Well, I've been pondering some of this I hate nvidia or i hate ATI BS. Note: BS stands for Bull Shark. I don't think that Nvidia is in quite as bad of shape as many people think, and ATI is not as superrior as many people think. I personally do not currently owne an ATI card, but i have in the past. They are both good companies, usually. Anyhow, look at it this way. In doom III the super slow and flawed fx beats the Radeon in pertty much every aspect. I know that D3 is not DX8, maybe half and half or full DX9. But it gets creamed in HL2 and has poor performance and many grafical anomalies in Aquanox 2. So if your with me on this one, i think that DX9 is simply very sensitive to the way the cards drivers are optamised for the game engins running on it. It's true that the 9700's and 9800's did perform perform well in D3, but they were not as fast as the fx. According to tom, there were no problems with either card as far as flaws or driver cheats or reduced quality goes. Only time will tell.
Nvidia & ATI Fallen Heroes
- Thread starter The_Thing
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Doom3 is OpenGL. And the reason nVidia is doing so good in Doom3 is because the game is strictly optimized for nVidia cards, are we to believe that 5600ultra is better than 9800pro? So basically what i'm saying is i'm not with you, and please don't say things without some knowledge on the subject. I'm not saying the FX is that bad, it's just not worth the cost.
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ufo_warviper
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First of all, Doom 3 is not DX9, or DX8. It's OpenGL.
Second of all, Carmack stated that he had to lower the Floating Point Precision from 32-bit all the way down to 12-bit for Doom III. Fortunately, for DOOM ]|[, the floating point precision isn't as important as it normally would be in other games for visual quality. In fact, when inquired about the probs that Nvidia had in DX9 with vertex and pixel shaders, he admitted it was the same case for OpenGL with the shaders. He had to use vendor specific rendering paths to accomplish the performance that Nvidia did gain in Doom III. On top of that, Carmack says that coding for vendor specific instructions sets is a pain in the arse and will not be there to rescue Nvidia again in the future. So obviously, both Gabe Newell and John Carmack are dissapointed with Nvidia's GeForce FX cards.
3rd of all, We don't HATE nvidia. We hate the GeForce FX, or in otherwords the NV3X. We aren't posting a bunch of BUll Shark like it seems. I know it could really easily come across that way, but we are dissapointed right now with nVidia currently. Of course, as always, are opinions of nVidia are suseptible to change and indeed probably will if Nvidia gets their act together.
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
Second of all, Carmack stated that he had to lower the Floating Point Precision from 32-bit all the way down to 12-bit for Doom III. Fortunately, for DOOM ]|[, the floating point precision isn't as important as it normally would be in other games for visual quality. In fact, when inquired about the probs that Nvidia had in DX9 with vertex and pixel shaders, he admitted it was the same case for OpenGL with the shaders. He had to use vendor specific rendering paths to accomplish the performance that Nvidia did gain in Doom III. On top of that, Carmack says that coding for vendor specific instructions sets is a pain in the arse and will not be there to rescue Nvidia again in the future. So obviously, both Gabe Newell and John Carmack are dissapointed with Nvidia's GeForce FX cards.
3rd of all, We don't HATE nvidia. We hate the GeForce FX, or in otherwords the NV3X. We aren't posting a bunch of BUll Shark like it seems. I know it could really easily come across that way, but we are dissapointed right now with nVidia currently. Of course, as always, are opinions of nVidia are suseptible to change and indeed probably will if Nvidia gets their act together.
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
In the past i agree that ATI cards were crap, bad drivers also. But ever since the R300 (Radeon 9700,9500) ATI's been beating nVidia, now ATI is saying they're going to release 1 driver per month. ATI has improved a LOT, while nVidia didn't improve much because they think if they can't achieve something, then nobody else can.
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GeneticWeapon
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Waite till I catch <b>you</b> not knowing what your talking about. I'll be an even bigger dick to you, then you just were to this guy...
<--- Winner of the Sept. Oklahoma Quake3 championship.
Sponsored by Nvidia
<A HREF="http://www.okgg.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=8" target="_new">http://www.okgg.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=8</A>
RUNNNN, jump back in my little overclocking corner. I feel not welcome in the real world.
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU
The game Doom3 is using CloseGL and apparently ATI card doesn't support that. And in Half Life 2 ATI cards suck big time, 9800pro only beats the 5200ultra by 0.1 frame at 12/10 resolution.
UMM, I think i'm drunk.
Coolsquirtle can i have a beer, since i'm a nVidia fanboy now.
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by scottchen on 09/23/03 09:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
UMM, I think i'm drunk.
Coolsquirtle can i have a beer, since i'm a nVidia fanboy now.
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by scottchen on 09/23/03 09:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
coolsquirtle
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pats scottchen
it's okay
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
it's okay
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
coolsquirtle
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now u think oh~ dx9 is only on HL2
12 months later
oh dx10 is only on HL3
of course every game is going to start using dx9
Doom3 is special because Carmack is special and rich too
And u guys have to get this straight
FX5900 is only SLOWER than 9800pro
FX5900 is NOT SLOW
just because one thing is worse than another doesn't mean the worse thing sucks it just means it's not as good
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
12 months later
oh dx10 is only on HL3
of course every game is going to start using dx9
Doom3 is special because Carmack is special and rich too
And u guys have to get this straight
FX5900 is only SLOWER than 9800pro
FX5900 is NOT SLOW
just because one thing is worse than another doesn't mean the worse thing sucks it just means it's not as good
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
ufo_warviper
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NO! Here at THGC we don't serve the weak stuff. We drink scotch and whiskey, and the occasional vodka and moonshine.
*Throws scottchen a jug of scotch*
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coolsquirtle
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what are u talking about UFO
bEER IS KING HERE
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
bEER IS KING HERE
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
ufo_warviper
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But the 9600 Pro, would make me think twice about purchasing a 5900 Ultra. I know they are kindof close in performance, but the fact that the 9600 Pro (mid-range price) often beats the 5900 Ultra("high-end") in DX9 is enough to make me convince most gamers to go with ATi except for the TI4200 for the budget gamer. Now if the 5900 Ultra sold for $130 or $170 that would be an interesting price range for this product. Otherwise, its not even worth blinking at. Its performance is terrible for a "flagship" model. It doesn't even offer a decent bang for buck ratio. So, in the end you pay $400 for the performance that can be had for $130 or $160. In addition, ATi's line of products will have better visuals. Of course you know all this CoolSquirtle.
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
That was some nice Scotch. anybody from France here? could they smuggle me some wine that's more than 25yrs old? I'm willing to pay 1 dollar US for that.
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU
-Intel PIV 2.4C @ 3.84G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800pro @ 490/780 -SB audigy -80G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 Ultra ATA-133 hdd -450 Enermax PSU
Hi ThE_ThInG,
You said, "DX9 is simply very sensitive to the way the cards drivers are optamised for the game engins running on it."
I think a better way to state the current situation is that, as 3d graphics become more complex the hardware and software will become more complex. It requires close adherence to the industry standard Api's such as DX9. Nvidia tried to go its own way and they are paying for it. Ati adhered closely to DX9 design requirements and they are getting paid for it.
Let's set aside the performance issues that Nvidia has with DX9. Where Nvidia has really fallen down is on their credibility. Ati has not made as many misteps as Nvidia recently. Ati has executed better on their promises of not cheating and improving driver reliability. Nvidia has made promises of not compromising quality for performance and seems to be breaking that promise (in the beta drivers anyway). I think I am being very charitable to Nvidia because I could say more.
Nvidia has fallen and Ati is the HERO of The Moment.
Thats my take any way.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by SPAM on 09/23/03 11:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
You said, "DX9 is simply very sensitive to the way the cards drivers are optamised for the game engins running on it."
I think a better way to state the current situation is that, as 3d graphics become more complex the hardware and software will become more complex. It requires close adherence to the industry standard Api's such as DX9. Nvidia tried to go its own way and they are paying for it. Ati adhered closely to DX9 design requirements and they are getting paid for it.
Let's set aside the performance issues that Nvidia has with DX9. Where Nvidia has really fallen down is on their credibility. Ati has not made as many misteps as Nvidia recently. Ati has executed better on their promises of not cheating and improving driver reliability. Nvidia has made promises of not compromising quality for performance and seems to be breaking that promise (in the beta drivers anyway). I think I am being very charitable to Nvidia because I could say more.
Nvidia has fallen and Ati is the HERO of The Moment.
Thats my take any way.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by SPAM on 09/23/03 11:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
coolsquirtle
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of course, like i said i'll change my sig once one out of the two things happens
1. ATi introduces aBox
2. Volari offers vBox with Bling Bling and good REALISTIC performance
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
1. ATi introduces aBox
2. Volari offers vBox with Bling Bling and good REALISTIC performance
Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
ufo_warviper
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I couldn't agree more.
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
1080jibber
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I think you're right about the companies, as far as finances go nvidia isn't doing too bad. They have been screwing things up lately with the seemingly endless fx scandal, and they did lose the xbox contract but average joe doesn't know that. It's in the enthousaist/gaming community that nvidia is really losing the war, but at the moment that isn't hurting their bottom line TOO much, although that could change if they keep this crap up. Ati is doing alot better than it was 2 years ago, but is at the moment in no position to take a substantial portion of the market share away from nvidia. I'm dissapointed in nvidia. I think that the fx architecture sucks, and was basically an attempt by nvidia to make dx9 proprietary for them in their whole " the way it's meant to be played" propaganda. Ati is doing a great job, and I hope they keep it up. I think it's great for nvidia to finally have some real competition. Having some fire under your arse always keeps you on your toes!
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I keeps on excepecting GW to come back and scream at me, because he said he'll be a di*k to me if i say something that's completely wrong.
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cleeve
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I think it's important to remember that those Doom3 benches were done quite a few months before Doom3 is to be released.
Ati publically stated that they were uninformed about the benchmarking and that their drivers were nowhere near ready for Doom3.
To be fair, this was close to what happened with HL2 and Nvidia... but the difference is that the HL2 benches were released only 1 month before the actual game is ready.
I wouldn't be so sure that final performance of Doom3 on an Ati card will be as horrible compared to the GFX when it's actually released... which will be a few months yet...
------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529
Ati publically stated that they were uninformed about the benchmarking and that their drivers were nowhere near ready for Doom3.
To be fair, this was close to what happened with HL2 and Nvidia... but the difference is that the HL2 benches were released only 1 month before the actual game is ready.
I wouldn't be so sure that final performance of Doom3 on an Ati card will be as horrible compared to the GFX when it's actually released... which will be a few months yet...
------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529
coolsquirtle
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nVidia cards will run Doom3 faster, live with it.
RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5950ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
waiting for aBox~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5950ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
waiting for aBox~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ufo_warviper
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Yeah, faster with BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS 12-bit Floating point precision and vendor-specific rendering paths.
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
cleeve
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Oh, I have no doubt that the NV3x based cards will run Doom3 faster, squirtle.
As a matter of fact, I'm counting on it.
And frankly, If you don't plan to play other DX9 titles but want to play Doom3 on the cheap, the 5200 might be the ultimate choice. Hell, the 9600 PRO barely beats it in the beta benches.
But I do think that by the time Doom3 is released, Radeon 9xxx based cards will perform much more favorably than they did in those beta benches.
Only time will tell I suppose.
(By the way, I still believe my modded 9500 PRO has a good chance of beating the 5600 ULTRA when the game comes out. Heheh.)
------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529
As a matter of fact, I'm counting on it.
And frankly, If you don't plan to play other DX9 titles but want to play Doom3 on the cheap, the 5200 might be the ultimate choice. Hell, the 9600 PRO barely beats it in the beta benches.
But I do think that by the time Doom3 is released, Radeon 9xxx based cards will perform much more favorably than they did in those beta benches.
Only time will tell I suppose.
(By the way, I still believe my modded 9500 PRO has a good chance of beating the 5600 ULTRA when the game comes out. Heheh.)
------------------
Radeon 9500 (modded to PRO w/8 pixel pipelines)
AMD AthlonXP 2000+
3dMark03: 3529
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