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ATI9800Pro have problem with CS in Directx mode?

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October 15, 2003 9:57:31 PM

in Directx mode, the near back ground is lagging and farther back ground looks alright
this issue can be notice when you do side walk in Counter strike

however, under openGL mode theres no lagging problem, yet the FSAA and Aniso isn't functioning under OpenGL mode

this issue happened in Counter strike and the Dragon test in 3Dmark2001se

anyone?


http://mp3.com/dxl&lt;P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dxl on 10/15/03 09:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 15, 2003 9:59:41 PM

Radeons + CounterStrike = Bad News

<b>I help because you suck</b>
a b U Graphics card
October 15, 2003 10:29:59 PM

What's this Counter.... Strike... you speak of?

I don't see it on the shelves of my local E-lektroniks store. Do I need to send in Cheerio box tops? Was there a First-Strike that warranted a Counter-strike?

Is it anything like Combat on the Atari? That won't play on my Radeon either! Stoopid ATI cardz!

Oh well, I'm gonna go home now and have some so called, ... <i>Iced.... Cream</i> - Monty Burns

MMmmmmm Heavenly Hash!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
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October 16, 2003 1:56:20 AM

really?
you have the same issue??
theres a few other games will do that as well
especially when you side walk in Counter stricks you can see the issue with Directx drive.

my setup
ASUS A7N8X
xp3200+ (218x10.5)
two KINGSTON HYPERX PC3500 512MB 184PIN(218mhz, at 2 3 3 7)
segate 120g 8mb 7200rpm ATA100
segate 80g 2mb 7200rpm ATA100
creamware pulsar 2
radeon 9800pro 128mb
LG 16X BLACK DVD-ROM
LG GCE-8520B BLACK CDRW 52X24X52
1.44MB BLACK 3.5IN FLOPPY DRIVE
zalman 400w power
ZALMAN CNPS7000A-ALCU
ZALMAN ZM80C-HP FANLESS VGA HEATPIPE
two VANTEC STEALTH CASE FAN 80MM
ANTEC LANBOY case
SUNBEAM 12INCH BLUE COLD CATHODE LIGHT

any conflicts?

anyone else?

http://mp3.com/dxl&lt;P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dxl on 10/15/03 10:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 16, 2003 2:01:24 AM

you really don't know that game?
it's one of the most popular online game
a Halflife mod

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 16, 2003 2:10:35 AM

I have 2 possible suggestions for you at the moment:

1. Donwload the latest version of Catalyst (ver. 3.8)
2. Make sure "Application Preference" is <b><font color=red>NOT</b></font color=red> selected under the Graphics Tab settings for your Radeon card for Ansiotropic Filter & Full Scene Antialiasing.

I would try both :o )

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
October 16, 2003 2:38:57 AM

HL engine is based on quake 2 so it is geared toward OpenGL, the DX mode is really buggy(visually it is worse than OpenGL).

And AA/AF works fine on my 9500pro, although due to dodgy coding in 1.6, 1.6 likes to lower frame as low as 30 sometimes. :frown:
October 16, 2003 2:41:34 AM

i'm using the latest Catalyst (ver. 3.8)
nothing is set to Application Preference already

which ATI card do you have?
no problem at all?

i can run openGL yet, the Ansiotropic Filter & Full Scene Antialiasing won't be functioning even i set it to FLL setting under Catalyst driver

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 16, 2003 2:45:08 AM

I run a Mobility Radeon 7500C on My Dell Inspiron 4150 Laptop & I have had no problems at all with Half-Life or one of its modifications, Day of Defeat. So, I would not know why Radeons would supposedly spell trouble for CS.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
October 16, 2003 2:46:45 AM

so you mean u have problem running DX mode with CS as well?
so you use OpenGL?

i have some other games with this kind of problem, some won't

the OpenGL AA/AF works great with Seriou sam.

i'm playing counter strike 1.5, if i install 1.6 will i be able to play on 1.5's sever?
1.6 bad?

do you notice the back ground is lagging in the Dragon test in 3Dmark2001se?
when i first test my pc in 3dmark2001 version1, the issue is present but not as bad as i update the newest driver, yet when i set my driver back.... still the same bad issue in dragon test.

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 16, 2003 2:50:15 AM

i'm afraided that i have got the bad ATI 9800pro production......

i bought my new with not working 9800pro so i bring my pc back and changed another mobo and get a working 9800pro......

i can't return or fix it now since i'm using the fanless heatsink...
no over clocking.

http://mp3.com/dxl
a b U Graphics card
October 16, 2003 4:27:43 AM

I was being Ironic.

<i>"Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was getting tired of being stared at."</i> -Steve Martin

It's more of an inside joke about CS issues on NEW cards!

Now if only I could get my COMBAT cartridge to fit in my Slot-loading DVD drive! :tongue:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 16, 2003 10:27:42 AM

whahahahah!!!!!!

i m gonna make u an offer u cant refuse.........
how abt u swap tht 9800 pro with the tnt2 of mine........
runs cs like a charm...........since ur being honest
i wont charge a dime for the excahange!!!

what say u??
a b U Graphics card
October 16, 2003 3:36:34 PM

Exactly my point. :wink:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 16, 2003 4:08:03 PM

Yes, CS in dx mode doesnt render properly on my 9500pro. Graphic looks a bit blurry, no bullet mark on the wall etc...(its engine is OpenGL based, what do you expect...)

I ran 1.5/1.6 on cat 3.2/3.4/3.7 so far, AA/AF works for me in OpenGL. Havent tried the 3.8 yet, so maybe it could be a driver related problem so you should try out older CATs.

1.6 is pretty [-peep-], buggy+ct's new toys owns t hard when abuse to the max. You can still play 1.5 after you install 1.6 until Valve decide to pull the plug on WON system...

ps. havent ran 3dmark2001 for ages, but from my memory i cant remember any lag.
October 18, 2003 12:20:02 AM

thankz

but i just realize when i run the Half life2 demo
i get the same problem
and when i run serious sam in DX mode, same problem

you will see the closer back ground is lagging (top part will move slower than down part of the graphic when moving side to side

no prblem with hitman two, homworld1 and 2, start war games, mac worrier4

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 18, 2003 8:22:43 AM

hi dxl
i have a very similar setup to you same mobo cpu & mem
but my 9800pro runs fine for about 2mins then the screen just goes black in any 3d game
im starting to think its maybe an issue with the ati & the mobo
anyone else running an 9800pro on a asus a7n8x
what mobo drivers you running ive got 2.45 version
October 18, 2003 10:25:58 AM

in mark's case, i would try to use a different power supply. It could be that your video card isnt getting enough power when running 3D games.(3D games=more power demanding).

As for dxl i think the problem lays somewhere in the software...

PS. maybe a system reinstall will fix this... :frown:
October 18, 2003 2:23:37 PM

2.45?!
when did u get ur mobo?
i have version 2.0 for my BIOS and it's just a bit more than a month ago when i bought it

what is ur power supply's output?
is ur running the same amount of things like me
you would better go 350w at least

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 18, 2003 2:35:35 PM

no 2.45 is the driver version
i think my mobo is version 1.03 one of the first
i think my prob maybe psu related (just ordered a new enermax)
have you sorted your problems yet ??
im running an enermax 450 but its 2 years old & mybe a bit knackered


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by mark_h on 10/18/03 10:46 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 18, 2003 3:37:16 PM

Not just counter strike now.... it's lots DX games.... not all....

http://mp3.com/dxl
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2003 2:06:19 AM

Right, alot of DX games from what era? Gimme some examples.

Games like CS should simply be abandoned by the Graphics card companies. The makers of the games themseleves have abandoned it, so why shouldn't they? I don't car how 'popular' it is, so is mahjong, and I don't want ATI or nV to waste one minute worrying about that on the newer cards. CS players should buy a $100 rig with a GFMX card and then they'd be happy. I want my $300+ card to work wih HALO, UT2K3, Morrowind, ETC. not some second hand mod too old to be worth caring about.
I really don't care how many people like playing it, the companies need to look to the future and make the NEW games and features work best, not he old ones tha play just about as well on onboard graphics, especially when the people who made said game don't even support it anymore.

So show me all the lotsa DX games.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 19, 2003 10:19:35 AM

First, if you are using the 3.8s get rid of them.

Secondly, CS loves my radeon 9800pro.

I use the 3.7 cats under opengl, 6x AA and 16x AF.. never dips below 60FPS and usually close to 100FPS all the time.

I dont know about past issues but I have never encounted any issues with CS and my radeon.
If you are using the 3.8s check out my thread on current issues with them.
<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">Click</A>

-----
1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 10:47:01 AM

What DX games are you asking that guy to produce for you? I've been gaming on the PC almost exclusively since the mid to late 80s.. I can probably name some for you.

You have the right to your opinion but ignoring games in the league of CounterStrike and Everquest is very stupid for a GPU maker.

Many people buy a 9800Pro/5900Ultra in hopes of speeding up these old games (even though the idea is absurd), they are still some of the most popular games around today.
I would think the popularity of a game would warrant more attention to it than the fact its older.
If ATI/NV don’t want to lose major face they shouldn’t be caught not even adequately performing in a 5yr old game, which happens to be one of the most popular of all time.

One of the major draws to PC gaming over consoles is backwards compatibility.
Let alone play the phenomenon that is CS.

Quote:
I want my $300+ card to work wih HALO, UT2K3, Morrowind, ETC. not some second hand mod too old to be worth caring about.


Well, some of those games probably not exist, or not be the same without CS's existence.
Quote:
CS players should buy a $100 rig with a GFMX card and then they'd be happy.

If your only worried about new games, save yourself $1500 and buy a Xbox or PS2.

PS- I play CS still and the gameplay in it and DOD are yet to be matched IMO. Why do you think HL2 is so eagerly awaited?
People can play de_dust for the millionth time as the rest of the glitzy trendy games come and go.
For instance, games like Call of Duty look fun (I enjoyed the demo), but with no decent multi its a far stretch from ever matching the classics such as BF1942 or CS.

-----
1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 11:13:27 AM

i started to nice the problem is it's bad when down 3.7
i don't notice any bad with 3.8 but i change back to 3.7
however i can't install 3.2 drive that comes with the Box....
i can't install 3.2 in two of my pertion, one with winxp home one with xp pro.....

i think mine might be or should be defective
i have the same problem in HL2 demos and aquamark3
but no problem with 3dmark2003, but problem in 3dmark 2001
graphical problem with dx mode in CS, serious sam, and some other Korean, japanese online games, maxppayn won't run....

work fine with Hitman2, homeworld1/2, ORB, startwar-battle for naboo, starlance, empire earth.

using Open GL with aa/af on , no visul improvement.
DX mode look better
but the problem is when the camera moves horizonally... theres lagging problem. (closer moving objects moves slower than far moving objects, and the top and down are moving at various speed)

i will be testing return casle walfenstin soon.

i was suspecting that the problem will only happen when running DX8
but i'm worng

i have xbox,ps2,dreamcast,n64,GBAsp..... soon a gamecube..

http://mp3.com/dxl
October 19, 2003 11:24:51 AM

I have to admit, cs is the only game I have played almost non stop for 2 years lol. Its still addictive and ever since I got my isdn conn, I even get accused of cheating on the n00b13 servers.

I only wish they left it as it was and didn't include the shield... I'm already bored with halo, even the multiplayer has gotten a bit repetitive and I got to the end of halo single player and the stupid game saved over my last save so now I have to do half the bloody game again!!!

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1284380" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
<font color=red> 120% overclocker </font color=red> (cheapskate)
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2003 12:14:21 PM

Counter Strike plays well on $hit systems, people aren't/shouldn't be upgrading just to play CS. And no ATI shouldn't focus on the CS players. As for EQ players, they're in the same category for me, along with Sim players.

What DX games am I asking him to produce? Whichever the 'other ones' are. Could be CAT issues, could be game issues, could be hardware issues, or could be users issues. However it's easy to blame the drivers when you don't even know about the CS 'issues'. Hope that clarifies THAT for you.

I've been gaming on PCs since the PET and Vic 20, so what. My point is specific to this same debate every time.

'My Radeon R9800XT won't play CS as well as my GF2', and the correct answer is, return the Radeon and keep playing CS on the GF2!

<font color=blue>"..ignoring games in the league of CounterStrike and Everquest is very stupid for a GPU maker."</font color=blue>

And even more stoopid would be to focus on those games at the detriment of the NEWER games that people actually upgrade and buy new gear for. I don't want ATI spending one more minute for CS, it's done, the makers don't support it. They DID patch their craptacular mod the first time around because it didn't run well on the R8500, it was THEIR issue, not ATI's.

<font color=blue>Many people buy a 9800Pro/5900Ultra in hopes of speeding up these old games (even though the idea is absurd), they are still some of the most popular games around today.</font color=blue>

These are muatually exclusive points. The first statement is right on. As to the second, CS is popular mainly because it's old, runs on crummy equally old systems, and is regularly availible for free to even the least .net/file sharing savvy/savory.

<font color=blue>Well, some of those games probably not exist, or not be the same without CS's existence.</font color=blue>

First Morrowind owes nothing to CS, Ut2K3 likewise (more debt to doom/quake), and Halo maybe only a slight debt. Mainly if anything HL would be the thing that it AND CS would have debts too.
Which brings me back to my original post, and Combat was the Begining of it all! MAke Combat run on my R9600P, then worry about all these newer titles, cause it started the majority of fighting games, right?

<font color=blue>If your only worried about new games, save yourself $1500 and buy a Xbox or PS2.</font color=blue>

No, no, you've got it backwards there chum. The ignorant CSers out there are the ones who should save their coin and by a CS dedicated rig, especially an Xbox (really the perfect match for them). People like speeduk seem to be able to make it work. It's the whiny CS knobs who glog the CAT discussions that are the worst. Seriously, they are the ones who need the single box, a $100 PC at the Used Comp Depot will play CS just fine.

<font color=blue>One of the major draws to PC gaming over consoles is backwards compatibility.</font color=blue>

Yeah, sure, sure that's the reason. The fact that the PS1 games play on the PS2 eluded you? The main reason is flexibility, not backwards compatibility. PC gaming is popular for many reasons, but it's definitely NOT backwards compatibility (there are far more compatibility issues with PCs than consoles).

<font color=blue>Let alone play the phenomenon that is CS.</font color=blue>

Oooh the phenomenon, now that's special. Perhaps you play it a little TOO much. It's kinda like the SIMS, those that play it think the world revolves around the SIMS and why the heck aren't YOU playing it and loving it just like me. Same with the EQ crowd. Sure I like Morrowind, but guess what if there were drivers that made it pay like $hit, guess what, I'd deal with it, and if it weren't for the fact that they keep releasing CURRENT titles and CURRENT patches then I'd accept that it's getting long in the tooth too. Seriously CSers are like cultists.

<font color=blue>I play CS still and the gameplay in it and DOD are yet to be matched IMO</font color=blue>

And I'm not arguing that, this isn't about the game itself, so much as people whining about it's support. I played it, I liked it, I moved on to other games (cheaters and dumbasses killed CS for me, not the game itself [the main problem with online gaming]). Got problems with CS go complain to the moders, oh yeah that's right they don't support the game anymore. So because these people have no one else to complain to they bitch to ATI because they are still there. Seriously CS is done, it's fixed. Anything more, have someone else fix it for the CSers. Don't like how it plays on the Radeons, then go buy an FX and complain to them about their play in HL2 and whatever else.
Ati shouldn't waste anymore resources on it, the major issue should be fixing current problems (the potential ones in 3.8/3.8.5) and adding new features (like the shader effects and fullstream [an old 'new' feature]), it's stuff like that that gets FUTURE buyers, no to worrying about old games with poor code. And people aren't waiting for HL2 just because of CS (I'd be surprised if the majority of those CS players could afford a good rig to play HL2 [they'll also whine about that too I'm sure]), HL2 will be a 'take it to the next level' game , like D]|[, that will be very ground-breaking (the physics alone should allow for nice uses of it's engine) and will be the basis for many future games to come. If HL2 sucked it would still be eagerly awaited by the CSers because it might spawn CS], etc. However it wouldn't get all the extra coverage if it weren't for the actually nice looking aspect we've had previewed so far. And the origianl was nice too.

Whatever, it should be added to the FAQ of every forum everywhere, 'Wanna play CS, buy a GF MX and a second hand rig and be happy'.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 19, 2003 1:33:51 PM

now is not just the cs problem anymore...
problem with new stuff like, halflife 2 demo

http://mp3.com/dxl
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2003 1:39:39 PM

You mean the illegal copy of HL2? That too is not an ATI problem, and you'll get no sympathy from me, nor many others here about that.

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">Check THIS thread for the answer to THAT question.</A>

Seriously you get what you pay for!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 19, 2003 6:27:20 PM

You have some good points.
I guess if I had to sum up what I'm trying to say is that they should make sure their card works on most everything out there.. only supporting new games, or only supporting old games is still killing yourself either way.
If ATI only supported new games and NV supported old and new... I would only buy NV, shader issues, IQ problems/cheats and all... and wouldnt think twice about it.
But we each have a different outlook.
I partially agree with you, I could care less if they supported Daikatana.. but CS? Come on.

Quote:
I played it, I liked it, I moved on to other games (cheaters and dumbasses killed CS for me, not the game itself [the main problem with online gaming]).


YES, I couldnt agree more. I think its worse in 1.6 also.
I just wish they had punkbuster or something similar for CS servers.

BTW, I got slowdowns in smoke with my GF3 in CS until I got my 9800 :smile: .
Hehe. But in all truthfulness that is probably due to the old Q2 engine.

-----
1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 6:35:34 PM

Yeah I just hope it doesnt go to pay to play but I'm afraid it might.
Oh well, that means fulltime BF1942 for me then.

I'm going to PM you my email and name to search for me and add to your friends list if your using 1.6 yet.

I never get accused of cheating as I suck and never did get good.. but I've always enjoyed CS and play it daily. I have an uncle and 2 cousins that I play with or against almost daily... now thats really fun blowing their heads off with the AWP. :smile:

But my cousin is in CAL-I right now and hes really CAL-Main quality at least, so I kind of follow his clan and CS culture in general.
I'm probably fit for CAL open, LOL.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 6:40:19 PM

At least you got rid of the 3.8s.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 7:46:17 PM

Quote:
Many people buy a 9800Pro/5900Ultra in hopes of speeding up these old games (even though the idea is absurd), they are still some of the most popular games around today.




now why the hell is that absurd? i was tickled pink when i found out that not only could my 8500le play CS 5 times faster than my Radeon 7200, but with 16xAF ANNNDDDD TRUFORM! TRUFORM FFS! that was worth the upgrade all by itself.


if you think its absurd, then you think the sole reason people upgrade is to simply be able to play new games. well sorry, thats not true i like to be able to play new games and play them really really fast.. plus if my old fav's can get a nice 300% framerate increase with eyecandy that i couldnt use before, thats just as good!

-------


................
October 19, 2003 7:50:38 PM

Quote:
I have an uncle and 2 cousins that I play with or against almost daily... now thats really fun blowing their heads off with the AWP



ahh.. now it makes sense. your one of those game-ruining AWP bastards. i hope you die a painful slow death...


I personally have only used an AWP about three times.. but never again because everything in CS is awesome, except getting your toe blown off by some aimbotting n00b 700 feet away .. and dieing of coz because for those who dont know AWP's are one shot kill no matter where your hit.. even if he just merely shoots your toe, or grazes your hand, your dead. its stupid

-------


................
October 19, 2003 9:30:00 PM

Quote:
now it makes sense. your one of those game-ruining AWP bastards.

LOL I didnt ruin your game.. if you dont like 1.6 dont play 1.6 but its part of the game.
I agree its a bad addition but I'm not one of those who complains about the game they way it was intended to be played.
Bots and wallhacks are a major problem and that is what plagues CS more.. they need punkbuster or something.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 19, 2003 9:31:43 PM

I meant that I wouldnt buy a 9800Pro or 5900 just to speed up that old game. But its turned out thats all I still play consistently for the most part.
But thats not really a crime if I'm having fun.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
October 20, 2003 2:03:52 AM

ops. double
(it wouldnt display my initial post unless i post again, weird)<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Ion on 10/20/03 09:26 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 20, 2003 1:24:42 PM

Just ignore phial on his experience with CS. He is a noob. :tongue:

Quote:
and dieing of coz because for those who dont know AWP's are one shot kill no matter where your hit..

October 20, 2003 3:59:49 PM

Which server? I live in Australia so anything located oversea give me 200+ping which is unplayable for me.

PS. you afraid to face the awp, typical noob act(and no knowledge of awp dmg makes me laugh)
October 20, 2003 4:12:43 PM

Now speeduk act like the typical fool who always accuse me of cheating whenever i pull off a hs. :lol: 
October 20, 2003 4:41:38 PM

Watch Poor speeduk spend his hard earned cash in net cafe to get "cheating-free" environment. :evil: 
!