Trigger timing

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Hello,

I have two questions about the timing of triggered abilities:

1)

I have a Samurai of the Pale Curtain in play.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
WW
Creature - Fox Samurai
2/2
Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

I attack with it and it is blocked by a vanilla 3/3 creature. Combat
damage goes on the stack and resolves without any further interruptions.
The question is which of the two creatures - if any - will be removed from
the game.
Here's my take on answering it. Please correct me if I'm wrong there:
The damage resolves and both creatures are dealt lethal damage. Now 420.5c
comes in:

420.5c A creature with lethal damage, but greater than 0 toughness, is
destroyed. Lethal damage is an amount of damage greater than or
equal to a creature's toughness. Regeneration can replace this event.

But now it's getting tricky, as both creatures are on their way to the
graveyard. My guess is that as the Pale Curtain is itself going to the
graveyard it's triggered ability can't fire, because ... well here it's
getting all messy for me and I'd say it's no longer a permanent in play at
that time.

2)

This question is about a specific rule:

310.4a Combat damage is dealt as it was originally assigned even if the
creature dealing damage is no longer in play, its power has
changed, or the creature receiving damage has left combat.

Let's setup a scenario for this: Player A has an infamous Sakura-Tribe
Elder in play and Player B some creature equipped with the also infamous
Umezawa's Jitte. B attacks, A blocks with the Elder. Damage goes on the
stack and the Elder is sacrificed.

Umezawa's Jitte
2
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put two charge counters on Umezawa's Jitte.
Remove a charge counter from Umezawa's Jitte: Choose one - Equipped creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn;
or target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn; or you gain 2 life.
Equip 2

Now I was pretty sure that the Jitte doesn't get counters this way.. at
least until I came across the above rule. According to this rule the
creature receiving damage has left combat, so the combat damage gets
dealt nevertheless. And as the equipped creature now dealt combat damage
the triggered ability will trigger.. so either I was wrong all the time
and the Elder does have to be sacrificed before damage goes on the stack
or I'm missing something else here.

Thanks for clearing these issues up,
Frank

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Frank Raiser <frank.raiser.doesnt@like.spam.informatik.uni-ulm.de>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have two questions about the timing of triggered abilities:
>
> 1)
>
> I have a Samurai of the Pale Curtain in play.
>
> Samurai of the Pale Curtain
> WW
> Creature - Fox Samurai
> 2/2
> Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of
turn.)
> If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.
>
> I attack with it and it is blocked by a vanilla 3/3 creature. Combat
> damage goes on the stack and resolves without any further interruptions.
> The question is which of the two creatures - if any - will be removed from
> the game.
> Here's my take on answering it. Please correct me if I'm wrong there:
> The damage resolves and both creatures are dealt lethal damage. Now 420.5c
> comes in:
>
> 420.5c A creature with lethal damage, but greater than 0 toughness, is
> destroyed. Lethal damage is an amount of damage greater than or
> equal to a creature's toughness. Regeneration can replace this event.
>
> But now it's getting tricky, as both creatures are on their way to the
> graveyard. My guess is that as the Pale Curtain is itself going to the
> graveyard it's triggered ability can't fire, because ... well here it's
> getting all messy for me and I'd say it's no longer a permanent in play at
> that time.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain has one (1) triggered ability: Bushido 1 I
see no relevance to your question.

Its *replacement* effect will apply to both destructions happening at
that time.

> 2)
>
> This question is about a specific rule:
>
> 310.4a Combat damage is dealt as it was originally assigned even if the
> creature dealing damage is no longer in play, its power has
> changed, or the creature receiving damage has left combat.
>
> Let's setup a scenario for this: Player A has an infamous Sakura-Tribe
> Elder in play and Player B some creature equipped with the also infamous
> Umezawa's Jitte. B attacks, A blocks with the Elder. Damage goes on the
> stack and the Elder is sacrificed.
>
> Umezawa's Jitte
> 2
> Legendary Artifact - Equipment
> Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put two charge counters on
Umezawa's Jitte.
> Remove a charge counter from Umezawa's Jitte: Choose one - Equipped
> creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn; or target creature gets -1/-1 until
> end of turn; or you gain 2 life.
> Equip 2
>
> Now I was pretty sure that the Jitte doesn't get counters this way.. at
> least until I came across the above rule. According to this rule the
> creature receiving damage has left combat, so the combat damage gets
> dealt nevertheless. And as the equipped creature now dealt combat damage
> the triggered ability will trigger.. so either I was wrong all the time
> and the Elder does have to be sacrificed before damage goes on the stack
> or I'm missing something else here.
>
> Thanks for clearing these issues up,
> Frank

You overlooked the following rule:

310.4c If a creature that was supposed to receive combat damage is no
longer in play or is no longer a creature, the damage assigned to it
isn't dealt.

There is no "creature receiving damage", because it isn't a creature
anymore.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Frank Raiser <frank.raiser.doesnt@like.spam.informatik.uni-ulm.de> wrote:
>I have two questions about the timing of triggered abilities:

Okay.

>I have a Samurai of the Pale Curtain in play.
>
>Samurai of the Pale Curtain WW Creature - Fox Samurai
>2/2 Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of
> turn.) / If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the
> game instead.

Okay. Note that its Bushido IS triggered, and its remove-from-game ability
is NOT triggered (there is no 'when', 'whenever', or 'at' in that ability).

>I attack with it and it is blocked by a vanilla 3/3 creature. Combat
>damage goes on the stack and resolves without any further interruptions.

Okay, you've skipped most of a step here. Its Bushido triggered upon
declaration of the block, went on the stack right after declare-blockers
step started, and resolved some time during that step. Thus, by the time
combat damage goes onto the stack, BOTH are 3/3 creatures.

>The question is which of the two creatures - if any - will be removed from
>the game.

Both of them; both put 3 combat damage onto the stack, both get dealt 3 combat
damage, which is lethal, and both get destroyed at the same time by the
state-based effects check right afterwards. AND both have the replacement
effect from the Samurai apply to that "I am going to the graveyard", and get
removed from the game instead. (The replacement effect applies _before_ the
destruction can actually happen, and at that time the Samurai, not yet
destroyed, is in play and has its ability...)

>Here's my take on answering it. Please correct me if I'm wrong there:
>The damage resolves and both creatures are dealt lethal damage. Now 420.5c
>comes in:
>
>420.5c A creature with lethal damage, but greater than 0 toughness, is
>destroyed. Lethal damage is an amount of damage greater than or
>equal to a creature's toughness. Regeneration can replace this event.
>
>But now it's getting tricky, as both creatures are on their way to the
>graveyard.

Please forget you EVER HEARD that phrase. There is no such thing as "on the
way to the graveyard" in Magic. It's a concept that only worked with damage-
prevention step; there is no time at all when either the Samurai or the 3/3
is in play, marked for going to the graveyard, and nothing can stop or change
that. They are either in play and not destroyed or in the graveyard yet ... or
they are in the graveyard (or are in another zone).

>My guess is that as the Pale Curtain is itself going to the
>graveyard it's triggered ability can't fire, because ... well here it's
>getting all messy for me and I'd say it's no longer a permanent in play at
>that time.

Okay. Here's part of your confusion: the Samurai has ONE triggered ability
- its Bushido. NOT TWO. Its second ability is a replacement effect, and has
nothing to do with triggered abilities.

(But even if it were a triggered ability, such as "Whenever a permanent is put
into a graveyard from play, remove that card from the game"? It would still
get to trigger, because 410.10d says leaves-play-triggered abilities are
handled specially: you look BEFORE the leaves-play event to see if the ability
exists and can/will trigger. And before the Samurai leaves play, it's in play
.... and has the ability.)

The Samurai's second ability is a replacement effect, and so gets applied
just BEFORE what it would replace can occur - in this particular case,
the putting-in-graveyard that's part of destroying both creatures. The
replacement effect changes what is about to happen to both of them to "remove
them from the game"... and both end up in the RFG zone, having gone there
simultaneously from in-play.

>This question is about a specific rule:
>
>310.4a Combat damage is dealt as it was originally assigned even if the
>creature dealing damage is no longer in play, its power has
>changed, or the creature receiving damage has left combat.

Right. Note that that last means what it says - the receiving creature does
still have to be in _play_. If it's not an attacker or blocker any more,
that doesn't change whether it will get dealt the damage. (If it's not in
PLAY any more, or isn't a -creature- any more, then the damage can't get
dealt - that's different.)

>Let's setup a scenario for this: Player A has an infamous Sakura-Tribe
>Elder in play and Player B some creature equipped with the also infamous
>Umezawa's Jitte. B attacks, A blocks with the Elder. Damage goes on the
>stack and the Elder is sacrificed.

In response to combat damage.

Then on resolution, the damage FROM the Elder gets dealt to the attacking
creature (first part). The damage FROM the attacking creature tries to get
dealt, but there is no creature there to deal it to, so the damage does not
get dealt. (It is not prevented; it is not 'dealt elsewhere'; it just does
not get dealt.)
Yes, the Elder left combat ... but it also left -play-, and that trumps
leaving combat.

Since the damage from the Jitte-equipped attacker doesn't get dealt at all,
the Jitte does not (and cannot) trigger; no more counters get put on it.

>Now I was pretty sure that the Jitte doesn't get counters this way.. at
>least until I came across the above rule. According to this rule the
>creature receiving damage has left combat, so the combat damage gets
>dealt nevertheless.

Okay, that's where the difference above comes in. The rule above is talking
about if you had _regenerated_ the Elder, then dealt 1 damage to it, all
in response to combat damage; that would end up with the Elder still IN PLAY,
but no longer a blocker. (We don't have a way to do this in response to
combat damage that doesn't involve regenerating, then trying to destroy, it;
False Orders only works during declare-blockers step, before combat damage
goes on the stack at all.) In that case the attacker's damage would still
get dealt to the Elder, even though the Elder is no longer a blocker and is
no longer blocking the attacker. (The attacker is still a blocked creature,
notice.)
If the Elder -leaves play-, then it's no longer a creature when you try to
deal damage to it, and the damage can't get dealt at all. If the Elder is
still in play but no longer a blocker? It still gets dealt the damage.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.