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Halflife 2 - which card should I buy.

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September 5, 2003 10:56:45 PM

I was wondering if anyone could help me out, Halflife 2 is coming out soon (9-30-03) and I was thinking about upgrading my video card. Obviously I would like the best, but on my budget I don't think that can happen. So in the $150-$250 Range, which card will be the best for the game. Thanks for your help and opinions.

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September 5, 2003 11:01:28 PM

Radeon 9700 non-pro. Buy from either "Built by ATi", Saphire, or Hercules. Make sure the Memory, the VPU core clock, & the memory bus-width are up to par with standard specs. I'll go dig up these specs, I'll be back ina jiffy.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 5, 2003 11:19:23 PM

Graphics Chip Cock Frequency Speed: 275 MHz
128 MB DDR Memmory @ 270 MHz
Memory Bus Width: 256 bit
Memory timing & latency: ??? (Need some input here for the guy)

With these specs You should do just fine & you can definitely find one in your price-range. This is a <b> VERY VERY</b> fast card. It won't be any more than 10 - 20% slower than the currently fastest offerings. Whatever you get, don't get a GeForce FX card. Recent discoveries have unveiled that ALL FX boards will have very mediocre performance IN DirectX 9 applications. If the $250 is a little high for you, and all you want is decent directX 9 performance, then the Radeon 9500, 9600, & 9600 Pro can all be had for less than $150. If your a real cheapskate, you can actually attempt a softmod on a (9500 Non-pro) to turn it into a 9700 non-pro although I wouldn't reccomend it because it doesn't always work and you might be left dissappointed if you don't get the highend performance your wanting. However softmodding won't void the warrently like overclocking will & if it fails it won't damage your card in any way.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
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a b U Graphics card
September 6, 2003 1:24:19 AM

Best bet.... WAIT 'til the game actually is benchmarked with current cards; THEN, and ONLY then, will you know what you SHOULD buy.

Can't say that enough it seems!

But other than that I'd go with seconding UFO's recommendation.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 6, 2003 2:07:05 AM

I've got a bad feeling that game will no way in hell run well on the best cards of today at best graphics mode (that is fullest detail, no AA or Aniso!) I mean when HL was released, heellll no, it ran terribly on most comps...

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 2:59:16 AM

Somebody around here (I think it was GW) posted a link to an interview with Gabe Newell at Valve where he said the demo running at E3 was running at around 60 frames/sec at 1024x768x32 with no AF or AA. IIRC he said it was running on a 2.8GHz P4 with an 800 MHz fsb dual DDR mobo, 512MB RAM, and a Radeon 9800 Pro.

This would suggest that the game simply won't run on today's hardware at better than slide show speeds with AF and AA cranked up.

I beat the original Half Life (the first time :cool: ) on a 380MHz K6-II, 64MB of PC100, 4MB of video RAM, playing at 800x600x16 with no filtering or AA and it FU<KING ROCKED!!!
September 6, 2003 3:05:07 AM

Ha! I beat it on a 200Mhz P1 w/ 32 megs edo and a 2MB Cirrus Logic at 640x480! l337! Beat it on difficult too, tho it was a slideshow in some parts. Now on my current comp, mwahaha.
I'll need to be running it at 1600x1200 tho, on account of the LCD I'm getting. Hope a GeForce 7 will handle it ok....

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 3:06:02 AM

I'd bet the FX line will suffer more in HL2.

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September 6, 2003 3:06:33 AM

Damn it I so wish I could dig back up my rant on asking such thread questions! :mad: 

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September 6, 2003 3:06:45 AM

Now you're just trying to get me going :tongue: . I wuv HL, and HL2 being behind Ati just eats me up.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 3:32:19 AM

I beat Half-Life on a Pentium 166 MHz (Non MMX- I think). I had 64MB of 72-pin EDO RAM, & I had a Maxi Gamer 3D 2 Voodoo2 12MB and I played it on 512x384. And yes, I beat it on difficult, (don't know how I did it on THAT system). It was soooo slow. I actually wished I could have played the game on the original 4MB Voodoo so I could crank down the res to 320x240 instead having 512x328 as the lowest to make the framerates more fluid in certain parts of the game where I had severe slideshows. Afterall, I think my CPU would have been a bottleneck for even the original 3dfx Voodoo. Did anybody beat HL the first time on a lower system than mine?

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 6, 2003 3:40:33 AM

Does my sys count as less? You had a slightly slower cpu but much better vid card and ram...

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 3:46:35 AM

Flame, two nVidia users here who nearly swore by them switched and could not be happier.

I dare ya to get a 9800 and tell me it ain't good.
Your next card is gonna be an ATi, I can almost tell.

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September 6, 2003 4:08:25 AM

Actually, you got a VERY good point there. I can't beleive I overlooked that. Your system would count as lower. I'm wondering how yoou could have beatin' that on the "difficult" setting at 640x480 software rendering on a 2meg card. How did you do it man?

Anywayz did anyone have a lower CPU than mine when they played HL?

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 6, 2003 4:32:39 AM

*DELETED FOR CRAP MATHEMATICAL MISCALCULATION REASONS*
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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</b></font color=blue></A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 09/06/03 01:00 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 6, 2003 4:50:24 AM

Mine was 200Mhz, his 166, only 33Mhz difference.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 4:51:19 AM

I seem them as the mac switch ads:) 
Let me prove you wrong come upgrade time.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 6, 2003 5:01:27 AM

Prove me wrong?

Have you seen the latest DX 9 results?
nVidia's going down, their drivers got even more bugs lately. So many FX users come here with probs. Give it up Flamey.

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September 6, 2003 5:11:20 AM

I feel like being mean tonight :evil:  :

Eden basicaly posted a LONG A$$ thread proving why a 166MHz non-MMX CPU is at least 350% faster than a 200MHz MMX. :wink:


My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 6, 2003 5:13:45 AM

Just kidding.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 6, 2003 5:22:03 AM

That's it!
You're going down!


*Honorary Forum Veteran fireball attack!*

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September 6, 2003 5:37:13 AM

OUCH!!!!!!!!! Your roasting me into a charr-broiled burger patty! Ay the FLAMES, the FLAMES! Somebody help me!!!!!!!!!

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 6, 2003 6:04:40 AM

Yes...let me pee pee pee all over you:) 

I help because you suck.
September 6, 2003 6:15:04 AM

Thanks GW, that fire was almost as HOT as the chick that's sitting on my lap right now as I type (I wish! :frown: }

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
a b U Graphics card
September 6, 2003 10:26:12 PM

You know you wouldn't be feeling burning in your lap if you wore protection before dating!

Sounds like you need to visit your local clinic. :evil: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
September 6, 2003 10:29:08 PM

The thing about the specs is that GW also posted info that the people at VALVE like to run their tests and games on their laptops, so it should run ok on current hardware. The question originated from someone with a mobile R9000. So I think we'll be fine for the basics; however just don't turn AA/AF + Eye candy and expect much.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 6, 2003 11:11:10 PM

Since there aren't really any current releases that anywhere near fully utilize the features offered on the NV35 and R300 units, I wouldn't speculate about the end performance of upcoming titles. The HL2 E3 demo seemed to cruising along very nicely, and I bet that Valve was using a current high-end card (obviously in front of a fast PC, but...). Valve and ID have stated repeatedly that HL2 and Doom 3 will run very well, with all features enabled, on the current high-end cards, and they will run decent (obviously dependent on system specs) on mid-range cards with some of the features turned off. The Doom 3 test with the 5900U showed acceptable FPS even at high settings.
Even if these new games don't run well on a lot of systems, it's only because developers and publishers are trying to usher in a new standard of graphics, like when the original Quake was released. I think this crop of new games will run on the slow side for many, but they've delayed these games long enough and it's time to actually play them.
a b U Graphics card
September 6, 2003 11:21:04 PM

The HL2 demo at E3 was run on an ATI R9800 (don't remember if it was 128 or 256mb), mainly because of nV issues it seems.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 7, 2003 1:42:03 AM

Actually the E3 presentation was done on a 16:9 aspect ratio screen, and HL2 was run at 13xx by something (7xx?), no AA no aniso.

"Mice eat cheese." - Modest Mouse

"Every Day is the Right Day." -Pink Floyd
September 7, 2003 2:12:03 AM

I'll wager that the "7xx" is probably 768.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 7, 2003 2:12:45 AM

I didnt read the whole thread or see what others were recommending but this is an easy question.

$250 and under if you check the buyers guide.. Radeon 9800 non pro.

I just got one in and it runs great, within 10-15% of a Pro and $100 cheaper.

Nothing less is worth considering for DX9 games, you will need this much power or more.

Do it! Do it! Do it!

Feel like high school all over again?
:tongue:

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
September 7, 2003 3:39:33 AM

Quote:
Nothing less is worth considering for DX9 games, you will need this much power or more.


i agreed with your post except for this. I think people with a Radeon 9500 or better will do fine for DX9. Would Gabe Newell really design an engine that would run only on high-end cards, I severely doubt it. Also, DX8 cards should run many of the DX9 based games well because they won't have to use the bandwidth hungry PS2.0 engines. ATi's cards barely take a hit at all in PS 1.1 & 1.4 performance, but they do take a sizeable hit in PS2.0, and Nvidia's take an unperceivablely enormous hit in PS2.0. If you someone has a Radeon 8500LE or better, they should be run DX9 games just with only 90% of the eyecandy, they just don't have to worry about running slow in VS2.0 & PS2.0 because its not supported on those cards anyways. Now if your speaking of the games at the very end of the DX9 line, you may very well be right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not reccomending DX8 cards, but I don't think they'll be in bad shape for running Doom III, and HL2 well. Gabe Newell & John Carmack would be shooting themselves in the foot considering especially that the largest segment of currently owned Graphics cards are DX7 based thanks to Nvidia's GeForce 4 MX line [UFO_WARVIPER spanks Nvidia on the RUMP for mislabling the GeForce2 GTS]


My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 7, 2003 3:53:56 AM

Hey i like you name man, was wondering what lcd your using, i'm looking at some with response times at 16ms but most are 17 inch can i get bigger ones with same resp. time.

If he doesn't die, he'll get help!!!
September 7, 2003 5:40:45 AM

The latest THG article on the most recent 19" monitors reveals horrible gaming performance.

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September 7, 2003 6:20:28 AM

That number (response time, in ms) is important but just like with pretty much ANYTHING else, one number dosn't tell the whole story. There are 2 main lcd screen manufacturers (then a bunch of people put their plastic and name around them), one I think is hitachi, the other I forget (its in the THG review of lcd screens, the one before the 19" one).
Overall the 20ms response time LCDs (the screens of which are made by the OTHER major producer) are better.

In the words of the Worst Cisco Teacher Ever on the Face of this Earth, Mr. Flank: "Look it up!"

"Mice eat cheese." - Modest Mouse

"Every Day is the Right Day." -Pink Floyd
September 7, 2003 6:27:34 AM

The LCD on my laptop that I always use, hurts my eyes. Some reason, the 21-inch CRT monitors we have hanging around seem to bee much softer after continued usage. Maybe the LCDs on desktops are better, I've only been to a couple people's houses that actually have them, so I wouldn't know yet.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 7, 2003 11:00:18 AM

I totally agree with kinney. I too just upgraded to a 9800np and boy am I pleased! This thing runs anything I have unbelievably smooth with max settings and 4x AA and AF. -xp2400, 1gb PC2100- If you haven't already, go <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=1..." target="_new">here</A> and get it. $249 shipped.

Very comparable to 9700pro in performance but has the advantage of improved shaders etc. for better performance in future DX9 enhanced games. Really a no brainer if you want the best card that 250 dollars can buy.

--

"I'm a rageaholic."
(<i>starts crying</i>)
"I just can't live without rageahol." - Homer Simpson
September 7, 2003 5:55:51 PM

I agree with you said.
What I meant was I wouldnt use less, and at the least it will be the most comfortable choice.
In specific, 1600x1200 or able to turn on some AA/AF.
You can always count on those strange instances where the extra power comes in handy too.
For instance, my cousin plays CS in the CPL and with his GF4 4400 the smoke bombs still lag his system, thats a fast DX8 card on a DX6 game.

Also, the 9800 doesnt have the 1600x1200 power I wish it had but its good enough.

It sounds silly saying the 9800Pro/NP is the most comfortable choice, of course it is, its their flagship... and the fastest thing out. lol.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
September 7, 2003 6:10:38 PM

Okay, I see what yyour saying now. I think in HL2 on a 9800 you should be able to do some, but not much AF(4x at max). But on anything less than a 9700 probably won't get the benefits of some ansio.

I don't beleive any of today's card is gong to run <font color=red>HL2</font color=red> or <font color=red>DOOM ]|[</font color=red> well at 1600x1200 with max settings, especially with AA or AF enabled.

P.S., I didn't know you had a 9800 non-pro, I thought you had a GeForce3.



My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 7, 2003 8:26:41 PM

Quote:
The LCD on my laptop that I always use, hurts my eyes. Some reason, the 21-inch CRT monitors we have hanging around seem to bee much softer after continued usage. Maybe the LCDs on desktops are better, I've only been to a couple people's houses that actually have them, so I wouldn't know yet.


IMO computer LCDs plain out suck. They still won't come close to CRTs. I have yet to feel the same feeling as on a CRT, animation or color wise. It's either too bright, or the fonts are too often not sharp. I mean, I love the good picture the Mac LCD 19" has in my College 2D and Design classes, but I am not sure I could live with them. I move the windows and they become extremely blurry. I guess LCDs can be nice for workstations. But not for home use with gaming.

Plasma is the real deal man, boy those things rock.

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September 7, 2003 8:59:01 PM

Yeah, so nv needs to be supported, and I have faith in their driver development team. Eden, I may just get it b/c the quadro capabilities also.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 7, 2003 9:21:26 PM

Driver Dev team? They're dead man, they got NOTHING.

Supported? Why should you support people who want to SCREW YOU?
You and Papasmurf have this idealism that makes no damn sense. If a cult that endorsed violence and killing is going down finally, you're gonna support it because it needs it?!

Flame, WAKE UP, seriously, you have no credibility in the tech sector because of such blind faith.

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September 8, 2003 12:29:26 AM

What <i>I</i> choose to buy for myself and what I choose to reccomend to others are different things. People ask me for a 17" LCD and they say they need it so I tell em to get something like a CML174. Would <i>I</i> ever buy it? NO! Ever consider that I'm also more familiar with NV cards when it comes to mods and on the whole I know their drivers much better than Ati's, so it's convenient this way?
How much programming do you know?
Right now they're trying to get as much performance under certain rules now so they have to redo a bunch of their drivers and guess what? Given the interaction of so many components and softwares, it is no wonder that there will be bugs, but after this driver remodelling, I'm sure the drivers will get good. How'd Ati fix their problems after a few years?
I do beleive the DX9 performance and whatnot will shoot up. It's always been this way, and suddenly a feature gets enabled no one heard about and wham! Better performance.
In conclusion: My money, <i><b>I</b></i> choose how to spend it, and I speculate that the GF7 will be a good product.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by flamethrower205 on 09/07/03 08:29 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 8, 2003 12:46:46 AM

Didn't a bunch of Nvidia driver engineers swith, and go over to the ATI development team?

No matter where you go, there you are.
September 8, 2003 2:10:56 AM

I ain't good in programming, but since you got such a big ego as it is, would you dare to go debate against Dave in this forum?

Perhaps, just perhaps you will open up your mind after what he, who has experience on hands-on graphics language programming, will have to say.

Flame, you're wrong, just admit it.
Quote:
Ever consider that I'm also more familiar with NV cards when it comes to mods and on the whole I know their drivers much better than Ati's, so it's convenient this way?

"Oohhh oooh, I know only of Intels, but even when AMD is better, I'll recommend Intels, because I know best at their hardware, ooooh yaeaa!!!"

LAME.
Grow up Flame, this entire forum has seen the truth, except you and a few others.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</b></font color=blue></A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 09/07/03 10:11 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 8, 2003 2:17:55 AM

Quote:
Right now they're trying to get as much performance under certain rules now

LOL, I love to hear how a user like you who comes ever so rarely here, claims all of this like he still knows nVidia. Pray tell, those "certain rules", how legitimate are they?
So you like proprietary do you? You like a world where everyone gets in line for what big boss decided do you?
Quote:
and suddenly a feature gets enabled no one heard about and wham! Better

It's been done with the new FX drivers. Read the FX5900 article.

Quote:
and wham! Better performance.

Hmm, strange, I didn't know nVidia liked to lose so much profits and finally then they decide to attack. Of course, if you choose to believe that, one year later they could. 'But darn it, that let ATi get lotsa sales din it?'

Quote:
My money, I choose how to spend it,

Fine!
Be blind! The rest of us'll all get along quite fine here, the people who realize what's really better.

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</b></font color=blue></A>
September 8, 2003 3:01:47 AM

The point I wanted to make about the programming is that I hoped you had some experience and realized that when u write a complex program and have classes and all this other stuff interacting, bugs you never thought about happen. I don't need to argue with dave on this as I'm sure he's expereinced it, and I have not programmed graphics (except for playing around with making a graphics engine over the last few months). Could I learn necessary things to argue with him on that? Definetly, but right now I don't have the time or need.
With regards to the Intel vs AMD comment, I don't see very many drivers which I have to hack in hex for them, now do I?

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
September 8, 2003 3:06:03 AM

Ah I see, you're the all knowing God, right?
I saw the news that they'd have certain guidlines, etc, and see benches with the new drivers following these, and see different performance. Now if they were the same, we would see the same performance, right? So something changed. How much they stuck to these guidelines is a different story, but none the less the graphics drivers did change.
I also suppose that since the drivers were renamed it is no way possible that further performance gains can be made? I mean name is a limiting factor, <i>right??</i>
As for the profits, seemed like they faired pretty damn well with the GF3, and they did the same thing.
And fyi, I think you've got a large ego in thinking you're so high and mighty and right. You're not. You don't control people, you won't change my opinion, just like I'm not sending you a picture of myself and every accomplishment I've ever had.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by flamethrower205 on 09/07/03 11:07 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 8, 2003 3:10:52 AM

Quote:
would you dare to go debate against Dave in this forum?

I would:) 
Dave only hangs around here because there are certain forum members who will suck his dick on command.<bloated ego>


I help because you suck.
September 8, 2003 3:15:03 AM

Given a few months experience with programming graphics (like if I did it over the summer) I'd take him on. Right now tho it'd be like Eden trying to argue with me about quantum computers, not gonna happen.

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
!