Iridescent Angel, Animate Dead, Clone

Slugger

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Hi there.

I've recently been playing with Iridescent and Pristine Angels...


Iridescent Angel
Card Type:
Creature ‹ Angel
P/T:
4/4
Rules Text (Oracle):
Flying, protection from all colors

I realize the text for animate dead has changed over the years so am I
able to enchant a dead Iridescent Angel? I'm under the impression that
I am, since the dead creature is not in play.

Also is it possible to clone an Iridescent Angel?
I assume it is because you aren't actually targetting the angel but
using it for the clone reflection.

Thanks
 
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Slugger <upyer@bumbum.com> wrote in news:190920051515484414%
upyer@bumbum.com:

> Hi there.
>
> I've recently been playing with Iridescent and Pristine Angels...
>
>
> Iridescent Angel
> Card Type:
> Creature ‹ Angel
> P/T:
> 4/4
> Rules Text (Oracle):
> Flying, protection from all colors
>
> I realize the text for animate dead has changed over the years so am I
> able to enchant a dead Iridescent Angel? I'm under the impression that
> I am, since the dead creature is not in play.
>
> Also is it possible to clone an Iridescent Angel?
> I assume it is because you aren't actually targetting the angel but
> using it for the clone reflection.
>
> Thanks
>
From Gatherer:

Animate Dead
1B
Enchantment
When Animate Dead comes into play, if it’s in play, it becomes an Aura
with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into
play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can’t be
regenerated.

The way I see it, Animate Dead targets an Iridescent Angel in the
graveyard just fine (since it's not in play and therefore doesn't have
protection from all colors). Iridescent Angel comes into play, Animate
Dead attaches to it, and then, when the spell is done resolving, state
based effects check before handing priority off to a player. These kick
the Animate Dead off (because she now _does_ have protection from black,
among others, and can't be enchanted by a black enchantment) and both
creature and enchantment head off to their respective graveyards. Net
result, 2 mana spent, 1 card put in your discard pile - not all that
useful.

Clone
3U
Creature — Shapeshifter
0/0
As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.

Here I assume the Iridescent Angel is in play. You're right, Clone isn't
Damaging, Enchanting/Equipping, Blocking, or Targetting the Angel, so
protection doesn't stop it from copying it.
 

Maz

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>
> I realize the text for animate dead has changed over the years so am I
> able to enchant a dead Iridescent Angel? I'm under the impression that
> I am, since the dead creature is not in play.

A creature card (creatures exist only in play) in the graveyard doesn't
have any protection, so it's a legal target.
But as soon as animate dead's triggered ability turns it into an aura
(with enchant creature) it will enchant an illegal permanent an thus
fall off.
=> Angel and Animate dead go to the graveyard

> Also is it possible to clone an Iridescent Angel?
> I assume it is because you aren't actually targetting the angel but
> using it for the clone reflection.
>
> Thanks

Clone isn't targeted so that works fine.
 

RisseR

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***
Animate Dead {1B}
Enchantment
A/B/U Uncommon
- When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an
Aura with 'enchant creature'. Put target creature card from a graveyard
into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
- Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
- When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't
be regenerated.
***

Okay, Animate Dead got real weird, but the basic gist of it is, it
starts life as a regular enchantment, and after coming into play, you
fetch a creature and attach the Animate Dead to it, at which point it
turns into a regular enchant creature Aura.

There are a couple of questions when dealing with an Animate Dead on an
Iridescent Angel. First, can you target the Angel to pull her out of
the graveyard. Second, can you put the Aura on the Angel and, third,
will the Aura stay on the Angel. I'm pretty sure the answers to #1 and
#2 are yes and the answer to #3 is no, but let me see if I can get some
rules to back me up.

***
502.7a Protection is a static ability[...]
502.7b A permanent with protection can't be targeted by spells with the
stated quality and can't be targeted by abilities from a source with
the stated quality.
***

So, it's a static ability and a permanent with protection can't be
targeted by the offending source. The thing is, a card in the
graveyard isn't a permanent, though they can have static abilities (for
example, Flashback).

Let's see what it says about static abilities:
***
405.1. [...] Such abilities apply only while the ability is on a
permanent in play, unless the ability is covered by rule 402.8 or rule
402.9.
***
402.8. Abilities function only while the permanent with the ability is
in play unless the ability is a characteristic-setting ability that
sets type, subtype, supertype, or color; an ability of an instant or
sorcery; an additional cost; an alternative cost; or a play
restriction. Abilities can also function in other zones if they state
otherwise or if the ability can only trigger or be played in a zone
other than the in-play zone. An ability whose cost or effect specifies
that it moves the object it's on out of a particular zone functions
only in that zone.
***

Whew, that's a long list, but I don't think that Protection falls under
any of that, except maybe "play restriction". I'm not sure what that
is exactly, but I think it's this:
***
401.5. Any object can have static abilities that apply while the object
is in a zone from which it can be played. These include restrictions on
playing the object and abilities that allow the object to be played at
a time that it otherwise could not or in a manner that it otherwise
could not.
***
So, that's not it.

That all being said, it doesn't look like Protection works in the
graveyard, so you can target the Angel in the graveyard.

Once it's in play, you can attach the Aura, because protection only
prevents Targeting, not Attaching. (I'm not sure about this actually,
as I couldn't find anything that spells it out specifically, but in the
end the result is the same.)

Unfortunately, directly after that, as a state-based effect, the Aura
pops off the Angel, as the angel, with Protection from Black (all
colors) can't be enchanted by it, and is put into the graveyard.
***
420.5d An Aura that enchants an illegal or nonexistent permanent is put
into its owner's graveyard.
***

Of course, that counts as leaving play, so the leaves-play trigger goes
on the stack. Very quickly you have time to sac the Angel to pay some
cost or something in response. Otherwise, the trigger resolves and the
Angel is put back into the graveyard.


As for the Clone:
***
Clone {3U}
Creature - Shapeshifter 0/0
A/B/U Uncommon
- As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you
do, Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
***

Since you are choosing, not targeting, you can choose the Iridescent
Angel and Clone it.

Enjoy,
Peter
 
G

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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:52:00 GMT, Dan Bressler <noteven@spamtrap.net>
wrote:

>Slugger <upyer@bumbum.com> wrote in news:190920051515484414%
>upyer@bumbum.com:
>
>> Hi there.
>>
>> I've recently been playing with Iridescent and Pristine Angels...
>>
>>
>> Iridescent Angel
>> Card Type:
>> Creature ‹ Angel
>> P/T:
>> 4/4
>> Rules Text (Oracle):
>> Flying, protection from all colors
>>
>> I realize the text for animate dead has changed over the years so am I
>> able to enchant a dead Iridescent Angel? I'm under the impression that
>> I am, since the dead creature is not in play.
>>
>> Also is it possible to clone an Iridescent Angel?
>> I assume it is because you aren't actually targetting the angel but
>> using it for the clone reflection.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>From Gatherer:
>
>Animate Dead
>1B
>Enchantment
>When Animate Dead comes into play, if it’s in play, it becomes an Aura
>with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into
>play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
>Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
>When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can’t be
>regenerated.
>
>The way I see it, Animate Dead targets an Iridescent Angel in the
>graveyard just fine (since it's not in play and therefore doesn't have
>protection from all colors). Iridescent Angel comes into play, Animate
>Dead attaches to it, and then, when the spell is done resolving, state
>based effects check before handing priority off to a player. These kick
>the Animate Dead off (because she now _does_ have protection from black,
>among others, and can't be enchanted by a black enchantment) and both
>creature and enchantment head off to their respective graveyards. Net
>result, 2 mana spent, 1 card put in your discard pile - not all that
>useful.
>
>Clone
>3U
>Creature — Shapeshifter
>0/0
>As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
>Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
>
>Here I assume the Iridescent Angel is in play. You're right, Clone isn't
>Damaging, Enchanting/Equipping, Blocking, or Targetting the Angel, so
>protection doesn't stop it from copying it.

Wow... I didn't realize that Animate Dead's leaving play *destroyed*
the creature. I always thought it was a sacrifice. Did it used to
be? Now it looks like you could animate an indestructible creature
and not have to worry about the animate dead falling off, because
indestructible creature wouldn't get destroyed...

--Rick
 

RisseR

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If I play a Needlebug with a Ronin Warclub equipping a Grizzly Bears,
does the Club get attached to the 'bug, then fall off? Or does it stay
on the Bears?

***
Needlebug {4}
Artifact Creature - Insect 2/2
Mirrodin Uncommon
"- Protection from artifacts
- You may play Needlebug any time you could play an instant."
***
Ronin Warclub {3}
Artifact - Equipment
Betrayers of Kamigawa Uncommon
- Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
- Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
Warclub to that creature.
- Equip 5 (5: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery.)
***

My initial feeling is that it hits the 'bug, then falls off, but again,
I can't find quite the rule to validate or invalidate this conclusion.

Just wondering,
Peter
 
G

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Slugger <u...@bumbum.com> wrote:

:I've recently been playing with Iridescent and Pristine Angels...

:Iridescent Angel Creature - Angel
:4/4 Flying, protection from all colors

:I realize the text for animate dead has changed over the years so am I
:able to enchant a dead Iridescent Angel? I'm under the impression that
:I am, since the dead creature is not in play.

You are able to target the card in the graveyard with the Animate Dead
triggered ability, yes.

Animate Dead 1B Enchantment
When ~ comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant
creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your
control and attach ~ to it. / Enchanted creature gets -1/-0. / When ~ leaves
play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Animate Dead will put itself into play, turn itself into an Aura with
enchant creature, pull the Angel from the graveyard into play, then attach
itself to the Angel.

However: once it's in play, the Angel's protection from black is now "on"...
so the Animate Dead finds it's illegally attached. (This is about the ONLY
way to get an Aura to attach itself to something it can't be attached to
- you can't move it there, can't cast the Aura spell with the illegal thing
as the target, and can't drop it onto the something from some other zone.)
So right after all this, a state-based effect puts the Animate Dead into your
graveyard... triggering its -last- ability. And a bit later, that ability
resolves and destroys-no-regeneration the Angel. Oops.

End result: Animate Dead in your graveyard, Angel in owner's graveyard.
Things that would trigger off the enchantment, or the Angel, coming into play
or leaving play get to do so, since both of them did both of those.

:Also is it possible to clone an Iridescent Angel?

Sure:

Clone 3U Creature -- Shapeshifter
0/0 As ~ comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do, ~
comes into play as a copy of that creature.

:I assume it is because you aren't actually targetting the angel but
:using it for the clone reflection.

Correct, modulo terminology: nothing about what Clone does targets, enchants or
equips, blocks, or damages the creature, so protection from blue can't help
against what Clone is doing.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kun...@w-link.net> wrote:

>>Here I assume the Iridescent Angel is in play. You're right, Clone isn't
>>Damaging, Enchanting/Equipping, Blocking, or Targetting the Angel, so
>>protection doesn't stop it from copying it.

>Wow... I didn't realize that Animate Dead's leaving play *destroyed*
>the creature. I always thought it was a sacrifice. Did it used to
>be? Now it looks like you could animate an indestructible creature
>and not have to worry about the animate dead falling off, because
>indestructible creature wouldn't get destroyed...

You could indeed. It's been destroy-no-regenerate since we've had an Oracle
(5th Edition), but earlier printings had it variously "target creature is
returned to its owner's graveyard", "bury the creature in its owner's
graveyard", and "bury the creature". So it wasn't a sacrifice - but burial
_did_ affect Consecrated lands, back when burial was different from
destruction. These days, you're correct that destroy-no-regenerate doesn't
do much other than tickling to indestructible permanents.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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"Risser" <knucklehead...@yahoo.com> writes:

:That all being said, it doesn't look like Protection works in the
:graveyard, so you can target the Angel in the graveyard.

Correct. The Angel doesn't say its protection works elsewhere, and it CAN work
fine in play, and it's not one of the special sorts of characteristic-setting
ability, so it's not "on" in the graveyard.

:Once it's in play, you can attach the Aura, because protection only
:prevents Targeting, not Attaching. (I'm not sure about this actually,
:as I couldn't find anything that spells it out specifically, but in the
:end the result is the same.)

Well, this is a complex little loophole here. Protection doesn't prevent
attaching, no. 212.2g says Equipment can't legally be attached to a
noncreature; 212.4d notes that what an Aura can be attached to is restricted
by its enchant keyword(s). 502.7c says that the creature can't be enchanted by
the Aura, and that it will fall off if it finds it's attached anyway. The
_Glossary_ says it would stay where it is - but we don't have a rule that
confirms this. We do know that you can't target the Angel with an Aura spell
that has a color - 212.4e; the same rule says you can't put one into play
by other means and have it show up attached to the Angel, and that you can't
move one already in play onto the Angel. But: what Animate Dead is doing isn't
actually _any_ of these - it's turning itself from a nonAura already in play
_into_ an Aura in play and attaching itself to the Angel in the same move
- the card tells you to attach it to that creature, and if you look closely
212.4e also has an exception for ordinary Auras coming into play where the
player is -told- what to attach it to - such as Hakim,_Loreweaver does.
So, as far as I know, it's still the case that the Animate Dead hops onto
the Angel, then gets pulled off by state-based effects a moment later,
resulting in the Angel's death. (And, also as far as I know, that's an
answer preferable to "the Animate Dead never gets put onto the Angel at all,
so the Angel stays in play after the Animate Dead goes to the graveyard for
being an Aura not attached to anything" for game-balance reasons... which may
be why the tiny loophole is still there.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 

Maz

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> My initial feeling is that it hits the 'bug, then falls off, but again,
> I can't find quite the rule to validate or invalidate this conclusion.

You're right. The warclub has a triggered ability which doesn't target
needlbug but it will fall off as soon as it gets attached to it.

502.7d A permanent with protection can't be equipped by Equipment that
have the stated quality. Such an Equipment becomes unattached from that
permanent, but remains in play. (See rule 420, "State-Based Effects.")
 
G

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Risser <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> If I play a Needlebug with a Ronin Warclub equipping a Grizzly Bears,
> does the Club get attached to the 'bug, then fall off? Or does it stay
> on the Bears?
>
> ***
> Needlebug {4}
> Artifact Creature - Insect 2/2
> Mirrodin Uncommon
> "- Protection from artifacts
> - You may play Needlebug any time you could play an instant."
> ***
> Ronin Warclub {3}
> Artifact - Equipment
> Betrayers of Kamigawa Uncommon
> - Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
> - Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
> Warclub to that creature.
> - Equip 5 (5: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
> sorcery.)
> ***
>
> My initial feeling is that it hits the 'bug, then falls off, but again,
> I can't find quite the rule to validate or invalidate this conclusion.

No, it doesn't become attached to the Needlebug at all. It stays where
it is (on the Grizzly Bears).

Attach
To attach an Aura or Equipment to a permanent means to take it from
where it currently is and put it onto that permanent. If the Aura or
Equipment no longer exists or the object it will move onto is no longer
in the correct zone when the effect would attach it, nothing happens.
Similarly, an Aura or Equipment can't be attached a permanent it
couldn't enchant or equip; the Aura or Equipment stays where it is.
Attaching an Aura in play to a different permanent causes the
Aura to receive a new timestamp. Nothing else about the Aura changes.
The Aura never left play, so no comes-into-play or leaves-play triggered
abilities will trigger. If an ability of the moved Aura affecting
"enchanted [permanent]" was on the stack when the Aura moved, it will
affect the new enchanted permanent when it resolves, not the old one.
The same is true for moved Equipment.


--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W