen is some crazy graphic guru that care more about his gf then the people on this board (well DUH!!)
Everyone has different opinions
WS will rape anyone that has a different opinion than his
I think i need some beer
different websites even have different benchmark results
fanATics will think the site that has 9800pro kicking ass is the vaild benchmark (hence gamepc)
nVidiots will think the site that had 5900Ultra kicking ass is the valid benchmark (hence THG)
different owners will have different problems
such as
My power supply blow up
I fried my card
FX5900 not booting
9800pro has driver problems
i took the ram outta my video card (for GW ^^)
My MX440 is doing crappy in Unreal 2k3
my ATi product wont work so all ATi product can suck my arse
i need some beer
newbies needs to chill out
i need a new CPU/mobo/ram/video card/sound card/PDA
so?
what can u do?
use onboard video~~ LOL
(don't flame me)


Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Coolsquirtle on 08/07/03 11:10 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 7, 2003 1:04:40 AM

sorry, kid... I'm all about good and bad here... I already do zero to laid in under 2 seconds.

And the Lord Spoke to the people and said "You may kiss my holy ass!" Amen
August 7, 2003 1:59:30 AM

hehe

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
August 7, 2003 2:50:07 AM

Go away Honorary Exaggerator Extraordinaire of THGC.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>The sexiest website ever, guaranteed XXX!!!</font color=blue></b></A> :wink:
PS: New sexy users' sites now added! :smile:
August 7, 2003 3:29:23 AM

ive owned every ATI card up to the 8500

everyone has worked better thatn the NVidia equivelant ive owned

the problem is on your end. your a freaking spammer

-------

<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new"> I highly recommend you DONT click my signature. Dont say I didnt warn you!1!! </A>
August 7, 2003 3:39:38 AM

go shove a fish up your ass.

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
August 7, 2003 3:40:14 AM

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
August 7, 2003 3:44:46 AM

all you homos should go to a chat line and bicker, surely there's a chat line somewhere about ati and nvida, you could talk all day long about crap. NERDS

If he doesn't die, he'll get help!!!
August 7, 2003 3:49:48 AM

oh man, j00 is l337. You seriously think I posted here about NV vs. Ati? I could care less at the moment since I see no reason for ME to upgrade, thus it is unimportant to ME to follow the technology very closely (which is why I'm not posting very often here sparky). I'm simply reading a book for school and bored out my mind so I posted something random. And grow up kid, calling people homos was 7th grade. Finally, by calling me a nerd you state that I am socially inept, etc. Do you even know me? No. So don't draw conclusions. Now run along and go play with the other children, remember, keep your hands off them or there won't be playtime.

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
August 7, 2003 4:06:04 AM

Quote:
thus it is unimportant to ME to follow the technology very closely (which is why I'm not posting very often here sparky). I'm


so tahts why you argue everything like your the only one who knows what you are talking about? thats why you said i was an idiot for being unimpressed with my TI4200? beacuse you dont follow things and dont know teh facts as well as others here?

-------

<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new"> I highly recommend you DONT click my signature. Dont say I didnt warn you!1!! </A>
August 7, 2003 4:06:33 AM

Lol, was that typed with a lisp!!!

If he doesn't die, he'll get help!!!
August 7, 2003 4:26:24 AM

You make no sense.

It's not about good or bad, it's about which gets you rich and laid faster.
!