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Help with my (Standard) Tooth and Nail deck, please?

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Anonymous
March 7, 2005 8:15:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

OK, this runs well against theme and fun decks, but doesn't seem to
fare as well as expected in tournaments.

It started off as a Cloudpost deck before I got my Tooth and Nails.
I also incorporated as much of Florian Pils Remini deck as I
felt comfortable with. Then a friend traded me his T&N deck so I
could actually pull off the real thing. And finally added a splash
of Kamigawa.

List first then some comments:

4 x Cloudpost
16 x Forest
4 x Plains

1 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Eternal Witness
3 x Traproot Kami
2 x Bringer of the White Dawn
2 x Leonin Abunas
2 x Darksteel Colossus
4 x Duplicant
2 x Platinum Angel

2 x Naturalize
2 x Reap and Sow
2 x Rude Awakening
3 x Sylvan Scrying
3 x Tooth and Nail
1 x Ivory Mask
1 x Darksteel Forge
1 x Door to Nothingness
1 x Mindslaver
1 x Mycosynth Lattice
1 x Planar Portal

Sideboard:
1 x Traproot Kami
2 x Vine Trellis
1 x Darksteel Colossus
2 x Sundering Titan
1 x Naturalize
1 x Reap and Sow
1 x Rude Awakening
1 x Sacred Ground
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Darksteel Forge
1 x Mindslaver

Comments;

Other Versions/Evolution:

My first version didn't have Tooth and "splashed" Red with a full
four Naturalize, Shock, Pyroclasm, and Fireball. Thsi became infamous
as my "Ravager Bane" deck even though I didn't build it with that
intent. It was also jokingly called the "Does Everything" deck and the
"What the !@#$?" deck. No Plains back then.

I used the Lattice to get the Abunas out. Traproot's job was handled
by Vine Trellis back then. I like the extra mana, but Traproot can
drop on turn one and block fliers. I'm thinking of SB'ing the
Traproots and adding the Trelli back to gain speed from turn three
on, but the fliers have been a problem. The other main loss from
the old version is Tower of Fortunes, IIRC. I liked getting the
extra draws, but it's expensive and comes late game. It may go back
in, card advantage is a problem here.

I differ from Pils' version as I don't have the Solemn Simulcrum.
I prefer Naturalize to Oxidize, even though it costs more, as it
takes out enchantments too and our meta-game seems artifact light
except for Ravager decks. Earlier, not enough artifact destruction
was a problem but as Kamigawa becomes more popular it is less so. If
it reverse while Mirrodin is still legal, I may hav eto make room
for Oxidize and/or Wear Away.

Other differences are from the side board. Tel-Jihad Justice
doesn't strike me as better than the above Artifact killers.
Creeping Mold is only worth it if I want LD which hasn't been
too nescessary except against Cloudposts and REap and Sow handles
them usually. Wayfarer's Bauble just seems redundant, and I
generally dislike "one use" permanents. Triskelion and Viridian
Shaman don't impress me and I only have Triskelion anyway. But
see below.

Differences from my friends version consist mainly of dropping
out Triskelion and Mephidross Vampire. Problem being that I misread
the Vampire. Reading it correctly it looks like a solid combo, though
I don't want to splash a third color, so I'd be stuck with using
Tooth to get the Vampires out.

Losses:
My losses with this deck have been to Land Destruction (Including
the incidental version from the Reap and Sows of Tooth decks!),
Unblockables, Big Fliers, Ravager, and Arc Slogger. LD was a danger to
an early version, this version should handle that. Ravager was a
fluke for the earlier version. This version hasn't faced it and
isn't as well equipped for it. I included the Traproots to stall
or hold off fliers and the Sliths are there so I can get a
cheap (relatively) flier myself that can become a real threat also.
But I have no idea how to stop unblockable Ninjas and Arc Slogger
with the exception of getting the Angel or the Lattice out and by
then it's often too late.

Wins:
Deck wins by Colossus Beatdown, Rude Awakening, defensive lock, and
if the lock succeeds, Doorway. Given time to build the lock,
Doorways works suprisingly often. Old version could win with burn
but that was never its intent and I don't think I can find the space
for Red here.

So, any advise on what to add, what to drop, how to improve this?
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 7:37:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

You could use something like Damping matrix to get many deck not working
against you(slogger...ravager...ninjas!)....i can see you don'T have much
cards that will be affected by the matrix...
"Ophidian" <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
Mf2Xd.159659$0u.27591@fed1read04...
> OK, this runs well against theme and fun decks, but doesn't seem to
> fare as well as expected in tournaments.
>
> It started off as a Cloudpost deck before I got my Tooth and Nails.
> I also incorporated as much of Florian Pils Remini deck as I
> felt comfortable with. Then a friend traded me his T&N deck so I
> could actually pull off the real thing. And finally added a splash
> of Kamigawa.
>
> List first then some comments:
>
> 4 x Cloudpost
> 16 x Forest
> 4 x Plains
>
> 1 x Birds of Paradise
> 2 x Eternal Witness
> 3 x Traproot Kami
> 2 x Bringer of the White Dawn
> 2 x Leonin Abunas
> 2 x Darksteel Colossus
> 4 x Duplicant
> 2 x Platinum Angel
>
> 2 x Naturalize
> 2 x Reap and Sow
> 2 x Rude Awakening
> 3 x Sylvan Scrying
> 3 x Tooth and Nail
> 1 x Ivory Mask
> 1 x Darksteel Forge
> 1 x Door to Nothingness
> 1 x Mindslaver
> 1 x Mycosynth Lattice
> 1 x Planar Portal
>
> Sideboard:
> 1 x Traproot Kami
> 2 x Vine Trellis
> 1 x Darksteel Colossus
> 2 x Sundering Titan
> 1 x Naturalize
> 1 x Reap and Sow
> 1 x Rude Awakening
> 1 x Sacred Ground
> 1 x Crucible of Worlds
> 1 x Darksteel Forge
> 1 x Mindslaver
>
> Comments;
>
> Other Versions/Evolution:
>
> My first version didn't have Tooth and "splashed" Red with a full
> four Naturalize, Shock, Pyroclasm, and Fireball. Thsi became infamous as
> my "Ravager Bane" deck even though I didn't build it with that intent. It
> was also jokingly called the "Does Everything" deck and the "What the
> !@#$?" deck. No Plains back then.
>
> I used the Lattice to get the Abunas out. Traproot's job was handled
> by Vine Trellis back then. I like the extra mana, but Traproot can
> drop on turn one and block fliers. I'm thinking of SB'ing the
> Traproots and adding the Trelli back to gain speed from turn three
> on, but the fliers have been a problem. The other main loss from
> the old version is Tower of Fortunes, IIRC. I liked getting the
> extra draws, but it's expensive and comes late game. It may go back
> in, card advantage is a problem here.
>
> I differ from Pils' version as I don't have the Solemn Simulcrum.
> I prefer Naturalize to Oxidize, even though it costs more, as it
> takes out enchantments too and our meta-game seems artifact light
> except for Ravager decks. Earlier, not enough artifact destruction
> was a problem but as Kamigawa becomes more popular it is less so. If
> it reverse while Mirrodin is still legal, I may hav eto make room
> for Oxidize and/or Wear Away.
>
> Other differences are from the side board. Tel-Jihad Justice
> doesn't strike me as better than the above Artifact killers.
> Creeping Mold is only worth it if I want LD which hasn't been
> too nescessary except against Cloudposts and REap and Sow handles
> them usually. Wayfarer's Bauble just seems redundant, and I
> generally dislike "one use" permanents. Triskelion and Viridian
> Shaman don't impress me and I only have Triskelion anyway. But
> see below.
>
> Differences from my friends version consist mainly of dropping
> out Triskelion and Mephidross Vampire. Problem being that I misread
> the Vampire. Reading it correctly it looks like a solid combo, though
> I don't want to splash a third color, so I'd be stuck with using
> Tooth to get the Vampires out.
>
> Losses:
> My losses with this deck have been to Land Destruction (Including
> the incidental version from the Reap and Sows of Tooth decks!),
> Unblockables, Big Fliers, Ravager, and Arc Slogger. LD was a danger to an
> early version, this version should handle that. Ravager was a
> fluke for the earlier version. This version hasn't faced it and
> isn't as well equipped for it. I included the Traproots to stall
> or hold off fliers and the Sliths are there so I can get a
> cheap (relatively) flier myself that can become a real threat also.
> But I have no idea how to stop unblockable Ninjas and Arc Slogger
> with the exception of getting the Angel or the Lattice out and by
> then it's often too late.
>
> Wins:
> Deck wins by Colossus Beatdown, Rude Awakening, defensive lock, and
> if the lock succeeds, Doorway. Given time to build the lock,
> Doorways works suprisingly often. Old version could win with burn
> but that was never its intent and I don't think I can find the space
> for Red here.
>
> So, any advise on what to add, what to drop, how to improve this?
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 8:14:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

"Mjolnir" <dalung007@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZR3Xd.11247$Gn2.1181179@weber.videotron.net...
> You could use something like Damping matrix to get many deck not working
> against you(slogger...ravager...ninjas!)....i can see you don'T have much
> cards that will be affected by the matrix...
Ninjas work wonders under Damping matrix (aside from Higure's
unblockability, Walker of the Secret Ways' "return target ninja" and
Ink-Eyes' regeneration...) as ninjutsu is an activated ability of a
*creature (ninja) card in hand", not of a *creature* (which exists only in
play) and the abilities which trigger when ninjas hit the player are
....well... *triggered* abilities.
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:35:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Mjolnir wrote:

> You could use something like Damping matrix to get many deck not working
> against you(slogger...ravager...ninjas!)....i can see you don'T have much
> cards that will be affected by the matrix...

Good call, thanks.
I'll look into it.
It wipes out my Door to Nothingness, but that sounds like a fair trade
as it also lessens the need for Mycosynth Lattice.
Losing Planar Portal is a little painful.
Losing Mindslaver should be, but I haven't gotten to use it much.
(Opponent needs a "good" setup to really use it against him unless I get
the Bringer/Slaver combo and can do it every turn.)
Heck, I only main decked one any way.

Stopping Slogger and Ravager sounds worth it.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:37:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Arkady Zilberberg wrote:

> "Mjolnir" <dalung007@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ZR3Xd.11247$Gn2.1181179@weber.videotron.net...
>
>>You could use something like Damping matrix to get many deck not working
>>against you(slogger...ravager...ninjas!)....i can see you don'T have much
>>cards that will be affected by the matrix...
>
> Ninjas work wonders under Damping matrix (aside from Higure's
> unblockability, Walker of the Secret Ways' "return target ninja" and
> Ink-Eyes' regeneration...)

I should have been clearer.
Higure IS the problem for me with the Ninja decks.
I did say "unblockable", not "unblocked". ;) 
Thanks for pointing out it will stop Walker also.
She's another problem child, albeit minor.
March 8, 2005 5:41:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

"Ophidian" <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Mf2Xd.159659$0u.27591@fed1read04...
> OK, this runs well against theme and fun decks, but doesn't seem to
> fare as well as expected in tournaments.
>
> It started off as a Cloudpost deck before I got my Tooth and Nails.
> I also incorporated as much of Florian Pils Remini deck as I
> felt comfortable with. Then a friend traded me his T&N deck so I
> could actually pull off the real thing. And finally added a splash
> of Kamigawa.

Could you describe that deck please? I'm not as familir with the tournament
scene. I prefer to play for fun -- though I like a well-tuned deck.

> List first then some comments:
>
> 4 x Cloudpost
> 16 x Forest
> 4 x Plains
>
> 1 x Birds of Paradise
> 2 x Eternal Witness
> 3 x Traproot Kami
> 2 x Bringer of the White Dawn
> 2 x Leonin Abunas
> 2 x Darksteel Colossus
> 4 x Duplicant
> 2 x Platinum Angel
>
> 2 x Naturalize
> 2 x Reap and Sow
> 2 x Rude Awakening
> 3 x Sylvan Scrying
> 3 x Tooth and Nail
> 1 x Ivory Mask
> 1 x Darksteel Forge
> 1 x Door to Nothingness
> 1 x Mindslaver
> 1 x Mycosynth Lattice
> 1 x Planar Portal
>
> Sideboard:
> 1 x Traproot Kami
> 2 x Vine Trellis
> 1 x Darksteel Colossus
> 2 x Sundering Titan
> 1 x Naturalize
> 1 x Reap and Sow
> 1 x Rude Awakening
> 1 x Sacred Ground
> 1 x Crucible of Worlds
> 1 x Darksteel Forge
> 1 x Mindslaver
>
> Comments;
>
> Other Versions/Evolution:
>
> My first version didn't have Tooth and "splashed" Red with a full
> four Naturalize, Shock, Pyroclasm, and Fireball. Thsi became infamous
> as my "Ravager Bane" deck even though I didn't build it with that
> intent. It was also jokingly called the "Does Everything" deck and the
> "What the !@#$?" deck. No Plains back then.
>
> I used the Lattice to get the Abunas out. Traproot's job was handled
> by Vine Trellis back then. I like the extra mana, but Traproot can
> drop on turn one and block fliers. I'm thinking of SB'ing the
> Traproots and adding the Trelli back to gain speed from turn three
> on, but the fliers have been a problem. The other main loss from
> the old version is Tower of Fortunes, IIRC. I liked getting the
> extra draws, but it's expensive and comes late game. It may go back
> in, card advantage is a problem here.

Vine Trellis could be an idea ... I think that the Elder might be something
to try out.

> I differ from Pils' version as I don't have the Solemn Simulcrum.
> I prefer Naturalize to Oxidize, even though it costs more, as it
> takes out enchantments too and our meta-game seems artifact light
> except for Ravager decks. Earlier, not enough artifact destruction
> was a problem but as Kamigawa becomes more popular it is less so. If
> it reverse while Mirrodin is still legal, I may hav eto make room
> for Oxidize and/or Wear Away.
>
> Other differences are from the side board. Tel-Jihad Justice
> doesn't strike me as better than the above Artifact killers.
> Creeping Mold is only worth it if I want LD which hasn't been
> too nescessary except against Cloudposts and REap and Sow handles
> them usually. Wayfarer's Bauble just seems redundant, and I
> generally dislike "one use" permanents. Triskelion and Viridian
> Shaman don't impress me and I only have Triskelion anyway. But
> see below.
>
> Differences from my friends version consist mainly of dropping
> out Triskelion and Mephidross Vampire. Problem being that I misread
> the Vampire. Reading it correctly it looks like a solid combo, though
> I don't want to splash a third color, so I'd be stuck with using
> Tooth to get the Vampires out.
>
> Losses:
> My losses with this deck have been to Land Destruction (Including
> the incidental version from the Reap and Sows of Tooth decks!),
> Unblockables, Big Fliers, Ravager, and Arc Slogger. LD was a danger to
> an early version, this version should handle that. Ravager was a
> fluke for the earlier version. This version hasn't faced it and
> isn't as well equipped for it. I included the Traproots to stall
> or hold off fliers and the Sliths are there so I can get a
> cheap (relatively) flier myself that can become a real threat also.
> But I have no idea how to stop unblockable Ninjas and Arc Slogger
> with the exception of getting the Angel or the Lattice out and by
> then it's often too late.

Hai, your problem seems to be fast decks and destroyed Cloudposts.
You could try Sakura-Tribe Elder to fetch a land on its death. It may
not fly, but you do get a free land for killing it. Of course, the Kami may
be a better metagaming choice.

> Wins:
> Deck wins by Colossus Beatdown, Rude Awakening, defensive lock, and
> if the lock succeeds, Doorway. Given time to build the lock,
> Doorways works suprisingly often. Old version could win with burn
> but that was never its intent and I don't think I can find the space
> for Red here.
>
> So, any advise on what to add, what to drop, how to improve this?

First thing I'd do to improve it is to stick to one way of winning. You have
the
big creature beatdown courtesy of Tooth and Nail.

1) 3 Tooth and Nail + 10 big creatures
I'm guessing this is the primary win condition then, beat them with large
creatures for insane damage? Let's assume it is and start there.

2) Rude Awakening
Generates a creature swarm ... win by sheer numbers.

3) Door To Nothingness
While entertaining, I think it's too fragile for this deck. I'd probably
drop this and free up the two cards

I think I'm seeing two big problems: First is that you have a lot of one-ofs.
Of course, you have the Portal to search them out. If it works, I won't
complain about it. Personally if I were to fix the deck, I'd go something like
this:

Land (24)
12 Forest
4 Plains
2 Tranquil Garden
2 Elfhame Palace
4 Cloudpost
Creatures (14)
3 Traproot Kami
3 Eternal Witness
3 Duplicant
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Collssus
1 Bringer of the White Dawn
1 Platnum Angel
Spells (22)
3 Naturalize
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Reap and Sow
3 Tooth and Nail
2 Mycosynth Lattice
2 Mindslaver
1 Planar Portal
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Ivory Mask

I kept the two things that I liked: Fattie Beatdown and the defense mechanisms
Somehow, I like the idea of having an entire board that your opponent can't
target
or destroy. Of course by this point, you should have won, but hey I like the
fun
aspect of your deck. That's what I carried over. The Tooth and Nail fetches
either
your fatties or the parts to your lock/defense.

This deck and yours suffers from a bad early defense. You may get beaten in if
your
opponent has a really fast deck. It's probably not as good as a "pure" Tooth
and Nail
Deck, but it could be something that people aren't expecting.

-------
Clayton

Random Tagline:
Do androids dream of electric sheep?
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:55:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Well first of all MD Naturalize is kinda silly now because of the fall of
Affinity, that should be regulated to the board.
Off the top of my head the only artifacts i would worry about now days are
O.Stone, Simulacrum and Chrome Mox.

The problem with your deck, especially if your playing tourney level is that
your trying to do too much with the same deck
When your designing a deck you should have one theme to it and all your card
choices should help full that theme, not trying to protect yourself from
everything you can think of in Game 1 that is what the board is for. If i
had to guess, I'd say your deck is rather inconsistent and that is because
of the one ofs and such.
Im not trying to bad mouth your deck I'm just looking @ it objectively in
comparison to a more consistent T&N deck.

The first thing i would do is ditch Cloudpost for the 'Tron. Cloudpost is a
huge Tempo hit in the early game and even in late game, you need to be
casting spells every turn to build position, and with Cloudpost this is
retarded by a turn because you have to wait for the stupid thing to untap.
Also i would take out the Door to Nothingness considering you cant generate
the RRUUBB part of the ability to even use it. The Darksteel forge/Mycosynth
Lattice costs 15 mana. 15!!! if you have 15 mana you should be winning the
game not trying to protect everything you have, plain and simple. 15 mana =
death. 15 =/= spending time protecting oneself. Also as a said before
Naturalize is board material for now w/o Affinity and no real knowledge of
what is going to happen.

So something like this

-1 Door to Nothingness
-1 Darksteel Forge
-1 Mycosynth Lattice
-2 Naturalize
-1 Leonin Abunas
-1 Platinum Angel
-2 Bringer of the White Dawn

+3 BoP
+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Reap and Sow
+1 Sylvan Scrying
+1 Tooth and Nail

The Bringer in this deck really does very little except with Mindslaver and
your only running 2 between MD and SB so this makes it a dead draw a lot of
the time, if your going to be running the Slaver/Bringer combo then you
should have 3 Slavers MD to your 2 Bringers to make it worthwhile.

anyway that is my suggestions, gl.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 11:22:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Good post. I agree with alot he said.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 2:40:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Clayton wrote:

> "Ophidian" <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:Mf2Xd.159659$0u.27591@fed1read04...
>
>>OK, this runs well against theme and fun decks, but doesn't seem to
>>fare as well as expected in tournaments.
>>
>>It started off as a Cloudpost deck before I got my Tooth and Nails.
>>I also incorporated as much of Florian Pils Remini deck as I
>>felt comfortable with. Then a friend traded me his T&N deck so I
>>could actually pull off the real thing. And finally added a splash
>>of Kamigawa.
>
> Could you describe that deck please? I'm not as familir with the tournament
> scene. I prefer to play for fun -- though I like a well-tuned deck.

The Pils deck?

1 Blinkmoth Nexus.
4 Cloudpost
18 Forest
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Duplicant
4 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulcrum
3 Viridian Shaman
4 Tooth and Bail
3 Mindslaver
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Reap and Sow
1 Rude Awakening
4 Oxidize
3 Tel-Jilad Justice

Side:
2 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Tel-Jilad Justice
2 Triskelion
1 Mindslaver
4 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reap and Sow
1 Creeping Mold

Or my friend's deck?
No Nexus, 1 Angel, no Abunas, no Witness, 4 Duplicant, no simulcrum,
no Shaman, Mephidross Vampire main decked, Triskelion maindecked,
2 Mindslaver, 1 Bringer, 4 Sakura Tribe Elders. And other tweaks on the
numbers that I don't recall.


>>I used the Lattice to get the Abunas out. Traproot's job was handled
>>by Vine Trellis back then. I like the extra mana, but Traproot can
>>drop on turn one and block fliers. I'm thinking of SB'ing the
>>Traproots and adding the Trelli back to gain speed from turn three
>>on, but the fliers have been a problem. The other main loss from
>>the old version is Tower of Fortunes, IIRC. I liked getting the
>>extra draws, but it's expensive and comes late game. It may go back
>>in, card advantage is a problem here.
>
> Vine Trellis could be an idea ... I think that the Elder might be something
> to try out.

I'll have to test some more with switching in and
out Trellis/Elder/Traproot I guess.

> Hai, your problem seems to be fast decks and destroyed Cloudposts.

Yup.

> You could try Sakura-Tribe Elder to fetch a land on its death. It may
> not fly, but you do get a free land for killing it.

It also won't block Higure's power. ;(

> Of course, the Kami may
> be a better metagaming choice.

Green's dropped in popularity but fliers have risen again (no
pun intended).

> First thing I'd do to improve it is to stick to one way of winning. You have
> the
> big creature beatdown courtesy of Tooth and Nail.
>
> 1) 3 Tooth and Nail + 10 big creatures
> I'm guessing this is the primary win condition then, beat them with large
> creatures for insane damage? Let's assume it is and start there.

It's the default method, but not the main goal.
It works when the others don't.
So yeah, agreed, it should become the main goal.

> 2) Rude Awakening
> Generates a creature swarm ... win by sheer numbers.

And this deck and every other version generates lots of land to
swarm with. I think it should stay even if I focus more on the
Tooth end.

> 3) Door To Nothingness
> While entertaining, I think it's too fragile for this deck. I'd probably
> drop this and free up the two cards

Most likely will.
It's my win condition when I get a defense lock.
If they can't take out my Plat Angel(s), I win with this card
unless they have a Plat lock.

> I think I'm seeing two big problems: First is that you have a lot of one-ofs.
> Of course, you have the Portal to search them out. If it works, I won't
> complain about it.

It's more of "when it works, it works beautifully".
That portal is a prime Naturalize target but that draws the
spell freeing my other artifacts to dance around.
Colossus doesn't need worry though...

> Personally if I were to fix the deck, I'd go something like
> this:
>
> Land (24)
> 12 Forest
> 4 Plains
> 2 Tranquil Garden
> 2 Elfhame Palace

I didn't see room for the tapped status slowing me downand the
color selection has been a problem in only one game.

> 4 Cloudpost

> Creatures (14)
> 3 Traproot Kami
> 3 Eternal Witness
> 3 Duplicant
> 1 Leonin Abunas
> 1 Sundering Titan

Why is everyone maindecking this?

> 1 Darksteel Collssus
> 1 Bringer of the White Dawn
> 1 Platnum Angel

> Spells (22)
> 3 Naturalize
> 3 Sylvan Scrying
> 3 Reap and Sow
> 3 Tooth and Nail
> 2 Mycosynth Lattice
> 2 Mindslaver
> 1 Planar Portal
> 1 Darksteel Forge
> 1 Ivory Mask
>
> I kept the two things that I liked: Fattie Beatdown and the defense mechanisms
> Somehow, I like the idea of having an entire board that your opponent can't
> target
> or destroy.

That was my main goal. Having enough power to do so brings
in Twelvepost. And Twelvepost's power naturalize lends itself to Tooth.

> Of course by this point, you should have won, but hey I like the
> fun
> aspect of your deck. That's what I carried over. The Tooth and Nail fetches
> either
> your fatties or the parts to your lock/defense.
>
> This deck and yours suffers from a bad early defense.

Exactly.

> You may get beaten in if
> your
> opponent has a really fast deck. It's probably not as good as a "pure" Tooth
> and Nail
> Deck, but it could be something that people aren't expecting.

That's been another strength. They kill components they think are
dangerous and then get a quick Door or Awakening.
But speed is the major weakness.

Thansk for the comments.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 2:50:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Darkwvlf wrote:

> Well first of all MD Naturalize is kinda silly now because of the fall of
> Affinity, that should be regulated to the board.

Yeah, that can likely come out after the 20th...

> Off the top of my head the only artifacts i would worry about now days are
> O.Stone, Simulacrum and Chrome Mox.

I've considered adding O.Stone and Mox.
Are they worth it for me?

> The problem with your deck, especially if your playing tourney level is that
> your trying to do too much with the same deck
> When your designing a deck you should have one theme to it and all your card
> choices should help full that theme, not trying to protect yourself from
> everything you can think of in Game 1 that is what the board is for.

Good point.

> If i
> had to guess, I'd say your deck is rather inconsistent and that is because
> of the one ofs and such.

It doesn't play the same way early but consistantly builds towards
the same point. The early game is what kills me in "real" tourney play
though.

> The first thing i would do is ditch Cloudpost for the 'Tron. Cloudpost is a
> huge Tempo hit in the early game and even in late game, you need to be
> casting spells every turn to build position, and with Cloudpost this is
> retarded by a turn because you have to wait for the stupid thing to untap.
> Also i would take out the Door to Nothingness considering you cant generate
> the RRUUBB part of the ability to even use it. The Darksteel forge/Mycosynth
> Lattice costs 15 mana. 15!!!

I only need the Lattice for the Door.
But as I like the suggestion made elsewhere of Damping Matrix,
I becoming quite inclined to lose the Door.

> if you have 15 mana you should be winning the
> game not trying to protect everything you have, plain and simple.

Basically, I trying to protect things enroute.
By 15 I'd be throwing Duplicants and Colossi around.

> So something like this
>
> -1 Door to Nothingness
> -1 Darksteel Forge
> -1 Mycosynth Lattice
> -2 Naturalize
> -1 Leonin Abunas
> -1 Platinum Angel
> -2 Bringer of the White Dawn

Lattice/Abunas/Angel is a great combo but I see your point and
many sages have said a three card combo is bad stunt to rely on.

> +3 BoP

I wish!

> +2 Eternal Witness
> +2 Reap and Sow
> +1 Sylvan Scrying
> +1 Tooth and Nail

These I can easily do.

> The Bringer in this deck really does very little except with Mindslaver

Also restores Plat Angel or Portal if I lose them.

> and
> your only running 2 between MD and SB so this makes it a dead draw a lot of
> the time, if your going to be running the Slaver/Bringer combo then you
> should have 3 Slavers MD to your 2 Bringers to make it worthwhile.

Having only two slavers, I'll seriously consider this.

> anyway that is my suggestions, gl.

Thanks!
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 5:00:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

>Stopping Slogger and Ravager sounds worth it.
whats this ravager you talk of?
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 5:00:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Gareth Pye wrote:

>>Stopping Slogger and Ravager sounds worth it.
>
> whats this ravager you talk of?

It's not dead yet.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 9:54:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Hi,
although I don't really like TaN I can say something about it...

First: Use Urza Lands. They make your Deck more consistent because you
play them more often.

Second: Titan is Good! Use a TaN on Titan/Kiki against any Deck and
you will at least kill 2 Lands per Turn...Plus you have a 7/10. ^_^
Many Players conceede after TaN on Kik/Titan, cuz they'll lose all
their lands within some turns.

Third: I'd use Angel/Abunas (but only one of each) Maindeck, it won
the players playing against me 4 games, cuz I couldn't handle it...(I
was playing Affinity & they were at about 5-8 Life).

And the last point is: Don't splash (which doesn't mean you shouldn't
play Kiki & Abunas ^^) anything except Black for Extraction...(4 in
SB) they can help you a lot. (Against MBC/BG u play it on extraction,
against MUC u play it on Quash and so on...). I'd only use 1 Swamp
though...You have a lot of landfetchers, or you should have (Sylvan,
Reap, Sakura + Birds, if you can afford them :) ).

Greats,
Julian :) 
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 2:07:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Julian Velder wrote:

> Hi,
> although I don't really like TaN I can say something about it...
>
> First: Use Urza Lands. They make your Deck more consistent because you
> play them more often.
>
> Second: Titan is Good! Use a TaN on Titan/Kiki against any Deck and
> you will at least kill 2 Lands per Turn...Plus you have a 7/10. ^_^
> Many Players conceede after TaN on Kik/Titan, cuz they'll lose all
> their lands within some turns.

Wait, I think I get it now.
I play more lands but we both lose as many.
Net gain: me!
Correct?
Titan didn't make sense to me except against other green decks 'til now. ;(

> And the last point is: Don't splash (which doesn't mean you shouldn't
> play Kiki & Abunas ^^) anything except Black for Extraction...(4 in
> SB) they can help you a lot. (Against MBC/BG u play it on extraction,
> against MUC u play it on Quash and so on...). I'd only use 1 Swamp
> though...You have a lot of landfetchers, or you should have (Sylvan,
> Reap, Sakura + Birds, if you can afford them :) ).

Short only on Birds.
Extraction looks pretty useful, at least side boarded.
Any othet opinions on it?
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:30:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Ophidian wrote:
> Julian Velder wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> although I don't really like TaN I can say something about it...
>>
>> First: Use Urza Lands. They make your Deck more consistent because you
>> play them more often.
>>
>> Second: Titan is Good! Use a TaN on Titan/Kiki against any Deck and
>> you will at least kill 2 Lands per Turn...Plus you have a 7/10. ^_^
>> Many Players conceede after TaN on Kik/Titan, cuz they'll lose all
>> their lands within some turns.
>
>
> Wait, I think I get it now.
> I play more lands but we both lose as many.
> Net gain: me!
> Correct?
> Titan didn't make sense to me except against other green decks 'til now. ;(

Well, that and you're running a lot of nonbasics, which Titan doesn't
touch. And you have multiple 7/10s, too.

Cheers,
Grant
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 11:49:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

One thing I've realized is that two of the defense proposed
(Extraction and Damping Matrix) don't have a method to assure
being drawn. They won't save me if I can't get them in hand. Are
there any artifacts, green cards, or creatures that would ease
that process?
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 11:55:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Don't run them for one. If you do, you should be using 2-3 Tops to find
them. The reason Top is played in Tooth is because of Tooth's shuffling
techniques, i.e.: Reap and Sow; Sylvan Scrying; and Sakura Tribe-Elder.
If your worried about mono-black and B/G decks you should run 1 more
Titan and 2 more Duplicants sideboard. You can wreck them when they drop
Kokusho w/ a Duplicant. Duplicant= kill spell+creature in your deck
that can be casted turn 4 if needed. Good against Slogger and can be
another threat against Cranial Extraction.

If you losing to any deck running Lure, you seriously need to work on
your deck. Go for the Tooth as fast as possible.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 6:09:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Tommy Luke wrote:

> Don't run them for one. If you do, you should be using 2-3 Tops to find
> them. The reason Top is played in Tooth is because of Tooth's shuffling
> techniques, i.e.: Reap and Sow; Sylvan Scrying; and Sakura Tribe-Elder.
> If your worried about mono-black and B/G decks you should run 1 more
> Titan and 2 more Duplicants sideboard. You can wreck them when they drop
> Kokusho w/ a Duplicant. Duplicant= kill spell+creature in your deck
> that can be casted turn 4 if needed. Good against Slogger and can be
> another threat against Cranial Extraction.
>
> If you losing to any deck running Lure, you seriously need to work on
> your deck. Go for the Tooth as fast as possible.

Lure style effects killed Angel.
Other things killed me.
Happened twice.

I did manage to Duplicant the first Slogger of one match, but
didn't draw one or a tooth the second.
And that's was running 4 Dup's and 4 Tooth.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 9:04:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Ophidian wrote:

Alright, taking into account everyones comments here's where its now at:

12 x Forest
4 x Cloudpost
3 x Urza's Mine
3 x Urza's Power Plant
2 x Urza's Tower

1 x Birds of Paradise
2 x Eternal Witness
4 x Vine Trellis
2 x Bringer of the White Dawn
2 x Leonin Abunas
1 x Darksteel Colossus
4 x Duplicant
2 x Platinum Angel

4 x Reap and Sow
4 x Rude Awakening
4 x Sylvan Scrying
4 x Tooth and Nail
2 x Mindslaver

Sideboard:
2 x Mephidross Vampire
1 x Darksteel Colossus
2 x Sundering Titan
2 x Triskelion
1 x Lifegift
4 x Naturalize
1 x Nature's Will
1 x Rampant Growth

Comments:
Urzatron does not perform as advertised. Cloudpost is far outdoing
it. I think I'll leave it for that extra boost though.

Witness plays to early giving few good targets. I could hold them
but having a creature out quick is far too useful.

Vine Trellis isn't really using its mana ability. It's playing as
just a wall. Maybe I should switch back to Traproot Kami, switch
to Steel Wall (cheaper!), or forgo the walls and use
Sakura-Tribe Elders.

Bringer rarely comes into play and is there mainly for Mindslaver
which also rarely comes in.

Abunas isn't doing much in my tests but I haven't had to let Colossus
or Angel face real direct tests yet.

Feels weird not using both Colossi main deck.

Duplicant is key, and Angel often provides a valuable stall.

Going 4x on the green non-creatures speeds the game dramatically.
I've seen 13 mana on turn 5, entwined Tooth, and hardcast Colossus.

Questions:
What can I remove when I want to sideboard in something?
(Titan goes in against Green decks.
Lifegift against land grab deck.)

When is it worth adding Vampire/Triskelion?

What's a good replacement for the meager Rampant Growth?

I may drop a Bringer and/or an Abunas to bring in the second Colossus or
the Vampire/Triskelion. I may drop more to do that set. Opinions?
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 7:17:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:04:12 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
wrote:

>Ophidian wrote:
>
>Alright, taking into account everyones comments here's where its now at:
>
>12 x Forest
>4 x Cloudpost
>3 x Urza's Mine
>3 x Urza's Power Plant
>2 x Urza's Tower

Either use Urzatron OR the Cloudposts...

>1 x Birds of Paradise
>2 x Eternal Witness
>4 x Vine Trellis
>2 x Bringer of the White Dawn
>2 x Leonin Abunas
>1 x Darksteel Colossus
>4 x Duplicant
>2 x Platinum Angel

Where is Kiki-Jiki?! OO
He acts as a second Colossus, Duplicant (you only need one or maybe
two), ...

>4 x Reap and Sow
>4 x Rude Awakening
>4 x Sylvan Scrying
>4 x Tooth and Nail
>2 x Mindslaver
>
>Sideboard:
>2 x Mephidross Vampire
>1 x Darksteel Colossus
>2 x Sundering Titan
>2 x Triskelion
>1 x Lifegift
>4 x Naturalize
>1 x Nature's Will
>1 x Rampant Growth

Nothing against Extraction and/or Ponza?! Oo

Here's a Decklist posted in some german Mtg Forum, it may not be up to
date but it's a good base...:
[Manabase 23]
10 Forest / GREEN MANA! :>
4 Urza's Mine / MANA!
4 Urza's Power Plant / MANA!
4 Urza's Tower / MANA!
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All / can be fetched against Control, if they
have some in their SB, u need too

[Critters 18]
4 Eternal Witness / Recycling
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder / Landfetch
4 Solemn Simulacrum / fetches Lands, probably Replace them with Vine
Trellis or Birds (If you got some Birds use them!)
1 Darksteel Colossus / ouch...
1 Duplicant / Creature Removal
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker / doubles anything , used with Duplicant,
DS Colossus & Titan
1 Leonin Abunas / -> Angel
1 Platinum Angel / Hard Lock with Abunas (Opponent needs to kill 2
Creatures...!)
1 Sundering Titan / LD

[Tools & other Stuff 19]
4 Oxidize / can be replaced with better stuff
4 Reap and Sow / fetches Urzathron & other Lands+LD
4 Sylvan Scrying / fetches Lands
4 Tooth and Nail / ...
3 Oblivion Stone / kills weenies, stalls

[Sideboard 15]
4 Viridian Shaman / against Affinity, I'd replace them with Cranial
Extractions or swap 3 (Extractions) with Oblivion Stones...
3 Plow Under / Mirrormatch and Control
3 Sacred Ground / Ponza
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All / Control
1 Mephidross Vampire / Weenies
1 Mindslaver / just for fun ;) 
1 Plains / Sacred Ground
1 Triskelion / Weenies as well ;) 

Greats,
dune :) 
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 7:17:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Julian Velder wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:04:12 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Ophidian wrote:
>>
> Either use Urzatron OR the Cloudposts...

CP it is.

> Where is Kiki-Jiki?! OO
> He acts as a second Colossus, Duplicant (you only need one or maybe
> two), ...

Shortly after I posted he demanded admission.
I swapped a Trellis for him.

> Nothing against Extraction and/or Ponza?! Oo

Suggestions?

> 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All / can be fetched against Control, if they
> have some in their SB, u need too

I don't like the life requirement.
I take enough hits before my stomping begins.

> 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder / Landfetch

Keep wanting those.
Lose trellis and use these?
Yea or Nay?

> 1 Duplicant / Creature Removal

That's why i run 4.

> 1 Leonin Abunas / -> Angel
> 1 Platinum Angel / Hard Lock with Abunas (Opponent needs to kill 2
> Creatures...!)

I sideboarded Abunas for opponents that kill Angel too easily.

> 4 Oxidize / can be replaced with better stuff

As others have said, with Ravager going away and a lot of Non-artifact
decks rising, sideboard is fine for this.
I use Naturalize despite the higher cost as it targets enchanments too.

> 3 Oblivion Stone / kills weenies, stalls

Considered and dismissed as a distraction.
Also a 1 off for me. ;(

Other oddities:
My second Colossus still wants to be maindecked, and Keiga wants in to
play nice with Kiki. But I don't know what to drop for them.
1 Trellis and 1 Duplicant maybe?
Replace two remaining Trellis with Elder?
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 7:17:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

In news:cAi_d.256701$0u.139144@fed1read04,
Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
> Julian Velder wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:04:12 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ophidian wrote:
>>>
>> Either use Urzatron OR the Cloudposts...
>
> CP it is.

It's my opinion, and just an opinion, that Urzatron is better than Cloudpost
if you're playing one color (ie, mono-green). If you're running 2+ colors,
then Cloudposts work better. This is because the Urzatron takes up 12 slots
in your deck, leaving room for only 10-ish Forests, nevermind any Mountains
(or whatever your second color is). Try both ways, see which one you like
best.

>> Where is Kiki-Jiki?! OO
>> He acts as a second Colossus, Duplicant (you only need one or maybe
>> two), ...
>
> Shortly after I posted he demanded admission.
> I swapped a Trellis for him.

Sounds reasonable.

>> Nothing against Extraction and/or Ponza?! Oo
>
> Suggestions?

Sacred Ground in the SB works nicely against LD and Ponza. Making the deck
Extraction-proof is a harder task, and would basically require you to run 3
red sources and 1 white source (so that when they Extract your Tooth and
Nails, and they will, you can still cast everything in your deck). Tooth is
a hard deck to make Extraction-proof, by its very nature. I saw a
Green-Black Tooth build the other day that stomped me even after I extracted
it twice. (I Extracted Tooth, then Mephidross Vampire). It was a more
controlling version, running Echoing Decay and a couple Rend Flesh.

>> 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All / can be fetched against Control, if they
>> have some in their SB, u need too
>
> I don't like the life requirement.
> I take enough hits before my stomping begins.

It's only two life, and you should only have to pay it once. Since you
should win within 2 turns of casting Tooth, I wouldn't worry about the life
loss too much.

>> 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder / Landfetch
>
> Keep wanting those.
> Lose trellis and use these?
> Yea or Nay?

Definitely use them. They block just as well as the Vine Trellis (since
Trample isn't a big deal in the early game), and they thin your deck out
(which means you won't draw as many lands).

>> 1 Duplicant / Creature Removal
>
> That's why i run 4.

4 is too many, I think. 1 or 2 is probably the right number.

>> 1 Leonin Abunas / -> Angel
>> 1 Platinum Angel / Hard Lock with Abunas (Opponent needs to kill 2
>> Creatures...!)

Some people like this, but I'm not a huge fan of it. You don't have to worry
about Shrapnel Blast too much anymore, but a Wrath, Oblivion Stone, Final
Judgement, Sickening Shoal, Rend Flesh, Terror, and a bunch of other spells
kill either the Abunas or both creatures. It's a good stall tactic that will
probably buy you a few turns, and should be sided in against aggro decks,
and sided out against slower control decks. Toothing for Kiki-Colossus or
Kiki-Duplicant or Kiki-Titan is far better most of the time than
Abunas-Angel.

> I sideboarded Abunas for opponents that kill Angel too easily.

Oh, so Abunas isn't maindeck, just the Angel? Better, I suppose, but the
Angel might not be necessary. YMMV, of course.

>> 4 Oxidize / can be replaced with better stuff
>
> As others have said, with Ravager going away and a lot of Non-artifact
> decks rising, sideboard is fine for this.
> I use Naturalize despite the higher cost as it targets enchanments
> too.

Naturalize is definitely going to be better in the new Standard environment.
With Kamigawa block, enchantments matter again. They're not going to be in
every deck, but they'll be in enough to warrant Naturalize over Oxidize.

>> 3 Oblivion Stone / kills weenies, stalls
>
> Considered and dismissed as a distraction.
> Also a 1 off for me. ;(

OK, if you're playing this, it's another reason to play Tribe Elders over
Vine Trellis.

> Other oddities:
> My second Colossus still wants to be maindecked, and Keiga wants in to
> play nice with Kiki.

Keiga and Kiki do not play well together. Read Kiki-Jiki. It says you can
copy a non-Legendary creature, and Keiga is a Legendary Dragon Spirit.
Besides, Kokusho would be as good, if not better, then Keiga in this deck if
this were possible.

> But I don't know what to drop for them.
> 1 Trellis and 1 Duplicant maybe?
> Replace two remaining Trellis with Elder?

I think you may want to run 4 Elders.

Here's an approximate list, off the top of my head:

//creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Mephidross Vampire

//mana-ramping spells
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Reap and Sow
1 Kodama's Reach

//utility and removal
4 Naturalize
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver

//big game winning bombs
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Rude Awakening

//land and such
12 Urza's lands
11 Forests

I haven't added it up, but I think this leaves a few slots open, which you
can put in cards as you see fit, depending on what other kinds of decks you
will be playing. Lots of White Weenie? Swap out a Forest for a Mountain, and
run a few Pyroclasm. Lots of land destruction, add a Plains and some Sacred
Ground. Lots of rogue decks? Make your own metagame call.

Later.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 7:17:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Briscobar wrote:
> In news:cAi_d.256701$0u.139144@fed1read04,
> Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
>
>>>Either use Urzatron OR the Cloudposts...
>>
>>CP it is.
>
> It's my opinion, and just an opinion, that Urzatron is better than Cloudpost
> if you're playing one color (ie, mono-green). If you're running 2+ colors,
> then Cloudposts work better. This is because the Urzatron takes up 12 slots
> in your deck, leaving room for only 10-ish Forests, nevermind any Mountains
> (or whatever your second color is). Try both ways, see which one you like
> best.

With a formed three card Urzatron you have 7 mana.
With 3 Cloudpost you have 9.
With 4 cards in each you get 10 vs 16.
Since I get to pick my lands pretty much it's easy to get to either
configuration.
Losing one turn on each Post seems worth the extra benefit.

>>>Nothing against Extraction and/or Ponza?! Oo
>>
>>Suggestions?
>
> Sacred Ground in the SB works nicely against LD and Ponza.

Then I'd need the white mana back.
I can't trust birds as I have only one.

>>>1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All / can be fetched against Control, if they
>>>have some in their SB, u need too
>>
>>I don't like the life requirement.
>>I take enough hits before my stomping begins.
>
> It's only two life, and you should only have to pay it once. Since you
> should win within 2 turns of casting Tooth, I wouldn't worry about the life
> loss too much.

Point.
If it saves tooth it may be worth it.
I have three, should I run them all?

>>>4 Sakura-Tribe Elder / Landfetch
>>
>>Keep wanting those.
>>Lose trellis and use these?
>>Yea or Nay?
>
> Definitely use them. They block just as well as the Vine Trellis (since
> Trample isn't a big deal in the early game), and they thin your deck out
> (which means you won't draw as many lands).

Trellis isn't just a chump block like Elder, but I like your
deck thinning point.

>>>1 Duplicant / Creature Removal
>>
>>That's why i run 4.
>
> 4 is too many, I think. 1 or 2 is probably the right number.

I dropped to 3 to get Keiga in.

>>I sideboarded Abunas for opponents that kill Angel too easily.
>
> Oh, so Abunas isn't maindeck, just the Angel?

Not anymore.

> Better, I suppose, but the
> Angel might not be necessary. YMMV, of course.

It has saved me in a few tests and a few real matches.
And it wastes an opponents turn to deal with it.

>>Other oddities:
>>My second Colossus still wants to be maindecked, and Keiga wants in to
>>play nice with Kiki.
>
> Keiga and Kiki do not play well together. Read Kiki-Jiki. It says you can
> copy a non-Legendary creature, and Keiga is a Legendary Dragon Spirit.

Oops.
One more Elder then!
Maybe.
Keiga is good alone as a flying stomper and a creature theft, but I can
do the latter (almost) with duplicant, and the former with, well, many
things.

>>But I don't know what to drop for them.
>>1 Trellis and 1 Duplicant maybe?
>>Replace two remaining Trellis with Elder?
>
> I think you may want to run 4 Elders.

Its looking like it.
I'll drop another Duplicant if needed.

> Later.

Thanks!
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 7:17:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

In news:7Mk_d.256707$0u.18419@fed1read04,
Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
>
> With a formed three card Urzatron you have 7 mana.
> With 3 Cloudpost you have 9.

To be fair, once you lay the 3rd Cloudpost, you have 6 mana, as the new
Cloudpost is tapped.

> With 4 cards in each you get 10 vs 16.
> Since I get to pick my lands pretty much it's easy to get to either
> configuration.
> Losing one turn on each Post seems worth the extra benefit.

I'm not so sure. I played Tooth for a while, and played a G/W version at
last year's regionals. Throughout testing, I kept finding that the "wasted"
turn for the Cloudpost would be better spent playing even a mediocre spell
that affected the board somehow.

>> Sacred Ground in the SB works nicely against LD and Ponza.
>
> Then I'd need the white mana back.
> I can't trust birds as I have only one.

Fair enough

>> It's only two life, and you should only have to pay it once. Since
>> you should win within 2 turns of casting Tooth, I wouldn't worry
>> about the life loss too much.
>
> Point.
> If it saves tooth it may be worth it.
> I have three, should I run them all?

3 Boseijus? No, don't run 3. Just one. You have 7 spells that can fetch it
out, and you only have to do that if your opponent is playing Blue. And if
he is, make it the first land you go for, if possible.

> Trellis isn't just a chump block like Elder, but I like your
> deck thinning point.

Trellis dies to Oblivion Stone, Elders don't (you just sacrifice them before
the Stone activation resolves). With a deck like Tooth and Nail, if you have
to cast the Oblivion Stone, you're probably getting overwhelmed, and don't
have too much time to waste putting Fate counters on things. So if you're
going to run O-Stone, I suggest 4 Tribe Elders over 4 Vine Trellises. If you
can squeeze in Trellises in some other slot, go for it, but I really think
that 4 Tribe Elders are a necessity.

>>>>1 Duplicant / Creature Removal
>>>
>>>That's why i run 4.
>>
>> 4 is too many, I think. 1 or 2 is probably the right number.
>
> I dropped to 3 to get Keiga in.

Note what I said about Kiki-Jiki and Keiga. Also, Why bother with Keiga? If
you have Colossus, it can trample over just about everything, and kill
multiple creatures in one shot. Keiga can't trample, and can only swing for
5 damage a turn. However, Keiga in the sideboard is some pretty interesting
stuff, though. Tooth for 2 Keigas, and get control of two of their
creatures. If you're playing the Tooth Mirror match, this is probably a game
winner (if they've resolved a Tooth, but have yet to kill you). Steal their
Kiki and Colossus, swing with a Colossus token for 11 damage, then next turn
for 22. gg.

> One more Elder then!

I strongly agree. It is perhaps the best land search card available in Type
2.

> Keiga is good alone as a flying stomper and a creature theft,

Only if you can manage to kill Keiga.

> but I
> can do the latter (almost) with duplicant, and the former with, well,
> many things.

Agreed. Keiga in the board, if anything.

>> I think you may want to run 4 Elders.
>
> Its looking like it.
> I'll drop another Duplicant if needed.

Sounds like a plan.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 9:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Briscobar wrote:

> In news:7Mk_d.256707$0u.18419@fed1read04,
> Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
>
>>With a formed three card Urzatron you have 7 mana.
>>With 3 Cloudpost you have 9.
>
>
> To be fair, once you lay the 3rd Cloudpost, you have 6 mana, as the new
> Cloudpost is tapped.

Sure, I meant when all are _usably_ in place.

>>With 4 cards in each you get 10 vs 16.
>>Since I get to pick my lands pretty much it's easy to get to either
>>configuration.
>>Losing one turn on each Post seems worth the extra benefit.
>
> I'm not so sure. I played Tooth for a while, and played a G/W version at
> last year's regionals. Throughout testing, I kept finding that the "wasted"
> turn for the Cloudpost would be better spent playing even a mediocre spell
> that affected the board somehow.

I have few low cost spells in my deck (though that's improving) and
I find the large jump with each post helps me more. YMMV.

Heck, this started as a Twelve-Post deck long before I managed to trade
for the Tooth's (Teeth?).

>>>Sacred Ground in the SB works nicely against LD and Ponza.
>>
>>Then I'd need the white mana back.
>>I can't trust birds as I have only one.
>
> Fair enough

Actually, thinking on this and the Damping Matrix/Extraction
advise convinced me to put in one Plain and an Ivory Mask.
Gave up a Rude Awakening for the Mask.
Seemed fair as Awakening is a late game move and usually the last
card played when played.


>>>It's only two life, and you should only have to pay it once. Since
>>>you should win within 2 turns of casting Tooth, I wouldn't worry
>>>about the life loss too much.
>>
>>Point.
>>If it saves tooth it may be worth it.
>>I have three, should I run them all?
>
> 3 Boseijus? No, don't run 3. Just one.
> You have 7 spells that can fetch it
> out, and you only have to do that if your opponent is playing Blue. And if
> he is, make it the first land you go for, if possible.

Yup, that struck me as I was rereading them offline.
I can get the one when I need it. The others would just waste
forest slots. Thanks

>>Trellis isn't just a chump block like Elder, but I like your
>>deck thinning point.
>
> Trellis dies to Oblivion Stone, Elders don't (you just sacrifice them before
> the Stone activation resolves). With a deck like Tooth and Nail, if you have
> to cast the Oblivion Stone, you're probably getting overwhelmed, and don't
> have too much time to waste putting Fate counters on things. So if you're
> going to run O-Stone, I suggest 4 Tribe Elders over 4 Vine Trellises. If you
> can squeeze in Trellises in some other slot, go for it, but I really think
> that 4 Tribe Elders are a necessity.

Good points.
I'm not running O-stone but am still debating it.
I only have one and I don't know what to drop to add it.

> However, Keiga in the sideboard is some pretty interesting
> stuff, though. Tooth for 2 Keigas, and get control of two of their
> creatures.

Sweet.

>>One more Elder then!
>
> I strongly agree. It is perhaps the best land search card available in Type
> 2.

I'm rapidly becoming a convert.
A rather cheap Wood Elf who gets you the land when killed rather
than when played.
(Weird analog to Ravager being better than Crusher...)
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 11:07:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:45:55 -0500, "Briscobar"
<youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

>Making the deck
>Extraction-proof is a harder task, and would basically require you to run 3
>red sources and 1 white source (so that when they Extract your Tooth and
>Nails, and they will, you can still cast everything in your deck). Tooth is
>a hard deck to make Extraction-proof, by its very nature. I saw a
>Green-Black Tooth build the other day that stomped me even after I extracted
>it twice. (I Extracted Tooth, then Mephidross Vampire). It was a more
>controlling version, running Echoing Decay and a couple Rend Flesh.

The easiest way to make the Deck sort of extraction-proof is running
some Extractions and a swamp (u go lots of stuff to fetch it)...

Greats,
dune
*asking.himself.why.he.is.helping.to.build.a.deck.he.already.hates*
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 12:29:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

In news:rbo_d.256732$0u.161128@fed1read04,
Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
><snip>

What I've failed to mention is the inclusion of Sensei's Divining Top. It
serves as a 1-drop, of which you have none, since you removed Birds of
Paradise. You have so many shuffle effects in this deck that it's inclusion
should be considered heavily. With this many shuffle effects (I suggested
12, not counting Tooth and Nail, you may have more or less), you can use
Sensei every turn, and maybe every other turn you can use it in combination
with a shuffle effect to shuffle away bad/dead cards. It's analogous to
what's usually considered a very good play in Type 1: Brainstorm/Fetchland.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 5:56:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Briscobar wrote:

> In news:rbo_d.256732$0u.161128@fed1read04,
> Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net> rambled:
>
>><snip>
>
>
> What I've failed to mention is the inclusion of Sensei's Divining Top. It
> serves as a 1-drop, of which you have none, since you removed Birds of
> Paradise.

I put it back. ;(

> You have so many shuffle effects in this deck that it's inclusion
> should be considered heavily. With this many shuffle effects (I suggested
> 12, not counting Tooth and Nail, you may have more or less), you can use
> Sensei every turn, and maybe every other turn you can use it in combination
> with a shuffle effect to shuffle away bad/dead cards. It's analogous to
> what's usually considered a very good play in Type 1: Brainstorm/Fetchland.

Good advise, I'll see if there's a fit.
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 5:31:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:16:37 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
wrote:

>The Uzratron-Cloudpost debate.
>I prefer Post. Adding in 6-9 Uzratron pieces might be a good
>deal though.

Seems to me that if you're going to play urzatron, you need all twelve.

Jasper
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 3:18:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

Jasper Janssen wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:16:37 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>The Uzratron-Cloudpost debate.
>>I prefer Post. Adding in 6-9 Uzratron pieces might be a good
>>deal though.
>
> Seems to me that if you're going to play urzatron, you need all twelve.

Tend to agree, but I don't have more than 8, IIRC.
Might buy the rest if testing works...
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 4:19:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:18:28 -0400, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:16:37 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The Uzratron-Cloudpost debate.
>>>I prefer Post. Adding in 6-9 Uzratron pieces might be a good
>>>deal though.
>>
>> Seems to me that if you're going to play urzatron, you need all twelve.
>
>Tend to agree, but I don't have more than 8, IIRC.
>Might buy the rest if testing works...

Well, they're commons, getting the other 4 shouldn't cost you more than a
buck. Still and all though, back when I tried to do stuff with
(Chronicles) urzatron & mishra's factory, I was almost always hosed on at
least one of the three and/or it took too long to get 'em all. But I was
up against a lot of (mostly Powerless, thank god) T1 decks with often
quite a bit of LD (like, 4 strips as standard, let alone anything else).
It'd depend a lot on your local metagame -- if games tend to run for a
long while and LD is rare, you might be able to get an urzatron combo out
and start seriously laying down some artifacts.

Jasper
Anonymous
April 26, 2005 7:00:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy (More info?)

On 2005-04-23, Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:18:28 -0400, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
> wrote:
>>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:16:37 -0500, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23@cox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The Uzratron-Cloudpost debate.
>>>>I prefer Post. Adding in 6-9 Uzratron pieces might be a good
>>>>deal though.
>>>
>>> Seems to me that if you're going to play urzatron, you need all twelve.
>>
>>Tend to agree, but I don't have more than 8, IIRC.
>>Might buy the rest if testing works...
>
> It'd depend a lot on your local metagame -- if games tend to run for a
> long while and LD is rare, you might be able to get an urzatron combo out
> and start seriously laying down some artifacts.


Sowing Salt tends to be prevalent in my area, at least enough for it to be a
problem, whether you are playing Urzatron, Cloudpost, or even 4 Ice Bridges
for color-fixing ( I run 3 Ice Bridge, 3 Mirrodin's Core, and 1 City in my
5-color deck) and needs to be thought of. Splashing blue in an urzatron for
mana leak is not a horrible idea, but you might have others. Any ideas of
protecting one's critical land in a T&N deck would be welcome

Sylvan Scrying and Reap and Sow are excellent ways to get those lands. I
think one could even play with three of each of the Urza lands (although I'd
run 4 towers, if that's the one that gives you 3mana when the tron is out).

K

--
In vino veritas
!