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New 5950 (NV38) and 9800XT (R380) on Toms

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October 23, 2003 3:59:10 PM

All I got to say is one thing: Oh, looks like ati is cheating too...

I continue to standby what I originally said, they're all a bunch of cheating halfwits trying to rape you outta as much money as possible.

ATi, nVidia, Matrox, Intel, Dogsheit, it don't matter. They're all cheating bastages when given the opportunity and a way they don't believe they will be caught doing it.

Now mind, I'm sure ATi will claim it is a bug... *grin* Just like nVidia no? No?

To be completely fair though, in this generation of cards ATi really is a much better product due to the superior speed it antialiases-- at cheating or no cheating (not to mention a significantly better fsaa method). Although with the new nvidia drivers and some better designed hardware in the next generation, I have hopes that nvidia might pull a nice card outta their asses yet. Hopefully ati pulls a good one too, be nice to have real competition between them again :) 

Just wanted to gloat a minute because ati got caught redhanded like nvidia :)  They're all snakes people, can't trust any of em!

Shadus<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by shadus on 10/23/03 12:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 23, 2003 4:07:35 PM

Link? I haven't seen anything like this yet? Is it on toms mainpage?


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<b>Got any of that beer that has candy floating in it? You know, Skittlebrau? </b> <i>Homer Simpson</i>

TKS
October 23, 2003 4:24:12 PM

Nod, up on mainsite. He talks about it through the review in one of the areas about aquamark.

Shadus
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October 23, 2003 4:25:04 PM

I don't understand why they are cheating when they already have such a big lead over NVidia. SOmebody at ATI coughed up the ball. YOu know what I think....I don't think it was a top-down conspiracy at ATI to cheat, but probably a driver programmer who needed some extra performance to pad his yearly review. Just speculation, but seems more likely than a whole department in on cheating.

It's all Bush's fault
October 23, 2003 5:30:29 PM

TGGA posted a review on these two cards...I can't remember where...he said he liked the review cuz the peeps that did it were very professional and in-the-know. Anyways, to make a long story short...if he could post the link again (I can't find it) then I would show you all a bit of interesting things (it was the site with all the IQ's screenies he was talking about...with the new Det 52.xx's)...the interesting thing is that the IQ for the 5950 was lacking bigtime. Everything they are saying about the ATI was reversed in this review with screenshot proof...and If I can find the link I'll show you what I saw/found. Help TGGA?

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<b>Got any of that beer that has candy floating in it? You know, Skittlebrau? </b> <i>Homer Simpson</i>

TKS
October 23, 2003 6:31:05 PM

Nod, I think alot of the nvidia crap was the same though also, but both companies need to implement stronger qc on the drivers if that is the case :) . Programmers just want a secure job like anyone else, and eeking more performance out of an already optimized driver is as good a way as any.

Shadus
October 23, 2003 6:32:38 PM

Mind, the stuff on toms here wasn't using det drivers at all. It was using the new drivers from nvidia... so that wouldn't shock me, there were known problems with det's iq (and realistically there are problems with the new drivers iq to when it's fsaa-- they need to find a better alg to get rid of the jaggies on verts.)

Shadus
October 23, 2003 9:01:54 PM

Seriously, Tom mentioned 2 counts of cheating on Ati cards, one of which has no reference rasterizer image to see who is right, and the 2nd one is just out of pure ignorance, the one I am talking about the unreal tournament cheat. Yes, Ati does default the texture bias to 0.0 and -0.0, BUT the .ini file for the ut2k3 benchmarking file over-rides this setting and sets BOTH cards to the same setting, and the "cheat" isn't evident in the benchmark so who really gives a rats ass? Atleast the cheat can be turned off by changing 2 values in the startup file for UT

It's really funny seeing all of the people who were waiting for somebody to blame ATI for "cheats" just so they can rant their heads off on forums
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 23, 2003 10:38:03 PM

The interesting thing will simply be to see what ATI's response is. Will they do what they did last time and remove any anomalies or will they act like nV and deny everything and say they are 'optimizations'?

That will be what determines things for me, since what may make one game work GREAT with no loss of IQ, may have caused the up 'til now unreported anomalies., which doesn't make them cheats unless ATI expressly knew their effect and intended them to do so. nV's total diabling of AF in UT2K3 and their other application detection floptimizations were obvious purposeful attempts to simply gains benchmark score points.

I do like the fact that these new drivers give equal image quality, but I would've liked to see the ShaderMark scores too. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for that.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 24, 2003 1:55:28 AM

I should say my own take on this:

First of all, I do agree with you. What ATi has done may be a side-effect after all. No one knows and accusations this early, compared to the clear conclusion we have on nVidia's past, is ridiculous. If they are cheats and it took this long, probably no one noticed, but nonetheless, it's their answer to this which will be interesting.

Onto the review:

I believe nVidia truly has done something with the Forceware. I just can't find flaws. Honestly. Image quality seems to be right up there, and aside from minor Aniso quality drops, the package is somehow honest. :eek: 
A new one since a while by nVidia!

But I think what is most surprising in my eyes, and correct me if I am wrong or am forgetting something: The new drivers really DO lower the FX performance. In FSAA they almost have no chance. Didn't they previously do?
Even normal performance is lacking sometimes.

Winter-wise I don't necessarily agree with the optimism Lars displays. I am sorry but I've grown cynical of those predictions, whether in the CPU or GPU world. Each time it's a dissapointment or even a delayed product. Can we even pretend this will be a "wild Xmas"? We said that about the "upcoming cards from ATi and nVidia", and there they are. (So where's the brawl they're supposed to go at it?) Cheap no-good cards performance-wise relatively. I'm even cynical of the price drop claims. I'll believe it when I see it, period.

But the verdict on the drivers, in my eyes, is truly different now. Maybe I am rushing, but Lars has done 3 consecutive excellent reviews with trustworthy content. He went far testing the image quality and it looks intact so far. The nVidia cards are more trusting now.
It doesn't mean I like their architecture any more though. Their performance looks worse now to me. But they are honest, or so it seems.

Until I see an Ultra 256MB at 270$ US, I can't recommend it though. It just HAS to be at 9800PRO levels. And the same applies for the latter, it should drop to such levels to be recommended as "borderline mainstream".

Excellent review nonetheless. Lars shows he has the author ability and knows how to analyze and listen to us. Seems to really have improved over competing websites.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol:  <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 10/23/03 11:38 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 24, 2003 2:05:28 AM

If you read HardOCP's review they found that the new drivers force weak Trilinear filtering ON for everything, overriding user setting and game settings.

Despite Nvidia saying to them it wasn't going to be that way.

On most things you dont notice thankfully, but with some you do.

And with the price of R9800pro 128mb cards going down, there's really no choice as to what to get.

<b>I am not a AMD fanboy.
I am not a Via fanboy.
I am not a ATI fanboy.
I AM a performance fanboy.
And a low price fanboy. :smile:
Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.</b>
October 24, 2003 2:47:46 AM

Woops...

Us skip them graphs when we know too much about the new crap!

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
October 24, 2003 2:49:00 AM

I experimented with the drivers' new settings. Excellent nView stuff. The Gridlines mode can be helpful for big monitors. But for me I've went back to nView and its invisible window dragging, plus the new title bar buttons which work really well.

I haven't gamed much to comment on performance for a Ti200 though.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
October 24, 2003 3:31:56 AM

BTW, considering the performance of the FX5700 Ultra, I'd have to say if ATi comes with an updated core for the 9600XT (which really isn't needed anymore), then I'd say GW was very foolish when he said "No it won't", to the 9600 beating it. (or did he say the 5700 Ultra will win for sure)

I dunno if he was being sarcastic, what with the loads of serious looking posts by him with such comments, that make it seem like he's having mood swings. :eek: 

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 24, 2003 3:46:35 AM

Yeah I have to agree with pretty much all your points.

Like you/I said, the performance seems to come at near/equal/above quality, so for now (unless someone rips them apart at B3D or something) I think this is exactly what nV owners were looking for.

Yes the FX5600U does seem to have lost it's competitive equality/edge with the R9600P with time.

Also, I agree that Lars last 3 reviews have been great (not that they were sorely lacking (except maybe the VGA buyer's guide IMO as an R9600P owner :evil:  ). The Aquamark3 review was the first that made me say [keanu on], Whoa, something's different![keanu off]

As for the Wild Xmas etc. My motivations are different, so just the release of a PCI-EX card will make my X-mas, even if they perform pretty much on par with the R9600X, it's the potential I like even if I don't exploit it for 6-12 months.

But here's to hoping you're wrong in that respect and that were ARE pleasently surprised the way many of us were with the R300.

EDIT: BTW it was ME who said "No it Won't" (quoting the BEER Baron - Homer), in response to GW sayng the FX5700 would prevail. I was hoping he would respond so I could finish the Rex Banner Banter with [in a small distant voice] 'no..' :lol: 

Yeah I don't think a respin is Neccesary but it would be nice, and it would also be nice that if they don't re-spin, that they just clock and make the memory the same as the AIW. :cool:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil:  <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 10/23/03 09:53 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 24, 2003 12:16:00 PM

I'm just easily amused, I got so sick of hearing about nvidia is the bad guy and ati is squeaky. Both companies have a nice long history of cheating, so both are dirty. I just find it to be a riot in general since so many were going on about ati being a standup company and nvidia being satan incarnate. Even with the cheating ignored entirely for both, the ati card is better, no one in their right mind can dispute that presently... however, neither company is clean and after all the [-peep-] the ati fanboys were going on about, its worth a good laugh. I'm neither an ati fanboy or nvidia fanboy, I just like good quality hardware with good drivers. I buy whoever is at the top at the time... its the easiest and most sensible way.

Shadus
October 24, 2003 12:22:14 PM

Whats got me thinking is that even if the 5700U is $200.00 dollars U.S., you can still buy a 5900 non U for $229.00 at Best Buy after rebate. And of course with the 5900 you get a 256bit memory bus, etc.

<b>I help because you suck</b>
October 24, 2003 1:25:57 PM

plz plz ATI and NVIDIA sales/fans
enough ads and fighting/defending for now
just wait for the deeper image quality "investagation" from Tom's hardware.
sould be soon!
just be patient!
just make it more peaceful!

http://www.mp3.com/dxl ASUS A7N8X, xp3200+ (218x10.5), 2xKINGSTON HYPERX PC3500 512MB(218mhz, at 2 3 3 7) segate 120g 8mb ATA100 segate 80g 2mb ATA100, Creamware pulsar2, ATI9800pro 128mb<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dxl on 10/24/03 11:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 24, 2003 1:42:14 PM

Quote:
just wait for the deeper image quality <b>investation</b> from Tom's hardware.

Is that like an <b>infestation</b>? :lol: 

<b>I help because you suck</b>
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 24, 2003 4:12:49 PM

Yeah, for the foreseeable future that will be a better route, kinda like the R9600XT vs. the R9700non-pro (but the R9700 is a little rarer I would think).

For me it was never about the power, so the R9600XT would still be my choice, except I'd wait for the good memory.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 24, 2003 4:40:33 PM

Can one imagine if the memory bandwidth was upped to 400MHZ, the performance expectations?
Or how about Catalyst 3.9's supposed performance emphacis, being on the 9600 potential?

Hmm hmm, let's stir the stew.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 24, 2003 4:42:26 PM

I hope that's not directed at me (despite your re: line)!

I'm impressed and being lenient, but rightly sceptical. Like I said I'm waiting for the big boys to do an investigation, and Digit-Life's review so far is the best out there (not surprising, they are usually among the top).

I won't forget nV's recent past, but I'm willing to forgive (after a short punishment) them if they have TRUELY changed their ways. And personally I think that's very fair.

I give laurels and darts when they are due.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 24, 2003 4:45:50 PM

Well I can imagine it's performance with 365Mhz memory! :wink:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 24, 2003 4:54:26 PM

Quote:
EDIT: BTW it was ME who said "No it Won't" (quoting the BEER Baron - Homer), in response to GW sayng the FX5700 would prevail. I was hoping he would respond so I could finish the Rex Banner Banter with [in a small distant voice] 'no..'

LOL!
Oh yeah you said it, but since I forgot the exact conversation, I knew that GW had some implication about stating something pro-5700 Ultra. But there we go.

Yo man, you should really get Simpsons Hit n Run for a console if you got one. Seriously fun game, audio is superb, featuring hundreds of sounds from almost every known Springfield character. Damn funny and great for making you remember the people you like.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 24, 2003 7:43:07 PM

Yeah I saw the Tech TV / X-Play review. That plus Futurama.

I don't have a console, but I may get the GameCube as it is still $99 at theComputerCenter (was $99 at FS).

The thing is I just don't like the lack of customizability in most consoles. Even Morrowind for the X-box (first place I played it) I don't like anywhere near as much as the Computer. MMMmmm Area-Effect Arrows! :evil: 

I'm gonna wait and see. We do now have an X-box in the lounge at work so maybe I'll get a copy to play here.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
October 25, 2003 12:46:10 AM

Damn man, if FS has a 99$ CDN GC, that is a deal far better than any out there.

I'd say that the console version for Hit n Run is definitely working well.

Hopefully the game isn't 10$ more expensive on Xbox. It's 59$ for GC.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
October 25, 2003 2:08:08 AM

Actually FS HAD them, now they are back to $139. It was on sale the week after soul caliber came out.

It's still very tempting, but I just don't think of many title that are ust have (except the new Gauntlet, that's alot of Fun on the GC [when I rent one]).


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
!