9800 Pro vs. 9800 non-Pro

sweatlaserxp · Sep 14, 2003

Can anybody break down the basic real-world performance differences between these two cards? I know its 325/290 vs. the Pro's 340/340, and I've also heard here and there that its performance is similar to a 9700 Pro. I also heard they can be oc'd to perform the same as the Pro. Basically, if I want to upgrade to a good GPU for DX9 apps is the 9800 non-Pro a good deal? I found a few brand-new on eBay for between $185-230, and I'm trying to figure out if this is a good bang-for-the-buck card.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Sep 14, 2003

Yes it's good bang for buck, especially when you add older DX8.1 titles to it's DX9 performance (to differentiate itself from the R9600P).

Think of the cards like this.

R9800 may OC to PRO levels.

R9800P will OC above Pro levels (how much varies).

But at the same time, is the potential small performance increase of the pro worth the usually large price premium?

Reall I think whatever is going to crush your R9800non-pro will also crush your R9800Pro, so why bother with the extra money except for BungholioMarks.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

sweatlaserxp · Sep 14, 2003

I don't think I will ever bring myself to pay $350-500 for a graphics card that will halve in price in less than two years. I've always been one to buy the best mid-range graphics card I can find- I'm not a 24-7 gamer, and I don't have a huge monitor so I usually play at 1024x768. I'm still using my Ti4200 and I'm impressed by the performance in Call Of Duty. I'm torn between the 9800 and the 9600 Pro- the 9600 benchmarked impressively in HL2, but I'm worried that in many apps it may not be the jump in performance that I want over my current graphics card.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Sep 14, 2003

If you're currently running a GF4ti, then wait. You're not going to stress that card for a whioel, and even in the short term you've got an FX5700 and an R9600Pro and R9800Pro replacement coming out. All of which will knock down prices. Wait at LEAST until those come out/benchmarked.
And likely you wont' notice the just in performance unless you do notice IQ. the GF4 in basic apps at medium quality ownz most things out there. Even in HL2 you may or may not notice much of a difference in performance. Definitely wait for the next sets of cards. The best bet would be to wait 'til the card games are running at an unaceptable level on your rig.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

sweatlaserxp · Sep 14, 2003

I've seen a few 9800"SE" cards on eBay. Is the "SE" ATi's term for non-Pro?

ltj311 · Sep 15, 2003

NO. The SE is an underclocked 9800nonpro.

I hope I can help you some since I just recently went from a ti4200 64mb to a 9800nonpro. You won't be sorry! The bump in performance is pretty amazing. This card runs beautifully.

I got it for $249 shipped at Newegg. You are maybe losing like 5-10% on the pro version, but if you are that worried about it, you can oc this card close to 9800pro speeds. I have 3.3ns memory and was able to safely oc this card from 325/580(default) to 375/634(and those aren't even the ceilings my card could reach).

Also keep in mind that the 9800np performs very closely to a 9700pro but with enhanced pixel shaders for future DX9 games.

The 9800np imo is the best high-end budget card.

If you do go with the 9800np, make sure it has 8 rendering pipelines.

Cheers.

--

"I'm a rageaholic."
(starts crying)
"I just can't live without rageahol." - Homer Simpson

lhgpoobaa · Sep 15, 2003

Pro = 380/340
nonpro = 325/290

You still get the majority of the performance of a pro with the nonpro, but at a fraction of the cost.
You will get some overclock out of the nonpro, but unforunately the nonpro uses 3.3ns ramchips, which limit the ram OC to 310-320Mhz.
The core though may well OC up to Pro levels.

For someone wanting performance without an insane pricetag, the R9700nonpro, R9700pro and R9800nonpro represent good value.

All these cards have the full number of pipelines and 256bit mem interface so they smoke the R9600 and R9500 series cards.

(and by the looks of it the Nvidia cards in DX9 games too!)

I am not a AMD fanboy.
I am not a Via fanboy.
I am not a ATI fanboy.
I AM a performance fanboy.
And a low price fanboy.

Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.

Crashman · Sep 15, 2003

No, the SE has half of it's rendering pipes disabled, it is in fact a 9500 NON-Pro with 9800 software enhancements. It's a truely crappy card.

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Crashman · Sep 15, 2003

SE isn't just underclocked, it only has 4 pipelines! It's identicle as far as I can tell to the 9500 NON-pro.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

sweatlaserxp · Sep 15, 2003

Sounds like a crap card. I believe I saw a Sapphire 9800 SE on eBay for $185, which actually is a ripoff if it's as underpowered as you say. It shouldn't bear the 9800 nomenclature. Imagine the poor sucker buying that thing! I think I'll go with a Built By ATi 9800 just to play it safe- eBay is always a little sketchy.

kinney · Sep 15, 2003

The 9800np imo is the best high-end budget card.

Ah, thank you. I've been saying this for a long time now and finally eveyone here at Toms caught on.

I thought the Firingsquad review was going to be the big rush for NPs but it took even longer.

The 9800NP is a great deal, its not that much cheaper than a elcheapo 9800Pro, but its the idea of $300 for a video card that turns me off.
And if you can get within the $300+ video card range for $250 or less with around a 10% (unnoticable) performance loss then more power to us.

Its basically like ATI is losing $50 in favor of stopping a FX sale, because I don't see much real difference in the NP/Pro besides slightly faster ram.

And if you buy two 9800s like I did, you save $100. For an avid gamer, thats plenty of horsepower for the entire DX9 era.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Radeon 9800NP, Audigy, Z560s, MX500

Crashman · Sep 16, 2003

Around the web (at REAL sellers) the 9800SE goes for around $195, while the 128MB 9500 Non-Pro goes for $130. THESE ARE THE SAME CARD as previously stated, so why pay 1/3 more?

Heck, the 9600 Pro (128MB full version) goes for around $180, so which would you rather have?

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

baldurga · Sep 16, 2003

Then the "9800" tag should be removed. That's lying IMO. ATI has done it wrong this time. Why they (manufacturers) have always to disappoint us?

Still looking for a good online retailer in Spain :frown:

sweatlaserxp · Sep 16, 2003

I've arrived at these for the current lowest prices I can find:

9800 SE @$180
9800 NP @$230-35
9800 Pro 128 @$290

eBay seems to have the best prices. By the way, several times I came across a Sapphire 9800 "Lite". What the hell is that?!

cleeve · Sep 16, 2003

I believe Sapphire's "Lite" has meant reduced memory clocks in the past... but I wouldn't be surprised if this was how they differentiated the 9800 SE's in their lineup, so beware...

The SE's are NOT the same card. They are gibbled down to 4 pipelines from 8, just like the old 9500 non-pros... so take that into account. They are not 9500 non-pros because they have the R350 core and not the R300 core... but that makes very little difference.

They can be softmodded to 8 pipes again, but I would expect the success rate to be about 50%, like the 9500 non-pro mods were.

Also note that the 9800SE has a 128 bit memory interface (could be modded to something like a 9500 PRO), and the 9800SE PRO has a 256 bit memory interface (could be modded to a true Radeon 9800 non-pro)

------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529

Crashman · Sep 17, 2003

The R350 core is nothing more than the R300 Revision 2. It has no new features, the only differences were that some hot spots were fixed so it could clock higher. In CPU terms, it's not like comparing the P4 Willy to the P4 Woody, it's like comparing the PIII 700 cBO to the PIII 1000 cCO. So it's not a "new" chip. All the "new" features are done in software when the driver recognizes the card.

So what do we have with the 9800SE? It's clocked down to 9500ish speeds, so those fixes no longer count. It has 4 pipes disabled. The driver will recognize the card and turn on new features, so in this case it's nothing more than a software hacked 9500np. Same memory, PCB, etc.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Crashman · Sep 17, 2003

They SHOULD rename it, but here's the problem:

When they cut the memory bus from 256-bit to 128-bit, they renamed the 9700 a 9500 Pro. When then disabled half the pipes, they named it a 9500.

Going by those naming schemes, the 9800 with half the memory bus would be called a 9600 Pro, and the 9800SE would be called a 9600 non-pro. But the 9600 already exist, using a completely different chip!

Perhaps they could have called it a 9500 Plus. But without the "9800" in the name, you wouldn't expect the newer feature revisions. So they went dirty and named it the 9800SE.

So far I've been seeing ALL the late build date 9500np cards supporting the driver hack to make them into a 9500 Pro or 9700np, depending on the PCB. And I've seen NONE of the 9800SE cards working with that hack, except one that a review site tested. These observations came from reading user reviews at Newegg. Since a 9700 can be driver hacked into a 9800, and a 9500np 256-bit card can be driver hacked into a 9700, and because the 9500np is more likely to work with the other 4 pipes enabled, you're more likely to make a 9800 out of a 9500np than a 9800SE.

Yet the 9800SE cost 1/3 more than the 9500np.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

homer · Sep 18, 2003

whats the diff between a 9800se and a 9800 np? where can I get a np?

homer · Sep 18, 2003

woop, half that question was answerd up there

Crashman · Sep 18, 2003

Your answer in a box, this is the simplest explaination I can think of:

The 9800SE is nothing more than the 9500 NON-pro Rev. 2. The 9800np (non-pro) is an underclocked 9800 Pro, with full 9800 Pro features.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

homer · Sep 18, 2003

but where can I get a non-pro? I cant find an online for sale.

Crashman · Sep 18, 2003

OMG! It's been killed! Not to fear, they're still listed on Pricewatch by using the "not SE" key. You'll find them <A HREF="http://www.fticomputer.com/" target="_new">Here</A>, <A HREF="http://www.pcrapids.com/" target="_new">Here</A>, and quite a few other places.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

TheSilverBack · Sep 18, 2003

This sucks ;(

all the non-pro 8-pixel pipeline 9800's that I find are $275.00 and up.

What happened to the $220.00 non-pros

sweatlaserxp · Sep 19, 2003

These guys have already explained the differences- the 9800 Pro and Non-Pro have the 8-pixel pipeline and 256-bit mem. interface. The 9800 SE has a 4-pixel pipeline. Go on eBay, narrow your search to the computer section, and type in "Radeon 9800". A lot of Pro's will show up along with a few Sapphire "SE" ones, but some of them just say "Radeon 9800 128Mb", and if it's "Buy It Now" the going rate should be around $245. They'll have a picture of the box- it says "9800" without a Pro next to it. That's the one you want. E-mail the seller and have them check the box to make sure. I don't think that ATi ("built by ATi) manufactures their own version of the SE... at least I haven't yet seen one.

Crashman · Sep 19, 2003

I was seeing them on pricewatch for as little as $240 including shipping. You could search the whole database "9800 not 9800SE not SE" or refine your search even more.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

9800 Pro vs. 9800 non-Pro

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