Jinxed Choker

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jinxed Choker
3
Artifact
At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control of Jinxed Choker
and puts a charge counter on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Choker deals damage to you equal
to the number of charge counters on it.
3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.

When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?

413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
illegal or impossible.

416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
much as possible.


--
Martin
4 answers Last reply
More about jinxed choker
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Chances are suprisingly good that Martin Golm was not wearing pants when
    he or she said:
    > Jinxed Choker
    > 3
    > Artifact
    > At the end of your turn, target opponent gains control of Jinxed Choker
    > and puts a charge counter on it.
    > At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Choker deals damage to you equal
    > to the number of charge counters on it.
    > 3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.
    >
    > When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
    > its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
    > sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?
    >
    > 413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
    > as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
    > while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
    > illegal or impossible.
    >
    > 416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
    > much as possible.

    413.2c clearly says you can't make a choice that's impossible. So you
    would be forced to add a counter in this case; you can't choose to
    remove one. 416.3 merely says what happens if, despite this and other
    similar rules, an impossible instruction comes up anyway.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Martin Golm <golm@gmx.de> wrote:

    > 413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
    > as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
    > while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
    > illegal or impossible.

    Can you remove a counter from the Choker? No, so you can't choose to
    remove one.

    > 416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
    > much as possible.

    This happens if an effect tries to do something that can't be done
    without giving you a choice (i.e. "Each player sacrifices a creature"
    when a player does not control any creatures). This still does not allow
    you to make impossible choices.

    That said, you CAN use it as a mana sink by placing a counter, removing
    it, placing it again, removing it again and so on and so on. Just make
    sure you remove it with the last activation if you don't want any
    counters on it.

    - ∞
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    Martin Golm <g...@gmx.de> wrote:

    :3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.

    :When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
    :its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
    :sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?

    We're actually discussing this behind the scenes right now. I'm currently
    of the -opinion- that you can -try- removing a counter, but Nothing Happens
    if you do - much like you can -try- to tap something with a Twiddle that
    is already tapped, but Nothing Happens. My opinion may be swayed by others'
    arguments, though.

    :413.2c If an effect offers any choices other than choices already made
    :as part of playing the spell or ability, the player announces these
    :while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's
    :illegal or impossible.

    :416.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as
    :much as possible.

    Which, together, seem to make this hinge on whether this is a "choice" or
    not. It doesn't -say- the player chooses which to do ... but clearly only
    the player is responsible for which of the two ends up getting done, and
    there are other "choices" around that don't use the word "choose". And
    I don't know if anyone's previously weighed in on whether you can -try- to
    remove a counter from a permanent with no counters on it. (It's clear that
    you can't _succeed_ in doing so ... so that Hungry Hungry Heifer gets
    sacrificed, assuming the Unglued Oracle ever gets its wordings updated so
    that HHH reads "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice ~ unless you
    remove a counter from a permanent you control" of course. But it's also
    clear that you can't successfully tap a tapped permanent - to pay a cost,
    for example - but we still allow you to -try- with Twiddle's "tap or untap
    target Foo".)
    So you could definitely not do so if this were part of a cost ... and if
    something asked "If you do (remove a counter), ..." it would get the answer
    "no". But the particular situation here isn't Clear yet.

    I will keep the group updated on whatever falls out from this.

    Dave
    --
    \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
    It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
    Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
    http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

    David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
    >Martin Golm <g...@gmx.de> wrote:
    >:3: Put a charge counter on Jinxed Choker or remove one from it.
    >
    >:When there are no charge counters on Jinxed Choker, can I chose to use
    >:its activated ability to remove a charge counter (using it as a mana
    >:sink, for instance)? To be more specific: Does 413.2c or 416.3 apply?
    >
    >We're actually discussing this behind the scenes right now. I'm currently
    >of the -opinion- that you can -try- removing a counter, but Nothing Happens
    >if you do - much like you can -try- to tap something with a Twiddle that
    >is already tapped, but Nothing Happens. My opinion may be swayed by others'
    >arguments, though.

    The Ravnica FAQ has appeared, and it says you can't choose to remove one
    that isn't there. So that's the current answer. (I have a couple of issues
    with other things in that FAQ, but those are different questions and
    different discussions...)

    >I will keep the group updated on whatever falls out from this.

    Dave
    --
    \/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
    It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
    Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
    http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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