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Best forum post yet on HL2

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September 13, 2003 9:17:26 AM

I found this anonymous post on an Anandtech article.
Nothing of revelation here but pretty much sums up a large portion of longtime followers of the GPU markets feelings.

Quote:
what is there to be mixed about? All I am saying is that we should wait for the 51.75 drivers. Nothing more. If they still suck, I'll go by a Radeon card. I am not an nVidia loyalist, and I can afford to buy another card if I want to.

What I didn't like was the way Valve came across. Maybe I am overreacting ... but it just seemed a little snotty and arrogant.

OK - so the PS 2.0 are faster on the Radeon. So what. I am confident that after the nexr driver set, they will STILL be faster. But, I am also confident that nVidia's will be much better than now, and good enough.

I don't want to start buying $300 pieces of hardware to play specific titles.

To all those who are kissing the ground Valve walks on I say this. Valve had essentially one game, and a bunch of variations of that game. Sure, it was a great game. And, I am sure they are all talented individuals. I'm sure HL 2 will rock. But, they are not one step away from Jesus and are not incapable of writing something that is not 100% optimal. Everyone just assumes that NOTHING in Valve's code could contribute ANYTHING to the nVidia performance defict. I'm not saying it does - but come on, at least it's something to consider.

<b>So all you dipshits running around thinking your Radeon cards are the [-peep-] and yapping that GF FX owners are somehow less than human - go to hell. Who gives a crap. nVidia has a long line of kick ass cards - ATI FINALLY came out with a good chip after all these years. Hope you enjoyed the wait.</b>

-anon

LOL. Yeah that pretty much says it.
I use ATI, but to all the ATI nerds, this is how the rest of us see you and your short sightedness.

Now that your done with my noninformative post, I wanted to say this post just struck a chord with me and had some good points in defense of NV.
Someones gotta play the devils advocate. :smile:

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Radeon 9800NP, Audigy, Z560s, MX500

More about : forum post hl2

September 13, 2003 2:36:14 PM

"OK - so the PS 2.0 are faster on the Radeon. So what. I am confident that after the nexr driver set, they will STILL be faster. But, I am also confident that nVidia's will be much better than now, and good enough"

That's a good reason to buy a product, faith that it will be better in the future.

LMAO!

<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
September 13, 2003 3:14:57 PM

There is good points in this post...

Did the post says that had already a LOT of time to improve their drivers?

I'm not anti or pro nVidia. I just think that the FX core is not delivering enough in comparison to the ATI R3XX core. I remember when the firts FX reviews went out. Every had the same comclusion : FX core is GOOD but it's not THE Radeon Killer.

Now, the drivers mature on both side... Catalyst gets bug fixes and performance improvment on a regular basis. nVidia is doing a great job too with the Detonator drivers.

And, of coure, if we only base our opinion on a single 3D engine we can be wrong. I can't wait to see bench and IQ comparison with Detonator 50 and Catalyst 3.8.

I wish this will clear the sky, at least for nVidia, because many "hardcore" gamers lost their faith in nVidia with the 3dMark03 story...

I know that many people don't even know about this story. Because so many people are buying hardware and never update their drivers. It's why nVidia sells TONS of chips, because they have a reputation of providing great GPU.

This was my little addition to this thread...

--
Would you buy a GPS enabled soap bar?
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September 13, 2003 3:27:48 PM

Quote:
So all you dipshits running around thinking your Radeon cards are the [-peep-] and yapping that GF FX owners are somehow less than human - go to hell. Who gives a crap. nVidia has a long line of kick ass cards - ATI FINALLY came out with a good chip after all these years. Hope you enjoyed the wait.

ATi has had good chips since the ORIGINAL Radeon. This is NOT their first good chip. Sure benchmark numbers were somewhat faster on Nviida products back then, but their scores were competitive since year 2000 or so.

Quote:
LOL. Yeah that pretty much says it.
I use ATI, but to all the ATI nerds, this is how the rest of us see you and your short sightedness.

I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for most of us members whom you call "ATi nerds". We are very VERY dissapointed with nvidia's <b>CURRRENT</b> line of products. We will go with nvidia any day if ATi pulls what nVidia has done. Also, enthusiast will go with whoever has the best product, be it ATi, nVidia, SIS, Matrox, PowerVR, Trident, or 3D Labs. However, of course the competitive performance based products continue to be offered solely by ATi & NVidia, & sometimes Matrox (The G400 was a pretty good card when they fixed the GL drivers). You know Trident who makes all those crappy cheapo cards? Well if they suddenly pop a product onto the market that's as good as what is currently offered by ATi's R300, I might consider going with them. When nVidia offers a product that has best price/performance ratio or fastest product, I would probably go with them.



My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 13, 2003 4:08:48 PM

But he does have a point the Radeon 8500 series was very VERY flakey in the beginning. Its a ATI legacy its been that way for a long time. Now look at em they are pretty damned good drivers.

Then we look at the silicon aspect ATI till the Radeon series was being slughted serverly in the GPU power house department. Again a legacy they shed away.

The only thing that bothers me more than the fact that nVidia is being slippery is how the ATI users are acting. It's like a new day for them God has spoken to them and said ATI is the one to follow. They are acting like ATI never had driver problems in the past, or stability issues with their silicon, or bad press regarding "cheats" in there drivers such as quack. Its very frustrateing from my point of-view as a nVidia Geforce FX user to get so man handled like this. Maybe its deserveing Ive never floated around too much in the Graphics section before maybe there is a lot of bent up rage that ATI users have been waiting to unlesh. But jesus I made the purchase for better or for worse I made it but to be insulted and mocked for my desicion isnt even close to the right IMO.

But ive seen this forum move and evolve as well, back in the day nobody but a few Intel guys wanted to get P4's everyone said it was garbage it needs special code to even compete yada yada yada. Now everyone less a few hardcore AMD fanboys recommend the CPU highly.

I guess what it really comes down to is the respect aspect for me I feel hurt by some of the statements and very uneasy about the rest. Well thats my peice someone will come up with something rude to say probably in the lines of your a [-peep-] idiot stfu you nVidiot.

-Jeremy

:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6940439" target="_new">Busting Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1228088" target="_new">Busting More Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
September 13, 2003 4:24:48 PM

Hear Hear!
Im a 5900Ultra user, it simply doesnt deserve the slagging off its receiving!
If for some reason i really felt Ati was leaps and bounds ahead of Nvidia, and Nvidia were an evil, cheating, turdy-card producing company who wanted users to spend a lot of money on sub-standard cards and play inferior-looking games, i would go straight out and buy a 9800pro.
But the point is, Nvidia have made some mistakes, and yes, the 9800 is the fastest card, but big deal!
There will always be a faster card, and if it was the blooming 5800 that was currently the dop dog, i wouldnt run around slagging off ATi at every whiff of an optimisation, as they try to play catch up!
Good on Ati for beating Nvidia, their current cards are amazing products. But the Nvidia cards are damned good too.

NO ONE can tell me the 5900Ultra is a shoddy product. I love it!

The only winners from all this are the consumers. More choice and better cards for all!!!

............................................
Render times? You'll find me down the pub...
September 13, 2003 4:30:07 PM

I haven't meant to hurt your feelings in any way. If I have, I apologize.

*UFO_WARVIPER hugs Spud*
*Spud stops crying*


My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 13, 2003 4:41:26 PM

Your welcome

*grasps Spud's hand for a firm handshake*

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
September 13, 2003 4:50:44 PM

personaly i kinda think Nvidia deserve the flaming they are getting

i dont agree with flaming Nvidia users though

Only reason i think that nvidia deserve the flaming is because of the fact that them needing a specific path that is different to the directX 9 path is increasing game development time and will probably mean that games from smaller developers will run badly on Nvidia cards

Also if gabe newell is correct and they try to cheat the benchmarks then they will deserve it for that (though this is still yet to be seen)
a b U Graphics card
September 13, 2003 6:29:33 PM

Nah, manI don't respect that poster at all. It's obviously a backtrack by someone who was fiercely LOYAL to nV (despite his comments), heck here I could say I'm no MATROX loyalist... but so what?
His arguments are based on assumption and personal animosity, and definitely alot of the arrogance that he falsely accuses Valve of having. Just look at the last paragraph, if that isn't nV PR material then I'd like to see something stronger that's said with a straught face. Wait? The R300 core has been out a year, and even then people like this JackA$$ were saying 'nV will respond, you wait, I'll get you back, and your little dog too!'.

I waited for my killer gaming card and got smacked. But at least I got throttled (by the R300) long enough before I needed/wanted to buy a card to come to my senses (but Surround-Gaming still Looks SOOooo COOL!) and chose the card that best suits MY, not Their, needs.
He has a modicum of truth in what he says, but it's surrounded in bile. Yes I'd love to see them do the tests all out (as Lars complained about time constraints I agree) and I would also like access to all possible drivers, not just official (although make damn clear these are optimized beta drivers, unproved and unreviewed). Until the DET50s get the scrutiny WHY should they be used. We are only now see very fluffy quick reviews of their performance (no photo-shoped comparisons anywhere yet), so to me they aren't viable without complete deconstruction of them. So it will be an addendum, well fine, we'll see it later. But since the CAT 3.8s according to Catalyst Maker are also supposed to be the Bee's Knees (did I really just write that? I'm not turning into my Dad I'm turning into my Granpa! [And do Bee's even have Knees?] arghh back to the main issue), who's to say that the CAT 3.8s don't push the bar even further and that the catch-up by the FXs falls way short again? What if the 3.8 gave you the option to lower precision from pseudo 32 (24) to 16 and pretend for benchmark sake (fool them silly benchmarks and bungholio addicts) that they were turned all the way up, would that please nV too?

Seriously I don't see any issue with Valve, hell they wasted all this time optimizing just for the FX crowd, why would they put in that (5X as long) effort and try to 'cripple' the architecture as the author pressumes? Valve is likely HIGHLY pissed off (as their slide mentions their customers might be) and really don't want to waste their time tryng to mollify Graphzilla. Seriously if nV and their legions don't learn from this then the term that rhymes with Cypriot suits them well.
Yes the jury is still out on HL2 we definitely need ALOT more testing (as I said in many other posts), however the reactions of the Fanbois is in and they are mad, defensive and just as arrogant as ever. The author might have had a good point up until the end, and then he quashed any credibility I afford him. The true GAMERS and Graphics cards fans are confused and hurt, and hoping that the DET 50s are all that people made them out to be (the TRUE Det FXs), and if they aren't that confusing will ikely turn to a sense of betrayal, especially if this becomes more common and the 'every 2-3' year upgrader just blew his allowance (or their paycheque on the kids rig) for something that may need to be replaced shortly (especially if it's whinning kids getting fragged into oblivion).

I don't understand the backlash by the people against Valve. I do understand the annoyance by the reviews at the constraints put in place by Valve, but hey like Lars sid, they were there for the infamous D]|[ benchies, and I don't rememeber alot of people complaining vociferously back then. They accepted that Carmack was a controlling individual who cared more about the game/engine than making people happy (which is the way it should be). This time when they got the same treatment nV's statement of the mythical Det 50s solving all and bringing harmony to the valley caused them to rebel and say 'Hey Valve/Gabe, explain yourself!'

Arghh, it's been interesting, but now I almost side with the rviewers, just to shut them UP! PErhaps each mention of the HL2 presentation and benchmarks should be preceeded by a warning "CAUTION: Work in Progress, Do not Over-react and keep your arms inside the vehicle at all times!"

Oh well, off to take a look at this year's line-up of ski stuff (when school starts the marketers come runnin') since the R420/RV380/NV40 are delayed 'til next year, I can buy buy buy (once the season starts). So hopefully I will escape the Valve bashing to return to the normal ATI and nV bashing; If you Bash Matrox, APE Bash YOU! :wink:

Oww, I haven't written a long post like that in a while, my knuckles hurt! Betcha YOUR eyes hurt too! <i>This post was brought to you by VISINE. MMmm Soothing VISINE!</i> :evil: 

This post was not editied for content, spelling, parasites or BS. Thanks for your support.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
September 13, 2003 6:45:07 PM

The thing is that ATI did get busted for Quack (and busted hard don't forget that they didn't get off lightly, heck YOU still rememebr it!), and they fixed their 'error', their drivers sucked, and they fixed their error. On the other hand every mis-step nV has made has been followed by PR (appologies [and THREATS]) and not by actually actions (SSDD). That's what really ticks off those who aren't in your nV camp. I'm not a FanATIc, but I definitely respect their porducts and actions right now. You're pissed at ATI's PAST, I (like many) am pissed at nV's ONGOING actions. Believe me if MATROX had a RadeonFX-Killer today I'd sell all you loyalists for scrap to get one, and show you what a true Fanboi sounds like (complete with pictures and sound).

Anyone who thinks that their company can do no wrong and can always patch things up while at the same time consistently getting <i>The Shaft</i>, gets what they deserve IMO.

The FXs aren't junk, anymore than the earlier Radeons aren't junk. However nV's PR about them is junk, and they are turning their drivers into junk (loss of user control) just to market to suckers through <i>cooked</i> benchmark scores.

Seriously I don't care what you buy. I'll tell it like it is and then you waste your money how you feel. I'll get my tittie and beer and you can get an FX5900U, followed by and FX5950, follwoed by the NV40, I'll stick with my weaknesses, who at least pretend to love me back (faithful beer company, don't ever change!)


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 13, 2003 6:53:46 PM

Phew that was one big post.

As an "Nvidiot" i purchased my card based on
1. DX8 power
2. Driver support
3. Big heatsinks :D  (check the MSI 5900 Ultra for yumness)
4. 3DSMax / gaming overall speed.
5. Image quality for my 22" iiyama (big resolutions)
6. Futureproofness (DX9 >:(  )

The problem being, the whole DX9 thing has scuppered my (and a lot of other peoples', i bet) chances of having a kick arse DX9 supporting card in a years time.
I prefer Nvidia to Ati, i guess im a fanboy, but i certainly wasnt closed to buying Ati. Here in the uk, there wasnt (at the time of purchase) too much cash differece either.
Actually, i guess im not a fanboy, as i would recommend ATI to my friends, even when i was myself buying the Nvidia card.

NV fans are not always stupid or misinformed, theres nothing wrong with liking a certain manufacturer. I knew ATI was better, but i prefer NV cards. I just do!

The reason im pi$$ed off is that NV promised my card would be a fully DX9 arse-kicker. And it looks like that was a lie. Ive said before if my card turns out to be a dog i will go ATI. I will try and get some benchies or demos to inform my opinion. (the Pixelshader thing in another post kicks my cards' butt :'(  )
But when the card was released. IT LOOKED LIKE THE MOST POWERFUL! And in many respects, it still is!

I hope i dont have to sell my card i really do! i like it.

............................................
Render times? You'll find me down the pub...
a b U Graphics card
September 13, 2003 6:59:43 PM

A friend of mine bought one of those early Radeons (I actually told him to simply get a RageFury on sale with VIVO, but the store clerk tricked him!). He still loves it and it likely has kept him (not a heavy gamer but a very casual one [he's a doctor no time except weekends])from needing an upgrade during these 'turbulent times'. He hasn't had any problems with it and it still plays Morrowind rock-solid (yeah it lags like all other cards do [even my R9600P] but it's a killer game, at least it's better then it was on my RageFury). In the end ALOT (probably the majority) of gamers will get away with and, not realising what they are missing, they will be VERY happy just being able to qualify for games with the Bare-minimum requirements.
'Yahoo, it'll play on my 32mb RageFury/GF2MX! It says it only need 32megs of video ram and a 600mhz CPU (thank god for via and my GigaPro)! What's this DX9, ahh that doesn't matter, I'll get THAT and I'm golden!'
Seriously that's how some people look at it. The only people even seriously ticked-off now (the others will learn later) at this benchmark are those, who despite people like Myself and Eden's warning, bought cards in anticipation of their future favourite game, now they feel burnt (despite alot of road-signs being out there). The one's who upgraded for the very best UT2K3 perfromance, etc. likely feel a little anger, but they will do what they have always done since the beginning of time... build a new system.

I don't thinik either line sucked until the FX, but I also don't think any line has been over-hype and over-stated as the FX either. It's still a good card (especially if it were released at the start of the DX8 era), it just doesn't live up to the hype, and it sometimes falters when compared to the opposition.

Anwyhoo, once again that's just my 2 frames worth.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
September 13, 2003 7:13:09 PM

I don't think you have to sell it (although now would be the time to do it if you wanted to sucker in the unsuspecting... :eek:  ... errr, I mean if you wanted to get top-dollar :wink: )

If you did your research you aren't an 'nVidiot', you just got burned. Brand loyalt is great up to a point. I Love Matrox cards, recommend them to friends and folk all the time, but I know their gaming limitations. I have had great experiences with the ATIs I've bought (usually on sale) and if it weren't for the AIW factor I likely would have got an nV (would've been my second) instead of the R8500DV. The problem is that you were dupped (like manyof the reviewers). YOU did your homework, but got burned, by really something few of us could have expected/predicted. I'm happy that my R9600P does well, but had the tables been turned I knwo I wold've felt very dissapointed (which was a slight bit of my initial reaction to GunMetal2 benchmarks [which [H] is now dropping due to it's perfmance quirks]), and I know I'd be smacking myself, and smacking ATI for having misjudged the future requirements despite their 'future-proof' statements. I got lucky, you did not, that's a bit of what it seems. Ther were some early indicators (3Dmk03, ShadeMark) that indicated the FXs weren't that good, but the validity of those findings in the ligh of all this other DX8/8.1 performance seemed insignificant. PErhaps we could've seen it coming, but up until very recently I've been recommending the FX5600URev.2 as an equal (and sometimes superior) product to the R9600P. Now I don't think I'll continue doing that, unless the person is dead-set on nV.
I truely think nV itself is to blame, and you unfortunately got burned. I can only hope for your sake that the potential 4X1 -> 4X2 aspects of the DET-FX 50s really does bring up performance without the penalty on IQ (or at least it may not be noticeable), the problem is that most things indicate that may not be the case.

In ny case, good luck, it's still an OK card, it's just not as good as nV sold it to you (or so it appears). For the current stuff though you will definitely be on par with the ATI line.
Another thing is to take solace in the words of the AquaNox/AquaMark team and hope that their view of things ( a little rosier ) hold true and that it's only a few applications/games where there will be a perfromance gap.
We shall see.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 13, 2003 7:25:18 PM

Aaah thanks G.G.Ape that made me feel a little cheerier. :) 
I guess i have been burned.
Im looking forward to the Aquamark benchies, hope my card does ok!
I hope the shader pipeline thing works out too, otherwise HL2 will be remembered as the game that didnt work properly for a long time for many gamers!

The performance could have gon either way.
The lucky guys are 9600Pro owners if it all turns out to be accurate, wowza at that price/performance.

Still im betting most problems will be sorted, its not like the cards are bad, just not as sweet as the ATi's.
Most major game releases get a big stink kicked up about hardware beforehand, and before users can take it home and judge with their own eyes, and fair comparisons.

Either that, or Ati users will be kicking my arse all over multiplayer maps for a while!!! :D 

............................................
Render times? You'll find me down the pub...
September 13, 2003 7:49:48 PM

Valves job is to make a good game. Make that game marketable to as many people as possible. Publicly criticizing a graphics card manufacturer doesn't seem very constructive to me. What are they doing?

P4 2.4c @ 3.0 ASUS P4P800 dx Geil Golden Dragon PC4000 2.5,3,3,6 250FSB 1:1 Radeon 9800 non-pro 2 Maxtor 60gig 7200rpm 8mb cach in raid 0 SB Audigy 2 Antec True 480
September 13, 2003 8:55:17 PM

Telling nVidia users "It's not our fault" when they find out it doesn't play as well as nVidia said it would.

I've got to admit I'm one of the fore-mentioned people. I've got my up-to-date PC and am still running my Radeon 64MB DDR ViVo. Sure I may not get the best scores in Q3, HL2 or D3 but I can still play BF1942 at a LAN Party as well as UT2002 and whatever Tom Clancy is calling his SWAT games. If I can't play the new games, I'm fine with that purely because I'm waiting for Warhammer Online and World of Warcraft to be released as these are the 2 games I'm gonna be spending most of my time on and when Warhammer Online is released in Q2 2004 and my graphic card isn't up to scratch, then and only then will I upgrade. I'll spend a few hundred quid buying the top of the range card and use it till I can no longer play the games I want to play and not when I can't play the "Today's Special" at maximum quality settings.

I'll be buying ATI though. I wouldn't class myslef as a fanboy but this card has done me well, I bought a cheap GF2 MX400 card for my other machine and took it back within a few days because I didn't like the settings options on the properties page and bought a Radeon VE which has worked fine and caused me no trouble. Radeon's have been good by me and I'll be good by them.
a b U Graphics card
September 13, 2003 9:00:14 PM

It's pretty simple, they are ensuring that they don't get people like yourself bitching about it when the benchmarks come out and say, why didn't you make it work for my card. Why, here's why. We spent 5X as much time making it playable for your card. VALVE did that, not for nV, but for YOU! Why did they bitch about nV, simple, most developers are pissed at nV and their desire for work-arounds and special code paths, and the push for CG and 'The way it's meant to be played', just to make their cards work in what is supposed to be a 'standard'. Valve obviously COULDN'T make it work much better on the FX hardware (which is nV's fault) or elese they would have (both ATI and nV wanted THIS title badly) for all the money they would have gotten from nV. However slamming a 'The way...' sticker on and then having it rock on the ATIs and hobble along on the FXs (which may change) would have made them look stupid and look like complete sell-outs, losing THEIR credibility and angering and ever growing number of ATI owners. One of the other reasons for this public humiliation, Valve doesn't get money from nV per person nV sells stuff to, Valve makes their money from the nV owners who buy their game. They are their focus. It's like saying, 'just a head's up folks'. This was also likely an attempt to pre-empt the nV Det 50 shell game that is about to occur. Will there be potential unlocked performance in the next release of DX9 as some seem to hope for, perhaps, but all views of the Det 50s so far show that the performance increase isn't that great and the IQ drop is very significant.

Valve owes nothing to nV, and why are you so surprised when nV went much MUCH further out of their way to try and discredit FutureMark. This business is fast paced and competitive, these things, happen, but only recently has there been so much activity at a cost to consumers (in more ways than one).

Valve did all they could to help nV owners, and really they shouldn't have to. DX9 is a standard, it's conept is to make things easier. I still wonder if the delay in release wasn't due to this whole 'optimizing' for nV customers. I'm glad they will be able to play HL@, but as an ATI owner it's time/money wasted to me.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
September 13, 2003 11:13:24 PM

Spud,

You forget...ATI users have always acted that way. But now Nvidia supporters ACTUALLY NOTICE them acting that way when before they didn't care. Now they HAVE to notice because of the touchiness of subject that has developed. ATI guys haven't changed...they're just saying, "see, we were right." <i><b>Which I remember Nvidia users doing after slaying 3dfx as well</i></b>. Nope...ATI supporters haven't changed...it's Nvidia supporters that have...their perceptions have changed and they are starting to see everyone on the other side of the fence frolicking and dancing in their green, green grass. One of these days they'll all get hungry enough to come across that fence...and ATI supporters won't hold a grudge...they'll welcome the X-Nvidia supporters on over and tell them to pull up a patch and cop a squat. Just remember that for the most part...it's shouldn't be an 'US versus THEM' concept with Nvidia and ATI....its should be an 'US versus THEM' when speaking of the customers and the vendors.

<font color=blue>other people's lives
seem more interesting
cuz they aint mine
</font color=blue>
<font color=green>Modest Mouse</font color=green>

TKS
September 14, 2003 12:20:07 AM

Grape, it's almost ironic, every now and then lately we still get people saying "What is Valve DOING!".
Honestly it is them who don't know jack. We have to talk to walls by repeating post after post with the same goddamn answer: VALVE OPTIMIZED AND SPENT 5 TIMES THE TIME FOR YOU NV USERS' SAKES AND YOU STILL COMPLAIN?!

Damn it, man, I think we should just let them whine. If Gabe feels there is something wrong with NV, there is only a few who will retaliate, the NV users who swear by NV.

And once again, we can all agree on one thing though: Should the Det50 NOT make the FX cards competitive, and I mean within a margin MAXIMUM of 10%, in ALL kinds of scenarios which include AA and Aniso, then at that point, the people who own ATis, or currently were withdrawing from losing hope in nVidia, will have all the right to walk the streets partying. Truly, this'll be the day nVidia did it, done, they're outta the DX9 battle, no more NV for a while. I am tired of giving chances, like you, and like many. This is the final chance I give NV for this DX9 battle.

Poor buyers who trusted the benchmarks on several websites like THG, which are respectable sites, got burned by nVidia later on. Are they stupid? Certainly not, they followed respectable and reputable advice. Fact is even the websites didn't predict it. Now they see it. Should the Det50s truly suck, no one should blame us or the website reviewers for NV's shortcomings. They screwed them badly by making them pay 100s more than the same performance by the competitor, if not better. And that sucks. Unfair to users who follow sane advice.

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</b></font color=blue></A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 09/13/03 08:25 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 14, 2003 10:25:55 PM

The question is, if nVidia don't perform with the next set of Dets do their customers have the right to return their items for a full refund? The H/W has not matched the spin once. They have been misled and under British Trading Standards "Trade Description Act" that's a prosecutable offence where the basic minimum is for the customer to be entitled to have their item refunded and at worst the company recieves a hefty fine and the person found responisble suffers a jail sentence.

I'm not sure how this works in other countries with regards to their trading standards regulations.
September 15, 2003 3:25:40 AM

I agree man, and would actually love it if for once someone stands up and sues.

Spud got ahold of leaked Det 50s and says they work very nicely in the PS2.0 shader test, up to 30% better.

Overall I do think they improved, but IQ is likely down, and it won't be up to 9800PRO speeds. Hopefully they'll be out tommorow.

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>Are you ugly and looking into showing your mug? Then the THGC Album is the right place for you!</b></font color=blue></A>
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