Enduring Ideal

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Hi everybody,

I have a couple of questions here regarding Enduring Ideal,
especifically when the epic ability triggers and how the enchantments
come into play. These questions came, in fact, from an Enduring Ideal
vs. Enduring Ideal game!

1) In my turn, I play Enduring Ideal, fetching Form of the Dragon.
During my oponents turn, he plays his Enduring Ideal fetching Ivory
Mask. During my upkeep, is it possible to stack the triggered abilities
such that I take his Ivory Mask using a Confiscate and have the Form
deal five damage to him? I don't think so, as he can't be selected as
target when he still controls the Mask (and he controls it at the
beginning of my upkeep).

2) I get a Confiscate (1) anyway, taking my opponent's Ivory Mask.
During his upkeep, he search for his own Confiscate (2). To regain
control of his Ivory Mask, which permanent should the Confiscate (2)
attach itself to? The Ivory Mask, Confiscate (1) or it does not really
matter?

3) Likewise, during my upkeep, I would like to, errrr..., borrow, his
Ivory Mask again, what permanent should I attach Confiscate (3)? Ivory
Mask, Confiscate (1), Confiscate (2) or does not really matter?

On a another game, my opponent has Memnarch in play. During my upkeep,
he is almost sure I will fetch a Confiscate so, to prevent me from
taking his Memnarch, while the epic ability is on the stack, he
activates Memnarch's second ability, targetting itself. Assuming nothing
else is played, when the epic ability resolves, if I do get Confiscate
taking his Memnarch, will he end up controlling his Memnarch in the end.
Is this correct?

Thanks in advance!

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 06:07:47 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>
>I have a couple of questions here regarding Enduring Ideal,
>especifically when the epic ability triggers and how the enchantments
>come into play. These questions came, in fact, from an Enduring Ideal
>vs. Enduring Ideal game!

Okay.

Enduring Ideal 5WW Sorcery
Search your library for an enchantment card and put it into play. Then shuffle
your library. / Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't play spells. At the
beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic
ability.)

The Epic triggers at the beginning of your upkeep, on each of your turns after
the spell resolves. It puts a copy of the Ideal spell, without the Epic, onto
the stack then, and that spell resolves some time during your upkeep.

Nothing says the enchantment comes into play in any abnormal position or
state, so an Enchantment will come into play untapped and under your
control (since you're the person told to put it into play) and an Aura will
come into play untapped, under your control, and attached to the permanent
you chose that it's legal to attach to (if there is none such, it stays in
your library and you shuffle).

>1) In my turn, I play Enduring Ideal, fetching Form of the Dragon.
>During my oponents turn, he plays his Enduring Ideal fetching Ivory
>Mask. During my upkeep, is it possible to stack the triggered abilities
>such that I take his Ivory Mask using a Confiscate and have the Form
>deal five damage to him? I don't think so, as he can't be selected as
>target when he still controls the Mask (and he controls it at the
>beginning of my upkeep).

He cannot be the target of Form of the Dragon's ability at the time you
would have to pick the target, correct. You can certainly get a Confiscate
and steal his Mask with it - but that doesn't help you -that- turn. (It'll
work on your next turn, unless he gets another Mask on his turn, etc.)

>2) I get a Confiscate (1) anyway, taking my opponent's Ivory Mask.
>During his upkeep, he search for his own Confiscate (2). To regain
>control of his Ivory Mask, which permanent should the Confiscate (2)
>attach itself to? The Ivory Mask, Confiscate (1) or it does not really
>matter?

It does not really matter. If he attaches it straight to the Mask, then the
Mask has two "player Q controls this" effects affecting it, and the later-
timestamped one - his - "wins". If he attaches it to your Confiscate? Then
he gains control of -that-... and because he is now its "you", he gains
control of the Mask that "you control" in the bargain.

>3) Likewise, during my upkeep, I would like to, errrr..., borrow, his
>Ivory Mask again, what permanent should I attach Confiscate (3)? Ivory
>Mask, Confiscate (1), Confiscate (2) or does not really matter?

Here it does matter. Attaching it to the Mask overwrites any earlier
Confiscates; attaching it to his Confiscate (2) will always steal it back
for you by an extension of the above logic, whichever thing he chose to do.
And if he attached C2 to C1, then your attaching C3 to C1 will "overwrite"
his C2 in much the same way as his attaching C2 to the Mask would "overwrite"
the C1 effect. But if he attached C2 straight to the Mask? Then you do NOT
want to attach C3 to C1, because C1's effect is already papered over by C2's,
so in _that_ case changing who controls C1 is now irrelevant to who controls
the Mask, because C2 has already overridden C1. (...if you follow that,
anyway)

>On a another game, my opponent has Memnarch in play. During my upkeep,
>he is almost sure I will fetch a Confiscate so, to prevent me from
>taking his Memnarch, while the epic ability is on the stack, he
>activates Memnarch's second ability, targetting itself. Assuming nothing
>else is played, when the epic ability resolves, if I do get Confiscate
>taking his Memnarch, will he end up controlling his Memnarch in the end.
>Is this correct?

This is not correct. (I'm assuming here he has already turned his Memnarch
into an artifact with the FIRST ability, which can be done easily, as long
as it -resolves- before the -announcement- of the second ability.) His
Memnarch's ability resolves, making a "he controls this" effect timestamped
then. After that, your Epic spell resolves, fetching a Confiscate and putting
it into play on his Memnarch. The Confiscate's static ability's continuous
"you control this" effect is timestamped when the CONFISCATE came into play...
which is AFTER the Memnarch effect resolved. So the Confiscate overwrites
who controls it, and you get it.

(And he's not able to stack things so that the Memnarch ability somehow goes
"under" the Epic spell on the stack, making it resolve later - nobody has
priority at all BEFORE the "at the beginning of your upkeep" abilities go
onto the stack as upkeep starts. He can respond to them, but that won't stop
your Confiscate from later appearing and stealing the Memnarch; what he
CAN'T do is wait until after you Confiscate it and then try to use its
ability ... because he won't control it any more.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
> This is not correct. (I'm assuming here he has already turned his Memnarch
> into an artifact with the FIRST ability, which can be done easily, as long
> as it -resolves- before the -announcement- of the second ability.

Memnarch is already an artifact.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:37:57 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> wrote:
>One of the voices in my head - or was it David DeLaney? - just said...
>> This is not correct. (I'm assuming here he has already turned his Memnarch
>> into an artifact with the FIRST ability, which can be done easily, as long
>> as it -resolves- before the -announcement- of the second ability.
>
>Memnarch is already an artifact.

Okay, I didn't Read The Card Fully, I guess. I was assuming, somehow, it was
a blue creature, rather than an artifact creature with two fairly blue-natured
abilities. My fault.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.