Copy rules question (expert?)

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The problem I had has probably been resolved through Oracle, but I wanted to
ask anyway to see if my grasp of copy rules is
correct. And no this is not a convoluted thought up situation, it happened
recently in a game of mine.

Player A has in play a Volrath's Shapeshifter with a Solemn Simulacrum as the
top card of his graveyard.
Player B plays Copy Artifact, and as it comes into play it copies the Volrath's
Shapeshifter

The card texts:
Volrath's Shapeshifter (Oracle text)
As long as Volrath’s Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your graveyard
is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter
has the full text of that card, and has “2 Mana: Discard a card.” (Volrath's
Shapeshifter has that card's name, mana cost,
color, types, abilities, power and toughness.)
2 Mana: Discard a card.

Volrath's Shapeshifter (Card text)
As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
Volrath's Shapeshifter is a copy of that card, except that
Volrath's Shapeshifter retains its abilities.
2: Choose and discard a card.

Solemn Simulacrum
Artifact Creature
When Solemn Simulacrum comes into play, you may search your library for a basic
land card and put that card into play
tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
When Solemn Simulacrum is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
2/2

Copy Artifact
Enchantment
As Copy Artifact comes into play, you may choose an artifact in play. If you
do, Copy Artifact comes into play as a copy of
that artifact. It’s still an enchantment.

As I understand the current wordings and mechanics, the Copy Artifact would
become

Volrath's Shapeshifter
Enchantment Creature - Shapeshifter
As long as {this} is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
card, {this}
has the full text of that card, and has “2 Mana: Discard a card.” ({this} has
that card's name, mana cost,
color, types, abilities, power and toughness.)
2 Mana: Discard a card.
0/1

with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
creature.
I would not be able to search my library for a basic land, but I would get
'when this comes into play effects' of the top card in my graveyard if it is a
creature.

However, assuming the Original Card Text was the current valid text, would I be
correct in assuming that the Copy Artifact would become

Solemn Simulacrum
Enchantment Artifact Creature
As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
{this} is a copy of that card, except that
{this} retains its abilities.
2: Choose and discard a card.
When {this} comes into play, you may search your library for a basic land card
and put that card into play
tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
When {this} is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
2/2

with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
creature.
Meaning I would be able to search for a land and get any comes-into-play
abilities of the top card of the graveyard if it's a creature, and no matter
what creature it copied, I would get a card if it died.

The way it was resolved, because we didn't know what the actual effect would be
(does the Copy Artifact copy the copied information of the Shapeshifter 'long
enough' to get the c.i.p. ability, or does it look at the owner's graveyard in
time to change back to it's normal function?), we erred on the safe side and
not allowed the searching.

Kind regards,
Stef Focus

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:33:04 +0200, Focus <no@where.else> wrote:
>The problem I had has probably been resolved through Oracle, but I wanted to
>ask anyway to see if my grasp of copy rules is
>correct. And no this is not a convoluted thought up situation, it happened
>recently in a game of mine.

Convoluted situations happen regularly with the copy effects...

>Player A has in play a Volrath's Shapeshifter with a Solemn Simulacrum as the
>top card of his graveyard.

Okay. Stop a moment: VS' effect is NOT a copy effect. (It used to be, and
caused horrible headaches for several deeply twisted reasons when it was.
Now it is not, and now we have NO copy effects generated by static abilities;
all the ones we have are generated by one-shot applications of a resolving
spell/ability OR by one-shot stuff happening 'as something comes into play'.)

The VS has the text of the Simulacrum, plus the extra _ability_ "2: Discard
a card". But it doesn't have it on the copy-effects level, so copy effects
_do not see_ the Simulacrum text, they just see the ordinary VS text.

Now go on...

>Player B plays Copy Artifact, and as it comes into play it copies the
>Volrath's Shapeshifter

The Copy Artifact will come into play as a card whose Oracle text is

Volrath's Shapeshifter 1UU Creature -- Shapeshifter
0/1 As long as ~ is in play and the top card of your graveyard is a creature
card, ~ has the full text of that card, and has "2: Discard a card.". (~ has
that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and toughness.) /
2: Discard a card.

>Volrath's Shapeshifter (Card text)
>As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
>Volrath's Shapeshifter is a copy of that card, except that
>Volrath's Shapeshifter retains its abilities.

This cardtext is fairly outdated; VS doesn't work right as an actual copy
effect, but this was only found out after some years of difficulty trying to
get it TO work as one.

The permanent Copy Artifact becomes will use the VS ability and find it has
the text of whatever creature card is on top of player _B's_ graveyard; if
the top card of player B's graveyard isn't a creature card, the permanent
will just sit there with the VS text. It will also be an enchantment, because
Copy Artifact's copy effect says it retains that type, so it will be an
enchantment creature.

>As I understand the current wordings and mechanics, the Copy Artifact would
>become
>
>Volrath's Shapeshifter [snip]
>
>with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
>creature.

No, if you are player A. Yes, if you are player B. It will be looking at
player _B's_ graveyard, and you did not say which one you were.

>I would not be able to search my library for a basic land, but I would get
>'when this comes into play effects' of the top card in my graveyard if it is a
>creature.

Player B wouldn't be able to, but would get, yes. The Copy Artifact / VS won't
be able to 'see into' player _A's_ graveyard at all, and the VS effect isn't
a copy effect, so the Copy Artifact can't see that the original VS is
currently pretending to be an SS-with-added-draw-a-cardy-goodness.

>However, assuming the Original Card Text was the current valid text, would I
>be correct in assuming that the Copy Artifact would become

Here is one of the problems leading to WHY the change was made. If the VS
were being an SS -at the copy-effect level-, then the Copy Artifact would
ONLY see the "I am an SS with added draw-a-card ability" and would copy
that ... and wouldn't see the underlying VS text at all. You'd get a
permanent that was "permanently" (heh) an SS with an added ability, regardless
of how your graveyard's top card changed. Which is very far from the intent
of copy-this-card effects...

>Solemn Simulacrum
>Enchantment Artifact Creature
*>As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
*>{this} is a copy of that card, except that
*>{this} retains its abilities.
**>2: Choose and discard a card.
>When {this} comes into play, you may search your library for a basic land card
>and put that card into play
>tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
>When {this} is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
>2/2

It would not have the text whose lines I've marked with * or ** at all. It
would have the _ability_ on the ** line - but it wouldn't be _text on the
card_, it would be copied because it was an ability the VS gave itself at
the copy level while it was pretending to be an SS.

>with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
>creature.

Nope. It wouldn't get the text that let it look at your graveyard at all; that
would have been overwritten by the text from the copy effect VS applied to
itself.

>The way it was resolved, because we didn't know what the actual effect would be
>(does the Copy Artifact copy the copied information of the Shapeshifter 'long
>enough' to get the c.i.p. ability, or does it look at the owner's graveyard in
>time to change back to it's normal function?), we erred on the safe side and
>not allowed the searching.

That's good, because the Copy Artifact / VS in fact doesn't look at the
other player's graveyard at all, or "see" that the original VS is currently
thinking it's got the SS text. You get, effectively, "a VS card of your own"
which works the way a VS normally would if you'd put one into play, except
that it's also an enchantment because Copy Artifact says so.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Somewhere, somehow, somewhen David DeLaney said...
>
>On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:33:04 +0200, Focus <no@where.else> wrote:
>>As I understand the current wordings and mechanics, the Copy Artifact would
>>become
>>
>>Volrath's Shapeshifter [snip]
>>
>>with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
>>creature.
>
>No, if you are player A. Yes, if you are player B. It will be looking at
>player _B's_ graveyard, and you did not say which one you were.

To set the record straight: I was player B

>>However, assuming the Original Card Text was the current valid text, would I
>>be correct in assuming that the Copy Artifact would become
>
>Here is one of the problems leading to WHY the change was made. If the VS
>were being an SS -at the copy-effect level-, then the Copy Artifact would
>ONLY see the "I am an SS with added draw-a-card ability" and would copy
>that ... and wouldn't see the underlying VS text at all. You'd get a
>permanent that was "permanently" (heh) an SS with an added ability, regardless
>of how your graveyard's top card changed. Which is very far from the intent
>of copy-this-card effects...
>
>>Solemn Simulacrum
>>Enchantment Artifact Creature
>*>As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
>*>{this} is a copy of that card, except that
>*>{this} retains its abilities.
>**>2: Choose and discard a card.
>>When {this} comes into play, you may search your library for a basic land
card
>>and put that card into play
>>tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
>>When {this} is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
>>2/2
>
>It would not have the text whose lines I've marked with * or ** at all. It
>would have the _ability_ on the ** line - but it wouldn't be _text on the
>card_, it would be copied because it was an ability the VS gave itself at
>the copy level while it was pretending to be an SS.


Okay, the text of the abilities * and ** would not be on the card, But why
would the Copy Artifact only copy the ** ability and not the * ability ?

>>with added abilities and changed p/t if the top card of my graveyard was a
>>creature.
>
>Nope. It wouldn't get the text that let it look at your graveyard at all; that
>would have been overwritten by the text from the copy effect VS applied to
>itself.

It wouldn't get the text from the discard ability (**) too, but it would have
both abilities (* and **) I think, or is the characteristic setting stuff no
longer classified as an (continuous) ability?

Kind regards,
Stef Focus

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Focus <no@where.else> wrote:
>Somewhere, somehow, somewhen David DeLaney said...
>>No, if you are player A. Yes, if you are player B. It will be looking at
>>player _B's_ graveyard, and you did not say which one you were.
>
>To set the record straight: I was player B

Okay.

>>Here is one of the problems leading to WHY the change was made. If the VS
>>were being an SS -at the copy-effect level-, then the Copy Artifact would
>>ONLY see the "I am an SS with added draw-a-card ability" and would copy
>>that ... and wouldn't see the underlying VS text at all. You'd get a
>>permanent that was "permanently" (heh) an SS with an added ability, regardless
>>of how your graveyard's top card changed. Which is very far from the intent
>>of copy-this-card effects...
>>
>>>Solemn Simulacrum
>>>Enchantment Artifact Creature
>>*>As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
>>*>{this} is a copy of that card, except that
>>*>{this} retains its abilities.
>>**>2: Choose and discard a card.
>>>When {this} comes into play, you may search your library for a basic land
>card
>>>and put that card into play
>>>tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
>>>When {this} is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
>>>2/2
>>
>>It would not have the text whose lines I've marked with * or ** at all. It
>>would have the _ability_ on the ** line - but it wouldn't be _text on the
>>card_, it would be copied because it was an ability the VS gave itself at
>>the copy level while it was pretending to be an SS.
>
>Okay, the text of the abilities * and ** would not be on the card, But why
>would the Copy Artifact only copy the ** ability and not the * ability ?

Because in the situation you were describing, where VS _was_ using a copy
effect? The copiable characteristics it gave itself would _overwrite_ the
copiable characteristics it started with. Which includes all the TEXT that
VS itself has. The effect would overlay the SS text on the VS text, covering
it, AND would give the SS an extra ability "2: Draw a card". And because
that -ability- was given by the VS copy effect, it would be part of the
copiable characteristics of the permanent ... whereas the _text_ "2:
Draw a card" printed on the VS would no longer be, because it got overwritten.
The text of the SS would be part of the copiable characteristics. The "As
long as the top card of..." text would not be. See how that works?

The VS would be painted over by SS-ness, except that the effect doing the
painting would also be painting an extra ability the SS doesn't normally
have. Any other copy effect would only see that top painted-on layer, and
wouldn't see the VS text "under" it.

And, again, the above is how it would work if the VS _was_ still a copy
effect. It's not, and these days copy effects DO just see the VS text and
copy it, then apply it on their own and look at _their_ controller's
graveyard etc. etc., acting pretty much just like a 'real' VS would in
their place.

>>Nope. It wouldn't get the text that let it look at your graveyard at all; that
>>would have been overwritten by the text from the copy effect VS applied to
>>itself.
>
>It wouldn't get the text from the discard ability (**) too, but it would have
>both abilities (* and **) I think, or is the characteristic setting stuff no
>longer classified as an (continuous) ability?

Remember, you were asking about "if VS _did_ work as a copy effect". The * and
** lines of text are in the VS' own text. That gets _entirely_ overwritten by
the copy effect (since it doesn't say "except that it keeps its own text too"
or anything like that - compare to Vesuvan Doppelganger or Sakashima the
Impostor or Fork)... and the only reason the "fake SS" would get the discard
ability is that the copy effect says it does. Does that make sense now?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Somewhere, somehow, somewhen David DeLaney said...
>
>Focus <no@where.else> wrote:
>>Somewhere, somehow, somewhen David DeLaney said...
>>>>Solemn Simulacrum
>>>>Enchantment Artifact Creature
>>>*>As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card,
>>>*>{this} is a copy of that card, except that
>>>*>{this} retains its abilities.
>>>**>2: Choose and discard a card.
>>>>When {this} comes into play, you may search your library for a basic land
>>card
>>>>and put that card into play
>>>>tapped. If you do, shuffle your library.
>>>>When {this} is put into a graveyard from play, you may draw a card.
>>>>2/2
>>>
>>>It would not have the text whose lines I've marked with * or ** at all. It
>>>would have the _ability_ on the ** line - but it wouldn't be _text on the
>>>card_, it would be copied because it was an ability the VS gave itself at
>>>the copy level while it was pretending to be an SS.
>>
>>Okay, the text of the abilities * and ** would not be on the card, But why
>>would the Copy Artifact only copy the ** ability and not the * ability ?
>
>Because in the situation you were describing, where VS _was_ using a copy
>effect? The copiable characteristics it gave itself would _overwrite_ the
>copiable characteristics it started with. Which includes all the TEXT that
>VS itself has. The effect would overlay the SS text on the VS text, covering
>it, AND would give the SS an extra ability "2: Draw a card". And because
>that -ability- was given by the VS copy effect, it would be part of the
>copiable characteristics of the permanent ... whereas the _text_ "2:
>Draw a card" printed on the VS would no longer be, because it got overwritten.
>The text of the SS would be part of the copiable characteristics. The "As
>long as the top card of..." text would not be. See how that works?

I understand that the text would not be copied, but the ability would, I just
don't understand, why when it retains it's abilities, it retains the ability
'2: Choose and discard a card.' but does not retain the ability 'As long as the
top card of your graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter is a copy
of that card, except that Volrath's Shapeshifter retains its abilities.'.

They are both abilities, granted by the same (copy) effect and should either
both be copied by CA or both not be copied by CA.
The text of both is not present on the VS that's copying an SS.

>The VS would be painted over by SS-ness, except that the effect doing the
>painting would also be painting an extra ability the SS doesn't normally
>have.
Why does it paint only 1 ability of the 2?

> Any other copy effect would only see that top painted-on layer, and
>wouldn't see the VS text "under" it.
>
>And, again, the above is how it would work if the VS _was_ still a copy
>effect. It's not, and these days copy effects DO just see the VS text and
>copy it, then apply it on their own and look at _their_ controller's
>graveyard etc. etc., acting pretty much just like a 'real' VS would in
>their place.
>
>>>Nope. It wouldn't get the text that let it look at your graveyard at all;
that
>>>would have been overwritten by the text from the copy effect VS applied to
>>>itself.
>>
>>It wouldn't get the text from the discard ability (**) too, but it would have
>>both abilities (* and **) I think, or is the characteristic setting stuff no
>>longer classified as an (continuous) ability?
>
>Remember, you were asking about "if VS _did_ work as a copy effect". The * and
>** lines of text are in the VS' own text. That gets _entirely_ overwritten by
>the copy effect (since it doesn't say "except that it keeps its own text too"
>or anything like that - compare to Vesuvan Doppelganger or Sakashima the
>Impostor or Fork)... and the only reason the "fake SS" would get the discard
>ability is that the copy effect says it does. Does that make sense now?

It doesn't make sense, because the copy effect does not say: and this gains '2:
discard a card', but 'this retains its abilities' which should include the copy
ability. I hope I'm making my point of difficulty clear.

Kind regards,
Stef Focus

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Focus <no@where.else> wrote:
>Somewhere, somehow, somewhen David DeLaney said...
>>Because in the situation you were describing, where VS _was_ using a copy
>>effect? The copiable characteristics it gave itself would _overwrite_ the
>>copiable characteristics it started with. Which includes all the TEXT that
>>VS itself has. The effect would overlay the SS text on the VS text, covering
>>it, AND would give the SS an extra ability "2: Draw a card". And because
>>that -ability- was given by the VS copy effect, it would be part of the
>>copiable characteristics of the permanent ... whereas the _text_ "2:
>>Draw a card" printed on the VS would no longer be, because it got overwritten.
>>The text of the SS would be part of the copiable characteristics. The "As
>>long as the top card of..." text would not be. See how that works?
>
>I understand that the text would not be copied, but the ability would, I just
>don't understand, why when it retains it's abilities, it retains the ability
>'2: Choose and discard a card.' but does not retain the ability 'As long as
>...

Stop. It is not 'retaining' _any_ abilities. The "2: draw a card" ability it
gives itself is unrelated to the "2: draw a card" ability generated from its
text. It happens to be the exact same ability - but it is not 'retaining'
anything at _all_. It's giving itself this ability -again-.

Similarly, in the actual situation, where it's not a copy effect, it just
changes its text? It doesn't "retain" the text "2: draw a card" at all. If
there's an SS on top of your graveyard, it gets all the SS's text, NONE of
its own (right down to its name) ... and gets the additional -ability-
"2: draw a card". Which isn't coming from the _text_ "2: draw a card" that
got overwritten, it's coming from the effect of the "As long as ..." ability
whose text got entirely overwritten.

>They are both abilities, granted by the same (copy) effect and should either
>both be copied by CA or both not be copied by CA.

No. They are both abilities, yes. They are _not_ "both granted by the copy
effect". The "As long as ... " ability would be _making_ the copy effect;
its text would get entirely overwritten. The "As long as ..." ability
would be _making_ the added "2: Draw a card" ability, as part of the
copy effect. The "2: draw a card" ability generated by the TEXT "2: Draw
a card"? Gets overwritten and is nonexistent.

The ability is NOT giving _itself_ to the creature; the wording of the
_original card_ said it retains it abilities. That got fixed right quick. If
it keeps the ability that makes the copy effect, nothing stops that ability
from applying AGAIN, and again, and again, in each new "copy layer" ... giving
you a "tower" of copy effects that literally has no top, and a
continuous-effect evaluation process that can't stop once it starts. That's
a Bad Thing.

It got corrected once in November 1998 (remember, this is while it was still
using a copy effect) but it didn't fix the problem: "As long as the top card of
your graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter is a copy of that
card with this ability and the ability `2: Choose and discard a card' added to
it. Any undefined characteristics are not copied. / 2: Choose and discard a
card'." (this fix stopped it from "retaining" any other abilities it might
somehow have had).

The problem didn't get fixed until 7th Edition (partly because the copy-card
RULES didn't get included in the rulebook until about then): at that point
it became "As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, ~ is a
copy of that card that has "2: Discard a card.". / 2: Discard a card.". This
stopped it from having the ability that gave it the ability to copy the top
card of the graveyard WHILE it was being the copy, and "turned off" the
unbounded regression. But, you'll notice, this still has the problems that
come from it being a copy effect at all, as earlier discussed. Today's wording
simply makes it not BE a copy effect, so that copying it just gets you a
"regular VS", not a "VS being something else and you copy what else it's
being too".

>>The VS would be painted over by SS-ness, except that the effect doing the
>>painting would also be painting an extra ability the SS doesn't normally
>>have.

>Why does it paint only 1 ability of the 2?

Because it says it does. It did not originally say it did, correct - but
trying to have the _copy_ also have the _VS ability_ leads right into an
unbounded regress where it can't STOP copying the top card of the graveyard.
That did get fixed, but not right away ... and the card itself has never
been reprinted, so if you're _LOOKING_ at it you're going to be very confused.

>It doesn't make sense, because the copy effect does not say: and this gains '2:
>discard a card', but 'this retains its abilities' which should include the copy
>ability. I hope I'm making my point of difficulty clear.

Yes, and I had honestly forgotten at first that it had had that wording on
the actual card, because that wording Does Not Work; I was using an analogue
of today's wording, but worded as a copy effect. The wording it got fixed
to for 7th Edition does work, but still gives problems with -copying- a VS.
Today's wording works AND has no problems when you try to copy one.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

There was a recent discussion of "Copy Effect" rules and Volrath's
Shapeshifter.

The quoted Oracle block for Volrath's Shapeshifter was:

>Volrath's Shapeshifter (Oracle text)

>As long as Volrath's Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your
>graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text of
>that card, and has "2 Mana: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has
>that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and
>toughness.)
>
>2 Mana: Discard a card.

I thought the graveyard was an unordered, revealed, zone in Magic.

If such is the case, how is the "top card of your graveyard" phrase
supposed to be interpreted? Any card that I say is on top?

Thanks,
Gene P.

--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:58:22 -0500, Alcore <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>There was a recent discussion of "Copy Effect" rules and Volrath's
>Shapeshifter.
>
>The quoted Oracle block for Volrath's Shapeshifter was:
>
>>Volrath's Shapeshifter (Oracle text)
>
>>As long as Volrath's Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your
>>graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text of
>>that card, and has "2 Mana: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has
>>that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and
>>toughness.)
>>
>>2 Mana: Discard a card.

Right. Note that this isn't a copy effect; it applies in a higher layer and
isn't subject to the copy-effect rules as such.

(Also, whoever typed what you're retyping there almost certainly had it as
"2: Discard a card." both places; you don't need to put the 'mana' word in
there...)

>I thought the graveyard was an unordered, revealed, zone in Magic.

No. It is an _ordered_ revealed zone. It has an order - top to bottom. Several
cards reference "the top card of your graveyard"; one or two reference "the
top creature card of your graveyard", which is the creature card closest to
the top. A couple from Alliances-era and one or two before that care how
many cards are above a given card, or how many creature cards are.

>If such is the case, how is the "top card of your graveyard" phrase
>supposed to be interpreted? Any card that I say is on top?

Nope. Each time a card goes into your graveyard, it goes on the top. Players
may NOT reorder their graveyards at all. (One card, Search for Survivors,
effectively shuffles it, but does so while it has it removed from the game;
several-many cards can remove cards from it, but they leave the remaining
cards, if any, in the same order.)
If more than one card is going into your graveyard at exactly the same
time, you choose how to order them on the top of that graveyard. (This doesn't
mean they're going in at different times; it just means that you can't have
more than one card in the same place in your graveyard order.)

See section 217.4 for the relevant exact rule wordings...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> (Also, whoever typed what you're retyping there almost certainly had it as
> "2: Discard a card." both places; you don't need to put the 'mana' word in
> there...)

Or maybe it was a copy/paste from something like the Gatherer window.
The symbol for 2 mana has alt text of "2 Mana", so that's what you would
get.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <Pine.LNX.4.44.0508251049510.15358-100000@uurth.com> Alcore <alcore@uurth.com> writes:

> I thought the graveyard was an unordered, revealed, zone in Magic.

No. It is ordered.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> (Also, whoever typed what you're retyping there almost certainly had it as
>> "2: Discard a card." both places; you don't need to put the 'mana' word in
>> there...)
>
>Or maybe it was a copy/paste from something like the Gatherer window.
>The symbol for 2 mana has alt text of "2 Mana", so that's what you would get.

Hmph and bleah. When I try it it doesn't paste anything at all where the
mana symbols are supposed to be, so I deduce that once again Bill Gates is
ignoring some standard or other for how Internet Explorer is supposed to
work... But now I know.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, David DeLaney wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:58:22 -0500, Alcore <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>> There was a recent discussion of "Copy Effect" rules and Volrath's
>> Shapeshifter.
>>
>> The quoted Oracle block for Volrath's Shapeshifter was:
>>
>>> Volrath's Shapeshifter (Oracle text)
>>
>>> As long as Volrath's Shapeshifter is in play and the top card of your
>>> graveyard is a creature card, Volrath's Shapeshifter has the full text of
>>> that card, and has "2 Mana: Discard a card." (Volrath's Shapeshifter has
>>> that card's name, mana cost, color, types, abilities, power and
>>> toughness.)
>>>
>>> 2 Mana: Discard a card.
>
> (Also, whoever typed what you're retyping there almost certainly had it as
> "2: Discard a card." both places; you don't need to put the 'mana' word in
> there...)

In gatherer, the alternative text for the mana symbols contains the
word "mana". When copy/pasting the images you end up with the
alt-texts (at least in firefox under linux).

--
David

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
> Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
> >David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> >> (Also, whoever typed what you're retyping there almost certainly had it as
> >> "2: Discard a card." both places; you don't need to put the 'mana' word in
> >> there...)
> >
> >Or maybe it was a copy/paste from something like the Gatherer window.
> >The symbol for 2 mana has alt text of "2 Mana", so that's what you would get.
>
> Hmph and bleah. When I try it it doesn't paste anything at all where the
> mana symbols are supposed to be, so I deduce that once again Bill Gates is
> ignoring some standard or other for how Internet Explorer is supposed to
> work... But now I know.

I have seen it work both ways, using Firefox.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney (90.106% quality rating):
>
> Hmph and bleah. When I try it it doesn't paste anything at all where the
> mana symbols are supposed to be, so I deduce that once again Bill Gates is
> ignoring some standard or other for how Internet Explorer is supposed to
> work... But now I know.

Nah, it's just a nicety of Firefox... I don't think anyone has specified
a standard about copy/pasting from a browser

/joe
--
10% of the American public would pay $5 to see Senator
Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) fight a big mean dog on Pay TV.
86% of all viewers would root for the dog.
100% of women viewers would root for the dog.