Choker and shoal

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Greetings,

I have a few question I hope someone can answer. My terminology will be
slightly unprecise so please be patient.
The first one regards Jinxed Choker

Card Name: Jinxed Choker
Cost: 3
Type: Artifact
Pow/Tgh:
Rules Text: At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control
of Jinxed Choker and puts a charge counter on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Choker deals
damage to you equal to the number of charge counters
on it.
3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove
one from it.


So, when my opponent gets the Choker, can he remove counters in his end of
turn?
And at the beginning of the upkeep if the player with the JC removes a
counter after the ability goes on the stack?
I.e. the JC has 2 counters and the controller removes one after the ability
went on stack, does he get 1 dmg?

Next there is the painland and Shining Shoal situation.
A player has, say, three lands on of which is Aadarkar Wastes. He taps three
mana paining himself to play Shining Shoal.
The idea is to prevent the damage and driect it to another creature, say a
Genju animated mountain. Does that work?


Thanx in advance,

G.

 

[RisseR]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Let's see: Yes, Yes, No.

In more detail:
Choker:
If your opponent has the choker, and it's the end of her turn, the
choker's donate/add-a-counter ability goes on the stack, at which
point, your opponent could remove a counter before you get it.

But that would be silly, because they'd only be helping you.

If in fact, you were asking if she could remove a counter at the end of
YOUR turn, after you've decided she's getting the choker, to help keep
herself from taking damage at the beginning of HER turn, let's see...
- The donate/add-a-counter ability goes on the stack.
- Your opponent can't remove a counter yet because she doesn't control
it.
- The ability resolves, she gains control and puts a counter on it.
- Now priority goes around again, at which point she has an opportunity
to spend mana to remove counters, if she wants.
- Once everyone passes and your turn is over, (let's assume it's a
two-person duel), she starts her turn.
- She untaps.
- She starts her upkeep phase, at which point she puts the "At the
beginning of your upkeep" triggered ability on the stack.
- She now has the opportunity to respond to that ability by removing
counters.
- Once everyone is done reacting, and they all pass, the ability
resolves, at which point it counts the number of counters and deals
that much damage to the owner.

I believe it counts the number when it resolves, but let me see if I
can find the rule to back that up. Ah, here we are:
***
413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
number of creatures in play), the answer is determined only once, when
the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information of a
specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a specific
card in the stated zone [...]
***

So, there you go.

Shining Shoal:
First, the cards:
***
Adarkar Wastes
Land
Ice Age Rare
- T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
- T: Add W or U to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to
you.
***
Shining Shoal {XWW}
Instant - Arcane
Betrayers of Kamigawa Rare
- You may remove a white card with converted mana cost X in your hand
from the game rather than pay Shining Shoal's mana cost.
- The next X damage that a source of your choice would deal to you or a
creature you control this turn is dealt to target creature or player
instead.
***
This one's tricky.
Here's how it plays out:
- You tap your Adarkar Wastes for white mana to play the Shoal.
- It's a mana ability, so it doesn't go onto the stack. It resolves
immediately, pinging you with a point of damage.

Yeah, see, you can't even get the Shoal cast in time. In fact, there's
not much you can really do, unless you've got some sort of "protection
from Lands" or something, which I don't think exists. Or, if you've
got Pariah or a creature with a Pariah-like ability already in play,
that would redirect the damage.

Da Rules:
***
408.2e Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability produces
both mana and another effect, both the mana and the other effect happen
immediately. [...]
***

So, nope, you can't prevent or redirect that damage as you're casting
Shining Shoal.

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:56:11 +0200, Griffis <griffis.nospam@net.hr> wrote:
>Jinxed Choker 3 Artifact
> At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control of ~ and puts a charge
> counter on it. / At the beginning of your upkeep, ~ deals damage to you equal
> to the number of charge counters on it. / 3: Put a charge counter on ~ or
> remove one from it.
>
>So, when my opponent gets the Choker, can he remove counters in his end of
>turn?

Yes. The end-of-turn step in End phase does not end immediately after any
given triggered ability resolves; like other steps, it has to have both/all
players pass in succession while the stack is empty. This means everyone gets
at least one chance to do stuff during that step after this ability resolves,
and he can use the remove-counters ability as many times as he likes (and can
pay for) then.

>And at the beginning of the upkeep if the player with the JC removes a
>counter after the ability goes on the stack?

Not sure of the actual question here. Yes, its controller during that upkeep
can do this; the second ability doesn't count counters until it resols. It
in no way "fixes the amount of counters on the thing on announcement", or
anything like that. Removing counters in response to the second ability is
perfectly possible.

Note, of course, that only whoever currently -controls- the Choker can play
the ability. So you can put counters -onto- it in response to the first
ability, before it gets taken away from you, as well...

>I.e. the JC has 2 counters and the controller removes one after the ability
>went on stack, does he get 1 dmg?

Yes; it counts counters-on-Choker only on resolution.

>Next there is the painland and Shining Shoal situation.
>A player has, say, three lands on of which is Aadarkar Wastes. He taps three
>mana paining himself to play Shining Shoal.

"Adarkar"

All the painlands (except City of Brass) have their damage dealt as -part of-
the mana ability's effect. That means that any damage-prevention/redirection
you want to use to prevent that damage, or make it be dealt Elsewhere, has to
be in place already _before_ you tap the land for mana. In particular, a
spell or ability that you're planning to pay for with that mana will be
resolving long after you've taken the damage.

>The idea is to prevent the damage and driect it to another creature, say a
>Genju animated mountain. Does that work?

No. The damage does not wait around in some unspecified place until the spell
which the mana paid for resolves. The damage is dealt, for just about all the
painlands, right after you get the mana, while the mana ability is still
resolving... and if you're getting the mana to pay for a Shoal, you're
_announcing_ the Shoal at the time (or you haven't even started announcing it).
It's nowhere near resolving and setting up the replacement effect that would
send that damage elsewhere. You can certainly choose the Adarkar Wastes as
a source of damage, for spells/abilities that want you do to so - but the
shield doesn't -start- preventing/redirecting damage until the spell or
ability resolves. Choosing the Wastes for the Shoal's source won't help you
against any damage the Wastes has dealt -before- the Shoal can resolve.

What you'd need to do is get the mana for the Shoal from somewhere else, have
it resolve picking the Wastes as the source, _then_ tap the Wastes for mana
and get the damage redirected, and use that mana on something else. That plan
works fine...

Dave
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