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Jinxed Choker

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Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:05:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jinxed Choker
3
Artifact
At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control of Jinxed Choker
and puts a charge counter on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Choker deals damage to you equal
to the number of charge counters on it.
3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.

When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?

413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
illegal or impossible.

416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
much as possible.


--
Martin

More about : jinxed choker

Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:05:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chances are suprisingly good that Martin Golm was not wearing pants when
he or she said:
> Jinxed Choker
> 3
> Artifact
> At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control of Jinxed Choker
> and puts a charge counter on it.
> At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Choker deals damage to you equal
> to the number of charge counters on it.
> 3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.
>
> When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
> its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
> sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?
>
> 413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
> as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
> while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
> illegal or impossible.
>
> 416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
> much as possible.

413.2c clearly says you can't make a choice that's impossible. So you
would be forced to add a counter in this case; you can't choose to
remove one. 416.3 merely says what happens if, despite this and other
similar rules, an impossible instruction comes up anyway.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:53:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> wrote:

> 413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
> as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
> while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
> illegal or impossible.

Can you remove a counter from the Choker? No, so you can't choose to
remove one.

> 416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
> much as possible.

This happens if an effect tries to do something that can't be done
without giving you a choice (i.e. "Each player sacrifices a creature"
when a player does not control any creatures). This still does not allow
you to make impossible choices.

That said, you CAN use it as a mana sink by placing a counter, removing
it, placing it again, removing it again and so on and so on. Just make
sure you remove it with the last activation if you don't want any
counters on it.

- ∞
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Anonymous
September 20, 2005 7:32:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Martin Golm <g...@gmx.de> wrote:

:3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.

:When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
:its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
:sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?

We're actually discussing this behind the scenes right now. I'm currently
of the -opinion- that you can -try- removing a counter, but Nothing Happens
if you do - much like you can -try- to tap something with a Twiddle that
is already tapped, but Nothing Happens. My opinion may be swayed by others'
arguments, though.

:413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
:as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
:while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
:illegal or impossible.

:416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
:much as possible.

Which, together, seem to make this hinge on whether this is a "choice" or
not. It doesn't -say- the player chooses which to do ... but clearly only
the player is responsible for which of the two ends up getting done, and
there are other "choices" around that don't use the word "choose". And
I don't know if anyone's previously weighed in on whether you can -try- to
remove a counter from a permanent with no counters on it. (It's clear that
you can't _succeed_ in doing so ... so that Hungry Hungry Heifer gets
sacrificed, assuming the Unglued Oracle ever gets its wordings updated so
that HHH reads "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice ~ unless you
remove a counter from a permanent you control" of course. But it's also
clear that you can't successfully tap a tapped permanent - to pay a cost,
for example - but we still allow you to -try- with Twiddle's "tap or untap
target Foo".)
So you could definitely not do so if this were part of a cost ... and if
something asked "If you do (remove a counter), ..." it would get the answer
"no". But the particular situation here isn't Clear yet.

I will keep the group updated on whatever falls out from this.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 10:25:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>Martin Golm <g...@gmx.de> wrote:
>:3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.
>
>:When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
>:its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
>:sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?
>
>We're actually discussing this behind the scenes right now. I'm currently
>of the -opinion- that you can -try- removing a counter, but Nothing Happens
>if you do - much like you can -try- to tap something with a Twiddle that
>is already tapped, but Nothing Happens. My opinion may be swayed by others'
>arguments, though.

The Ravnica FAQ has appeared, and it says you can't choose to remove one
that isn't there. So that's the current answer. (I have a couple of issues
with other things in that FAQ, but those are different questions and
different discussions...)

>I will keep the group updated on whatever falls out from this.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
!