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Need New PC recommendations/info

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  • Computers
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January 17, 2005 8:40:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I'm looking for a PC w/at least a 3.4Mhz processor, 1
Gig RAM, 128 Meg Vid. RAM and 80 gig hard drive. A 2nd 10k RPM 80 gig
HD would be nice but I think it'd be cheaper to by that on aftermarket
& install it. I'd also want a 17 or 18" LCD. I'm looking to spend
$1400ish.

The machine will be used for surfing, VHS video capture to transfer to
DVDR w/some light video editing and maybe some gaming. My main concern
is that I'm disabled and want to use Dragon Dictate to
navigate/control windows as well as dictate. On my current 1Mhz Dell
w/360k RAM Dragon isn't very fast when using it to navigate Win 2k.
Its pretty good but I'd want something faster if I were to use DD all
the time. Based on my usage, do the specs I'm looking for sound
appropriate? Any idea if Dragon would work better w/less RAM but a
faster processor or vise-versa? I ask because of tradeoffs I may have
to make due to lo budget.

Also, what's the best chipset to look for or is it very important? And
is XP Home
or XP Pro the better OS?
At Dell.com I can get a system w/
3.40GHz, 800FSB,
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
17 in 1704FPT Ultrasharp™ Digital Flat Panel Display
128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon™ X300 SE
for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
like
a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
sysbuilder.com
or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.

Sorry for rambling. Thanks for your help!


Dan
Quadzila@NOSPAMoptonline.net
Remove NOSPAM from address when replying

More about : recommendations info

Anonymous
January 18, 2005 4:50:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Dan:
> is XP Home or XP Pro the better OS?

Home is a lite version of Pro. The MS website is the best resource for
deciding which version you want.

> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display
> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE
> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
> like a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
> sysbuilder.com or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.

It's unlikely you will find a cheaper price than Dell.
--
Mac Cool
January 18, 2005 1:40:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

<<Loads of ppl now know how to build computers. People in the street!

<<Dell computers are reliable and cheap, a winning combination. I bought
one
<<from them, and their support was excellent.

Somewhere a solution that falls between these extreme posts exists.

I too am disabled and although at this time I am able to use a keyboard, the
future may be different. I also have built many custom systems for the
disabled. The most important thing here is your control, then everything
else. For voice recognition its your MIC and soundcard. Not that your have
to invest tons of money in them, but a little concern with clock stability
is in order. Some mainboards with integrated sound don't measure up. Mic and
headsets are rated for dictation and voice recognition. The dragon site has
some requirement pages and product recommendations.

HTH



"Dan" <QuadzilaNOSPAM@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:29fou0ps3mkck07rc49iid1kd1oqk6akt5@4ax.com...
> I'm looking for a PC w/at least a 3.4Mhz processor, 1
> Gig RAM, 128 Meg Vid. RAM and 80 gig hard drive. A 2nd 10k RPM 80 gig
> HD would be nice but I think it'd be cheaper to by that on aftermarket
> & install it. I'd also want a 17 or 18" LCD. I'm looking to spend
> $1400ish.
>
> The machine will be used for surfing, VHS video capture to transfer to
> DVDR w/some light video editing and maybe some gaming. My main concern
> is that I'm disabled and want to use Dragon Dictate to
> navigate/control windows as well as dictate. On my current 1Mhz Dell
> w/360k RAM Dragon isn't very fast when using it to navigate Win 2k.
> Its pretty good but I'd want something faster if I were to use DD all
> the time. Based on my usage, do the specs I'm looking for sound
> appropriate? Any idea if Dragon would work better w/less RAM but a
> faster processor or vise-versa? I ask because of tradeoffs I may have
> to make due to lo budget.
>
> Also, what's the best chipset to look for or is it very important? And
> is XP Home
> or XP Pro the better OS?
> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display
> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE
> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
> like
> a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
> sysbuilder.com
> or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.
>
> Sorry for rambling. Thanks for your help!
>
>
> Dan
> Quadzila@NOSPAMoptonline.net
> Remove NOSPAM from address when replying
Related resources
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:59:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I'm no expert but I don't think it makes any difference which you use for a
home system. I've been using xp home on this laptop for 3 years and haven't
run into anything i wanted to do that it couldn't do, so I'd say go with
home just to save money.

Dell computers are reliable and cheap, a winning combination. I bought one
from them, and their support was excellent. I doubt the few bucks you may
save elsewhere dealing with lessor outfits would off set the secuity you get
from Dell. Also, if you do go with Dell, I'd get the longest warranty they
sell. When the hard drive failed they sent a replacement that was larger
than the one that broke. I called about it and they told me to just install
it because they no longer stocked the smaller ones.

Avery
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 10:46:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

-Avery Anderson:

> I'm no expert but I don't think it makes any difference which you use
> for a home system. I've been using xp home on this laptop for 3
> years and haven't run into anything i wanted to do that it couldn't
> do, so I'd say go with home just to save money.

It really depends. I went from XP Pro to Home when I changed systems. Pro
was just better for multiple users. Home is OK, but I have to give
everyone administrator access or else some programs will not run. My
daughter cannot even play her Dr. Suess games or use her drawing tablet
without administrator access.
--
Mac Cool
January 19, 2005 2:13:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote in message ...
>Dan:
>> is XP Home or XP Pro the better OS?
>
>Home is a lite version of Pro. The MS website is the best resource for
>deciding which version you want.

Linux is $0.00!!!
[ the CDs will cost you $15.us ]


>
>> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
>> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,

Pentium 4 with motherboard - $200.us

>> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)

$150.us approx. (2x512M. (depends on stinkin' rebates))

>> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)

$50.us (Seagate or WD (rebates again))

>> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write

$50.us

>> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display

$40.us (CRT) ($130.us - 19")

>> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE

Non-Leading edge cards, approx $75.us

>> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
>> like a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
>> sysbuilder.com or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.
>
>It's unlikely you will find a cheaper price than Dell.
>--
>Mac Cool

Tower case with 350watt power(atx) $40.us

total - $605.us
+ $100.us ($50.us per hour x 2 hours to put it all together.)(pay yourself!)
+ $15.us for Debian GNU/Linux OS (comes with 8000+ free software packages)

== $720.us
[ prices from Fry's, CyberGuys, CyberGeeks, etc.]

That's cheaper than Dell! <G>
If the OP can't use a screwdriver, the Dell is a good deal!

Fry's has/had some 'weaker' machines for $200.us! (Lindows OS)

[ sorry, I couldn't resist! "the devil made me do it". ]
Bob R
POVrookie
--
MinGW (GNU compiler): http://www.mingw.org/
Dev-C++ IDE: http://www.bloodshed.net/
POVray: http://www.povray.org/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++: ftp://snurse-l.org/pub/acllc-c++/faq
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:13:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"BobR" <RemoveBadBobR@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:hKgHd.44260$w62.29636@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Mac Cool wrote in message ...
>>Dan:
>>> is XP Home or XP Pro the better OS?
>>
>>Home is a lite version of Pro. The MS website is the best resource for
>>deciding which version you want.
>
> Linux is $0.00!!!
> [ the CDs will cost you $15.us ]
>
>
>>
>>> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
>>> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
>
> Pentium 4 with motherboard - $200.us
>
>>> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
>
> $150.us approx. (2x512M. (depends on stinkin' rebates))
>
>>> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
>
> $50.us (Seagate or WD (rebates again))
>
>>> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
>
> $50.us
>
>>> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display
>
> $40.us (CRT) ($130.us - 19")
>
>>> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE
>
> Non-Leading edge cards, approx $75.us
>
>>> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
>>> like a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
>>> sysbuilder.com or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.
>>
>>It's unlikely you will find a cheaper price than Dell.
>>--
>>Mac Cool
>
> Tower case with 350watt power(atx) $40.us
>
> total - $605.us
> + $100.us ($50.us per hour x 2 hours to put it all together.)(pay
> yourself!)
> + $15.us for Debian GNU/Linux OS (comes with 8000+ free software packages)
>
> == $720.us
> [ prices from Fry's, CyberGuys, CyberGeeks, etc.]
>
> That's cheaper than Dell! <G>
> If the OP can't use a screwdriver, the Dell is a good deal!
>
> Fry's has/had some 'weaker' machines for $200.us! (Lindows OS)
>
> [ sorry, I couldn't resist! "the devil made me do it". ]
> Bob R
> POVrookie
> --
> MinGW (GNU compiler): http://www.mingw.org/
> Dev-C++ IDE: http://www.bloodshed.net/
> POVray: http://www.povray.org/
> alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++: ftp://snurse-l.org/pub/acllc-c++/faq
>
>

Cheaper than Dell when you replace the LCD with a CRT, replace the PCI-e
video card with a $75 generic, etc. etc.

A Toyota Echo is cheaper than a Mercedes S500, but so ?

Tom
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 4:47:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Dan wrote:
> I'm looking for a PC w/at least a 3.4Mhz processor, 1
> Gig RAM, 128 Meg Vid. RAM and 80 gig hard drive. A 2nd 10k RPM 80 gig
> HD would be nice but I think it'd be cheaper to by that on aftermarket
> & install it. I'd also want a 17 or 18" LCD. I'm looking to spend
> $1400ish.
>
> The machine will be used for surfing, VHS video capture to transfer to
> DVDR w/some light video editing and maybe some gaming. My main concern
> is that I'm disabled and want to use Dragon Dictate to
> navigate/control windows as well as dictate. On my current 1Mhz Dell
> w/360k RAM Dragon isn't very fast when using it to navigate Win 2k.
> Its pretty good but I'd want something faster if I were to use DD all
> the time. Based on my usage, do the specs I'm looking for sound
> appropriate? Any idea if Dragon would work better w/less RAM but a
> faster processor or vise-versa? I ask because of tradeoffs I may have
> to make due to lo budget.
>
> Also, what's the best chipset to look for or is it very important? And
> is XP Home
> or XP Pro the better OS?
> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
> 17 in 1704FPT Ultrasharp™ Digital Flat Panel Display
> 128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon™ X300 SE
> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
> like
> a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
> sysbuilder.com
> or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.
>
> Sorry for rambling. Thanks for your help!
>
>
> Dan
> Quadzila@NOSPAMoptonline.net
> Remove NOSPAM from address when replying

If you try to build your own system, Intel is going to be more
expensive. Pretty much every home-builder I know uses AMD for the simple
reason that their CPU's are cheaper at retail prices. AMD seems to be
more standards friendly as well, which tends to make their motherboards
cheaper. That Dell system you have listed would be perfectly fine for
Dragon Dictate. As far as the XP Home vs. XP Pro debate, it's about
networking. If you don't have a network, or just have one PC, XP Home is
all you need. If you needed to save money, you could probably scale back
the CPU a bit.
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 7:23:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Al Smith:

> One of the big advantages of building your own computer is that
> you don't need to pay the Microsoft tax. That was a main reason I
> built my own last time. I'm tired of sending my money to
> Microsoft, so I decided not to do it anymore.

One has nothing to do with the other and buying MS products is a choice
not tied to prebuilt systems. I used to have the direct link to buy Dells
without an operating system, but a quick look in my bookmarks didn't find
it.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 7:52:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

BobR:

> Linux is $0.00!!!
> [ the CDs will cost you $15.us ]

True, assuming it works with the hardware you choose, assuming you have
the time and aptitude to learn how to use it.

>>> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
>>> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
>
> Pentium 4 with motherboard - $200.us

279+125=$404

>>> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
>
> $150.us approx. (2x512M. (depends on stinkin' rebates))

$142

>>> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
>
> $50.us (Seagate or WD (rebates again))

I don't know what the OP spec'd out but the default hard drive on Dell's ~
$1400 machine is 250GB, not 80GB.

$168

>>> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
>
> $50.us

I think you're on the cheap side but I'll give you this one.

>>> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display
>
> $40.us (CRT) ($130.us - 19")

Comes with 19" LCD
$399

>>> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE
>
> Non-Leading edge cards, approx $75.us

I can live with $75

> Tower case with 350watt power(atx) $40.us

$91

> total - $605.us

$1329 shipped, sans software
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 5:53:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> If you try to build your own system, Intel is going to be more expensive.
> Pretty much every home-builder I know uses AMD for the simple reason that
> their CPU's are cheaper at retail prices.

That is misleading. It depends on what level of performance you are aiming
for. For the typical mid-range system, an Intel solution CAN be cheaper to
build, when total cost is considered. You can spend many hundreds of
dollars on a CPU, regardless of who makes it. But if you want to spend
about ~$200 on a CPU (or a mid-range system), you are going to get the same
relative performance level, as far as AMD vs. Intel goes. THEN you will
discover that there is a wider selection of mainboards/chipsets/etc. for the
Intel chip, so your mainboard is likely to be cheaper for the Intel chip, if
you shop carefully.

It's pretty much a wash either way, but it's POSSIBLE to build an Intel
system for less money . . . especially if you are aiming for the average
mid-range system. -Dave
January 19, 2005 6:30:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in message
news:357s4vF4jqkmbU1@individual.net...
>> If you try to build your own system, Intel is going to be more expensive.
>> Pretty much every home-builder I know uses AMD for the simple reason that
>> their CPU's are cheaper at retail prices.
>
> That is misleading. It depends on what level of performance you are
> aiming for. For the typical mid-range system, an Intel solution CAN be
> cheaper to build, when total cost is considered. You can spend many
> hundreds of dollars on a CPU, regardless of who makes it. But if you want
> to spend about ~$200 on a CPU (or a mid-range system), you are going to
> get the same relative performance level, as far as AMD vs. Intel goes.
> THEN you will discover that there is a wider selection of
> mainboards/chipsets/etc. for the Intel chip, so your mainboard is likely
> to be cheaper for the Intel chip, if you shop carefully.
>
> It's pretty much a wash either way, but it's POSSIBLE to build an Intel
> system for less money . . . especially if you are aiming for the average
> mid-range system. -Dave
>

I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.

Compare prices at http://www.pricewatch.com in CPU section.

AMD based motherboards are as cheap or cheaper than Intel
motherboard.

Compare prices http://www.pricewatch.com in Motherboard section.


Steve
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 6:59:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

>>One of the big advantages of building your own computer is that you don't
>>> need to pay the Microsoft tax. That was a main reason I built my own last
>>> time. I'm tired of sending my money to Microsoft, so I decided not to do
>>> it anymore.
>
>
> Just because you build your own computer does not mean
> you still do not purchase a Microsoft operating system.
> I have built many computers and I purchased windows.
> Linux has it's uses..but I can't play they games that I play
> Doom 3, FarCry, Hal Life on Linux. So I have no choice
> to use windows.
>
> Steve

If you already own a full retail copy of Windows XP, you can
legally transfer it from one computer to another. Why buy a
computer with an OEM version of Windows if you've already got Windows?
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 6:59:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Al Smith <invalid@address.com> wrote:

>>>One of the big advantages of building your own computer is that you don't
>>>> need to pay the Microsoft tax. That was a main reason I built my own last
>>>> time. I'm tired of sending my money to Microsoft, so I decided not to do
>>>> it anymore.

>> Just because you build your own computer does not mean
>> you still do not purchase a Microsoft operating system.
>> I have built many computers and I purchased windows.
>> Linux has it's uses..but I can't play they games that I play
>> Doom 3, FarCry, Hal Life on Linux. So I have no choice
>> to use windows.

>If you already own a full retail copy of Windows XP, you can
>legally transfer it from one computer to another. Why buy a
>computer with an OEM version of Windows if you've already got Windows?

Depends on what is happening with the "old" computer.

If one is keeping it [for spouse, offspring, resident MIL, or as
one's own second, third, or whatever computer], one will still
need an OS for it.

If one is selling it, how easy is it to find buyers for an
OS-less computer that one cannot, legally, even demonstrate works
after one has put Windows into the new one? Strident as they
are, linux users are still a rather small minority of computer
users. And even those will want to see that the old box they're
buying still works.

Only if one is salvaging components from the old one, and
trashing the rest is a need for an OS eliminated.

Or, if the old computer came with OEM Win9x, WinME, whatever, one
can reinstall the old Windows version and hope someone buys into
getting WinME [spit!, even 3.1 would be preferable] or Win9x.

At least that's how it looks to me.

[Who had to include the retail copy of XPPro that I bought for it
with the old Dimension L733r I just sold, because the buyer was
too smart to let me stick him with the WinME that the L733r
originally came with.]
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]
January 19, 2005 6:59:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ogden Johnson III" <oj3usmc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sb5tu09t8kal5b319gl6d6ukcau0ej5l4k@4ax.com...
> Al Smith <invalid@address.com> wrote:
>
>>>>One of the big advantages of building your own computer is that you
>>>>don't
>>>>> need to pay the Microsoft tax. That was a main reason I built my own
>>>>> last
>>>>> time. I'm tired of sending my money to Microsoft, so I decided not to
>>>>> do
>>>>> it anymore.
>
>>> Just because you build your own computer does not mean
>>> you still do not purchase a Microsoft operating system.
>>> I have built many computers and I purchased windows.
>>> Linux has it's uses..but I can't play they games that I play
>>> Doom 3, FarCry, Hal Life on Linux. So I have no choice
>>> to use windows.
>
>>If you already own a full retail copy of Windows XP, you can
>>legally transfer it from one computer to another. Why buy a
>>computer with an OEM version of Windows if you've already got Windows?
>
> Depends on what is happening with the "old" computer.
>
> If one is keeping it [for spouse, offspring, resident MIL, or as
> one's own second, third, or whatever computer], one will still
> need an OS for it.
>
> If one is selling it, how easy is it to find buyers for an
> OS-less computer that one cannot, legally, even demonstrate works
> after one has put Windows into the new one? Strident as they
> are, linux users are still a rather small minority of computer
> users. And even those will want to see that the old box they're
> buying still works.
>
> Only if one is salvaging components from the old one, and
> trashing the rest is a need for an OS eliminated.
>
> Or, if the old computer came with OEM Win9x, WinME, whatever, one
> can reinstall the old Windows version and hope someone buys into
> getting WinME [spit!, even 3.1 would be preferable] or Win9x.
>
> At least that's how it looks to me.
>
> [Who had to include the retail copy of XPPro that I bought for it
> with the old Dimension L733r I just sold, because the buyer was
> too smart to let me stick him with the WinME that the L733r
> originally came with.]
> --
> OJ III
> [Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
> Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]


In response to your

> If one is selling it, how easy is it to find buyers for an
> OS-less computer that one cannot, legally, even demonstrate works
> after one has put Windows into the new one? Strident as they
> are, linux users are still a rather small minority of computer
> users. And even those will want to see that the old box they're
> buying still works.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...

Computers without operating systems sell by 1000's or more a year
on eBay.
Plus you don't even see it person before you buy it, only a picture
and description.

Steve
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 6:59:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Steve" <two_one@w7.org> wrote in message
news:lhxHd.54625$Wo.2741@lakeread08...
>
> "Ogden Johnson III" <oj3usmc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:sb5tu09t8kal5b319gl6d6ukcau0ej5l4k@4ax.com...
>> Al Smith <invalid@address.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>One of the big advantages of building your own computer is that you
>>>>>don't
>>>>>> need to pay the Microsoft tax. That was a main reason I built my own
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> time. I'm tired of sending my money to Microsoft, so I decided not to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> it anymore.
>>
>>>> Just because you build your own computer does not mean
>>>> you still do not purchase a Microsoft operating system.
>>>> I have built many computers and I purchased windows.
>>>> Linux has it's uses..but I can't play they games that I play
>>>> Doom 3, FarCry, Hal Life on Linux. So I have no choice
>>>> to use windows.
>>
>>>If you already own a full retail copy of Windows XP, you can
>>>legally transfer it from one computer to another. Why buy a
>>>computer with an OEM version of Windows if you've already got Windows?
>>
>> Depends on what is happening with the "old" computer.
>>
>> If one is keeping it [for spouse, offspring, resident MIL, or as
>> one's own second, third, or whatever computer], one will still
>> need an OS for it.
>>
>> If one is selling it, how easy is it to find buyers for an
>> OS-less computer that one cannot, legally, even demonstrate works
>> after one has put Windows into the new one? Strident as they
>> are, linux users are still a rather small minority of computer
>> users. And even those will want to see that the old box they're
>> buying still works.
>>
>> Only if one is salvaging components from the old one, and
>> trashing the rest is a need for an OS eliminated.
>>
>> Or, if the old computer came with OEM Win9x, WinME, whatever, one
>> can reinstall the old Windows version and hope someone buys into
>> getting WinME [spit!, even 3.1 would be preferable] or Win9x.
>>
>> At least that's how it looks to me.
>>
>> [Who had to include the retail copy of XPPro that I bought for it
>> with the old Dimension L733r I just sold, because the buyer was
>> too smart to let me stick him with the WinME that the L733r
>> originally came with.]
>> --
>> OJ III
>> [Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
>> Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]
>
>
> In response to your
>
>> If one is selling it, how easy is it to find buyers for an
>> OS-less computer that one cannot, legally, even demonstrate works
>> after one has put Windows into the new one? Strident as they
>> are, linux users are still a rather small minority of computer
>> users. And even those will want to see that the old box they're
>> buying still works.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...
>
> Computers without operating systems sell by 1000's or more a year
> on eBay.
> Plus you don't even see it person before you buy it, only a picture
> and description.
>
> Steve
>


And, legal or not (and I doubt ebay would allow it listed if Microsoft had a
problem with it) there are dozens, perhaps 100's of systems on ebay at any
given time that have an MS OS installed but the auction includes no OS or
software CD's. Those units are probably or near equal in number to used
systems over there sold with no OS - usually only tower, keyboard, and
mouse.


Stew
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 7:15:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
> Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
> The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.

No, I did not forget about them. If you are building on a tight budget, AMD
is clearly the better choice. But for the average system, a celeron or
sempron (new duron) is usually not considered.

At the low end and high end, AMD is a better value. But if you research
CAREFULLY, you will find that mid-level performance systems are about the
same price to build. If anything, Intel systems are a tad cheaper to build
in that sweet spot that most builders aim for, sometimes referred to as
"best bang for buck". -Dave
January 19, 2005 7:31:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in message
news:3580ukF4k8q6rU1@individual.net...
>> I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
>> Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
>> The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.
>
> No, I did not forget about them. If you are building on a tight budget,
> AMD is clearly the better choice. But for the average system, a celeron
> or sempron (new duron) is usually not considered.
>
> At the low end and high end, AMD is a better value. But if you research
> CAREFULLY, you will find that mid-level performance systems are about the
> same price to build. If anything, Intel systems are a tad cheaper to
> build in that sweet spot that most builders aim for, sometimes referred to
> as "best bang for buck". -Dave
>

Ok prove it.....do your own research using Intel parts and
finding that "best bang for the buck".
Then I will post a AMD build and compare to yours on mid-range system.

Steve
January 19, 2005 10:03:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

BANG FOR THE BUCK you know unless that's tattooed on your ass, your not
REALLY a AMD salesman. The best 'BANG' is a perfect name for AMD.


"Steve" <two_one@w7.org> wrote in message
news:5lAHd.56017$Wo.11038@lakeread08...
>
> "Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in message
> news:3580ukF4k8q6rU1@individual.net...
> >> I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
> >> Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
> >> The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.
> >
> > No, I did not forget about them. If you are building on a tight budget,
> > AMD is clearly the better choice. But for the average system, a celeron
> > or sempron (new duron) is usually not considered.
> >
> > At the low end and high end, AMD is a better value. But if you research
> > CAREFULLY, you will find that mid-level performance systems are about
the
> > same price to build. If anything, Intel systems are a tad cheaper to
> > build in that sweet spot that most builders aim for, sometimes referred
to
> > as "best bang for buck". -Dave
> >
>
> Ok prove it.....do your own research using Intel parts and
> finding that "best bang for the buck".
> Then I will post a AMD build and compare to yours on mid-range system.
>
> Steve
>
>
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 10:05:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

>
> Ok prove it.....do your own research using Intel parts and
> finding that "best bang for the buck".
> Then I will post a AMD build and compare to yours on mid-range system.
>
> Steve

I have done so already. My most recent build, I was looking at a P4 3.0
versus a Athlon 64 3000. At the time, the two processors were identical in
price, and identical in performance, with the AMD chip being faster at some
certain tasks and the P4 being faster at others. Then I looked at cost of
motherboards. Well-equipped ones were about thirty bucks more for the AMD
chip. All other parts were identical. See, I planned out both complete
systems on paper first, as I really didn't care which chip I used (AMD or
Intel, whatever). I went into the project thinking that the AMD would be
much cheaper. I was more than a little surprised to learn that not only was
the AMD system not cheaper at all, but that the Intel system could be made
for a little less money, without even putting any extraordinary effort into
it. It came down to selection of mainboards . . . there were LOTS more
chipsets and manufacturers putting out socket 478 mainboards at the time.
More mainboards, more competition, lower prices on similarly equipped
boards.

NOW, looking at pricewatch, it looks like the mid-range processors favor AMD
by about forty to sixty bucks. But add in the ~30 extra bucks you will need
for the mainboard, and it's about equal. Or to put it in perspective . . .
if you spent several hundred on computer parts, are you going to really
claim that (~10 to ~30 bucks less) is much cheaper? -Dave
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 11:49:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

S.Lewis:

> there are dozens, perhaps 100's of systems on ebay at any
> given time that have an MS OS installed but the auction includes no
> OS or software CD's.

I tried to sell an emachines PC without the restore disk on ebay and they
cancelled the auction and sent me an email stating that I would have to
state clearly in the auction that there were restore cds or that I had
reformatted the hard drive.

I'm sure they don't stop everyone but they got me on the first day.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 12:19:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Steve:

> Compare prices at http://www.pricewatch.com

Don't use pricewatch. I know the format is convenient but it's unrealiable
for pricing information. Half the companies that sell there practice bait-
n-switch (advertising errors) or put their products in the wrong category
intentionally.

I like dealtime.com, but there are others.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 12:47:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:15:00 -0500, "Dave C."
<mdupre@sff.net> wrote:

>> I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
>> Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
>> The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.
>
>No, I did not forget about them. If you are building on a tight budget, AMD
>is clearly the better choice. But for the average system, a celeron or
>sempron (new duron) is usually not considered.
>
>At the low end and high end, AMD is a better value. But if you research
>CAREFULLY, you will find that mid-level performance systems are about the
>same price to build. If anything, Intel systems are a tad cheaper to build
>in that sweet spot that most builders aim for, sometimes referred to as
>"best bang for buck". -Dave


No, that's just plain incorrect.
For $200, _today_ you can get at most a Prescott 3.0 GHz, if
you are a seasoned 'netizen. In a shop, people are paying
$260 after shop markup. At older software, a $100 Athlon XP
Barton is faster. At newer softare (possible excluding
video editing with newer apps, but not necessarily) the
Athlon 64 3400+ (currently just under $200 mark) is faster.
Actually even the A64 3200+ is faster.

However, you seem to be a bit confused about what "high end"
system means too. P4 uses significantly more power.
Requires more expensive heatsink for quiet operation.
Requires more expensive power supply, another fan per same
ambient case temps. That may be $40 right there, maybe even
for power supply alone as higher amperage 12V PSU are
disproportionately higher priced.

So we have $40, plus considering that A64 3200 is closer
performance, it can be had for $167. Already a $77 dollar
difference for a slower P4 that only costs $200.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 12:58:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ogden Johnson III wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
> [Who had to include the retail copy of XPPro that I bought for it
> with the old Dimension L733r I just sold, because the buyer was
> too smart to let me stick him with the WinME that the L733r
> originally came with.]

I think, if you really peruse the EULA, you will find you violated
it. You are not supposed to pass on anything, just buy more. Your
customer MAY find his copy destroyed, because the EULA gives MS the
right to insist on an upgrade (at the customers expense) at any
time and the right to remove anything they deem improper.

Always remember, the sole purpose of Windoze is to enrich
MicroShaft at every twist and turn.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 3:04:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:58:30 GMT, CBFalconer
<cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ogden Johnson III wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>>
>> [Who had to include the retail copy of XPPro that I bought for it
>> with the old Dimension L733r I just sold, because the buyer was
>> too smart to let me stick him with the WinME that the L733r
>> originally came with.]
>
>I think, if you really peruse the EULA, you will find you violated
>it. You are not supposed to pass on anything, just buy more. Your
>customer MAY find his copy destroyed, because the EULA gives MS the
>right to insist on an upgrade (at the customers expense) at any
>time and the right to remove anything they deem improper.
>
>Always remember, the sole purpose of Windoze is to enrich
>MicroShaft at every twist and turn.


What exactly do you mean by "You are not supposed to pass on
anything, just buy more." ?

It would seem everything is in order if the WinXP was either
retail version or OEM sold with hardware that remained with
that system, providing either way the COA (certificate of
authenticity) stays with the system.

The WinME on the other hand, is a writeoff, can't be used at
all (at least according to typical OEM EULA).

Real question though is if the buyer even benefitted.
733MHz system isn't slow but it's going to be slower running
XP that ME, at least after all the junk in ME is disabled to
the point where it's just a slightly newer version of
Win98SE. Over and over I hear how people found Win9x
instable. Must be a different win9x, because I can set up a
box with stable drivers and stable apps and it crashes so
seldom it's not worth mentioning. It "might" not run for 8
months' uptime, but for typical use, > $100 saved is a good
deal for someone buying a system like P733 which isn't worth
but a couple hundred if that.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 6:35:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

BobR wrote:

>
> Mac Cool wrote in message ...
>>Dan:
>>> is XP Home or XP Pro the better OS?
>>
>>Home is a lite version of Pro. The MS website is the best resource for
>>deciding which version you want.
>
> Linux is $0.00!!!
> [ the CDs will cost you $15.us ]
>
>
>>
>>> At Dell.com I can get a system w/
>>> 3.40GHz, 800FSB,
>
> Pentium 4 with motherboard - $200.us
>
>>> 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (4x256M)
>
> $150.us approx. (2x512M. (depends on stinkin' rebates))
>
>>> 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
>
> $50.us (Seagate or WD (rebates again))
>
>>> 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
>
> $50.us
>
>>> 17 in 1704FPT UltrasharpT Digital Flat Panel Display
>
> $40.us (CRT) ($130.us - 19")
>
>>> 128MB PCI ExpressT x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI RadeonT X300 SE
>
> Non-Leading edge cards, approx $75.us
>
>>> for $1408.00 w/free shipping. I've shopped around a lot and it seems
>>> like a good deal. I'd love to be able to build my own at sites like
>>> sysbuilder.com or cpusolutions.com but they seem a bit pricey.
>>
>>It's unlikely you will find a cheaper price than Dell.
>>--
>>Mac Cool
>
> Tower case with 350watt power(atx) $40.us
>
> total - $605.us
> + $100.us ($50.us per hour x 2 hours to put it all together.)(pay
> yourself!) + $15.us for Debian GNU/Linux OS (comes with 8000+ free
> software packages)
>
> == $720.us
> [ prices from Fry's, CyberGuys, CyberGeeks, etc.]
>
> That's cheaper than Dell! <G>
> If the OP can't use a screwdriver, the Dell is a good deal!
>
> Fry's has/had some 'weaker' machines for $200.us! (Lindows OS)
>
> [ sorry, I couldn't resist! "the devil made me do it". ]
> Bob R
> POVrookie
> --
> MinGW (GNU compiler): http://www.mingw.org/
> Dev-C++ IDE: http://www.bloodshed.net/
> POVray: http://www.povray.org/
> alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++: ftp://snurse-l.org/pub/acllc-c++/faq

Don't apologize, you're right, but Linux really isn't for anyone who just
wants to stick the cd in tray, install the OS and have it just "work". You
should also make it clear that Linux is not a free copy of Windows.

I know we've been through all that (and then some) since forever, so let's
avoid a "WinLin" debate. But, if you are a student, there are literally
hundreds of educational and scientific programs that will pretty much do
your homework for you, and above all, there is no such thing as a virus.

Of course, there is such an animal as pay software for Linux, but that is
mostly corporate stuff.

I am writing this with KNode, and my OS is Mandrake-10.1. But I have a
couple of Windows machines on the network as well, so I have to get them
all to play nice. It isn't for everyone, but it is my personal choice.

You can request a free live cd of Ubuntu here:

http://shipit.ubuntulinux.org

This will run on your cdrom without changing your system at all, and will
give you a feel of how things work in Linux.

Michael
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 8:17:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

kony wrote:
> <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
>> Always remember, the sole purpose of Windoze is to enrich
>> MicroShaft at every twist and turn.
>
> What exactly do you mean by "You are not supposed to pass on
> anything, just buy more." ?

I recall hearing of some instances a few years ago where some
charities were passing on old systems complete with MsDos or
Windows mounted. Micro$haft stepped in and pointed out that their
licenses were non-transferable, and that the charities or end users
had to buy fresh copies. I believe this is still their policy, and
is embedded in the EULA. I concede I may be wrong, or that MS may
no longer be attempting to enforce this.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 8:52:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

>>I think, if you really peruse the EULA, you will find you violated
>>>it. You are not supposed to pass on anything, just buy more. Your
>>>customer MAY find his copy destroyed, because the EULA gives MS the
>>>right to insist on an upgrade (at the customers expense) at any
>>>time and the right to remove anything they deem improper.
>>>
>>>Always remember, the sole purpose of Windoze is to enrich
>>>MicroShaft at every twist and turn.
>
>
>
> What exactly do you mean by "You are not supposed to pass on
> anything, just buy more." ?
>
> It would seem everything is in order if the WinXP was either
> retail version or OEM sold with hardware that remained with
> that system, providing either way the COA (certificate of
> authenticity) stays with the system.

I've been lurking in the "microsoft.public.windows.general" group
and the Microsoft flunkies are nuts on this subject, so I've
absorbed a bit of information.

If you buy a retail copy, you can sell it by itself, or you can
transfer it to a new computer as often as you like, as long as you
don't install copies on other computers, or sell copies. The idea
is that it can be transferred, but it can't legally be multiplied,
even by the original owner. This doesn't mean you can't make
backups -- you just can't install a backup copy on a second machine.

The OEM version is a completely different kettle of fish. It is
attached at the hip to the computer with which it was sold. You
can sell that computer with the OEM version installed, and its CD,
but you cannot legally transfer it to any other computer, and you
cannot sell the OEM version by itself (since it would be installed
on another computer). People with OEM versions run into trouble
when they upgrade their system so much that Microsoft considers it
a different computer.

Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
computer with Windows installed, you are paying what is known as
the "Microsoft tax" and that is a good reason to roll your own system.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:10:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Al Smith:

> Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
> computer with Windows installed, you are paying what is known as
> the "Microsoft tax" and that is a good reason to roll your own system.

How many times do you need to be corrected on this point before you stop
posting it? No one requires you to buy a computer with Windows
preinstalled, even Dell sells machines without Windows although they are
a bitch to find. There is no such thing as a MS tax except in your head.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:15:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

CBFalconer:
> I recall hearing of some instances a few years ago where some
> charities were passing on old systems complete with MsDos or
> Windows mounted. Micro$haft stepped in and pointed out that their
> licenses were non-transferable, and that the charities or end users
> had to buy fresh copies. I believe this is still their policy, and
> is embedded in the EULA. I concede I may be wrong, or that MS may
> no longer be attempting to enforce this.

Just read the EULA before posting nonsense. OEM licenses stay with the
machine, independantly bought copies are transferable but cannot be
installed on more than one machine at a time. What you are referring to is
charities distributing computers with Windows preloaded that they did not
have licenses for. It's called stealing. Just because a charity does it,
doesn't negate the law and it doesn't make MS the bad guy. They have a
legal requirement to protect their rights.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:27:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote:
> Al Smith:
>
>> Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
>> computer with Windows installed, you are paying what is known as
>> the "Microsoft tax" and that is a good reason to roll your own system.
>
> How many times do you need to be corrected on this point before you stop
> posting it? No one requires you to buy a computer with Windows
> preinstalled, even Dell sells machines without Windows although they are
> a bitch to find. There is no such thing as a MS tax except in your head.

The voice of a lamb being led to the slaughter, or a well trained
MS consumer. Just as you have to work to avoid sales or income
tax, you have to work to avoid MS tax.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 1:49:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote:
> CBFalconer:
>
>> I recall hearing of some instances a few years ago where some
>> charities were passing on old systems complete with MsDos or
>> Windows mounted. Micro$haft stepped in and pointed out that their
>> licenses were non-transferable, and that the charities or end users
>> had to buy fresh copies. I believe this is still their policy, and
>> is embedded in the EULA. I concede I may be wrong, or that MS may
>> no longer be attempting to enforce this.
>
> Just read the EULA before posting nonsense. OEM licenses stay with
> the machine, independantly bought copies are transferable but cannot
> be installed on more than one machine at a time. What you are
> referring to is charities distributing computers with Windows
> preloaded that they did not have licenses for. It's called stealing.
> Just because a charity does it, doesn't negate the law and it
> doesn't make MS the bad guy. They have a legal requirement to
> protect their rights.

Nonsense. These machines had originally been bought with the OS
preinstalled, and it was still there. Joe Q. Blow is not going to
preserve the sales slips etc. from the original purchase and pass
them on to the Salvation Army or whoever. It's called
rapaciousness on the part of Micro$haft.

Why should I read the EULA? I won't let Windows XP within a mile
of my machines. I have seen enough of it in the past to know that
this is a good idea.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 2:06:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

CBFalconer:

> The voice of a lamb being led to the slaughter, or a well trained
> MS consumer. Just as you have to work to avoid sales or income
> tax, you have to work to avoid MS tax.

I am well trained. Been using MS Windows for many years and it is vastly
superior to all alternatives. Don't blame your deficiencies on MS.

--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 2:20:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

CBFalconer:
>> Just read the EULA before posting nonsense. OEM licenses stay with
>> the machine, independantly bought copies are transferable but cannot
>> be installed on more than one machine at a time. What you are
>> referring to is charities distributing computers with Windows
>> preloaded that they did not have licenses for. It's called stealing.
>> Just because a charity does it, doesn't negate the law and it
>> doesn't make MS the bad guy. They have a legal requirement to
>> protect their rights.
>
> Nonsense. These machines had originally been bought with the OS
> preinstalled, and it was still there. Joe Q. Blow is not going to
> preserve the sales slips etc. from the original purchase and pass
> them on to the Salvation Army or whoever. It's called
> rapaciousness on the part of Micro$haft.

If they don't have a license, they can't be sold with an operating
system. It doesn't matter if a charity does it. Educate yourself, all
companies have a legal obligation to protect their rights or they can
lose them.

> Why should I read the EULA?

Why indeed? Much more fun to make up junk and claim ignorance.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 4:35:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

(major snippage)

> Actually it is a fact that P4 uses more power,
> and it is a fact that power supplies are priced based on
> capacity, on average. Maybe you get luck and find a sale,
> or maybe you always buy more than you need, but that doesn't
> change things... anyone can pay more for more.
>
> Except that this "right power supply" has to be higher
> capacity to support the P4!
>
> Not extraordinary, simply MORE. Again, indisputable facts.
> P4 creates more heat. It IS necesary to have more airflow
> to remove that heat for the case to stay at same internal
> ambient temp. Likewise if someone doesn't always want to
> hear their heatsink, it takes a beefier heatsink to keep the
> P4 at same temp.
>
> Why am I getting the feeling you're an Intel shill?

The P4 doesn't use THAT much more power. If you purchase the right power
supply for an Athlon64 system, you can put that same exact power supply in a
similar P4 system and it will work fine. A power supply does not need to be
a higher capacity to support a P4. However, if your system uses (for
example) exactly 300W maximum, only an idiot would actually buy a power
supply rated at (for example) 300W maximum. So you ALWAYS buy a power
supply that is bigger than you need. That is, unless you want to replace
the power supply along with every upgrade you do to your computer. (not
very smart)

If a case is properly cooled, it will be properly cooled for either
processor. And you don't need to spend a lot of money or have a really loud
system to have it cooled properly. YES, you can throw a bazillion really
loud fans into any system. But any computer (Athlon64 or P4) should need no
more than one (quiet) case fan, along with the (quiet) power supply fans(s)
to cool it PROPERLY. If you need more cooling than that, the reason you
need more cooling has NOTHING to do with the CPU. For example, if you have
(4) 10,000RPM hard drives, you might need some more case fans to keep that
system cool.

There are cheap, QUIET HSF solutions available for both CPUs. And yes, the
performance of the two CPUs, Athlon 64 vs. P4, is identical. I've been
called an Intel shill before. The truth is, I prefer AMD processors, and
USUALLY build with AMD processors. But my most recent two builds were both
P4. In the first P4 build, I was working on a very strict budget and found
that the system I needed to build was actually cheaper to build (and thus I
could keep it within budget) if I used a P4 3.0 Prescott. And no, I didn't
use a cheapie mainboard, either . . . but Athlon64 mainboards -at the time-
were really expensive in comparison to their socket 478 counterparts. That
P4 system I built ended up being so fast and stable, it impressed the heck
outta me, and I was comparing it to similar AMD systems. So for my next
build, I deliberately chose the P4. My next build, I might (probably will)
go the Athlon64 route.

But I get so fricking tired of seeing people post that AMD is faster and
cheaper than Intel, period. Why is it that if I repeat the opinion of many
well-regarded experts, I am called a shill for that? If I'm a shill, what
does that make tomshardware, anandtech and sharky extreme, for example? Are
they all Intel shills, also? The facts are, Intel P4 systems are just as
easy and cheap to build, and perform as well as Athlon64 systems. Yeah, at
any specific moment, the -total- cost of a computer system might favor AMD
by less than it costs to fill the gas tank on my compact car. But that's
not always true, as processor prices are constantly changing. Just a few
months ago, prices of mid-range processors were identical, and mainboards
for the P4 were actually cheaper, making the P4 system (overall) cheaper to
build. Right NOW, if you want a P4 system, it will cost you a tad more than
an Athlon64 system. So little extra that you won't even notice, next to the
total cost of the computer. -Dave
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 4:35:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in message
news:35acnpF4ldqtmU1@individual.net...
> (major snippage)
>

<nearly complete snippage, and idiotic crosspost slashed>


"Die evil thread, die."


Stew
January 20, 2005 11:48:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Dan wrote:
> I'm looking for a PC w/at least a 3.4Mhz processor, 1
> Gig RAM, 128 Meg Vid. RAM and 80 gig hard drive. A 2nd 10k RPM 80 gig
> HD would be nice but I think it'd be cheaper to by that on
aftermarket
> & install it. I'd also want a 17 or 18" LCD. I'm looking to spend
> $1400ish.


what the hell! what happened to the op? 54 posts of build your own and
amd vs intel! listen dan, get your dell. it's a fine deal and you can
probably get it for under fourteen hundred dollars from them. full
warranty, tech support,6 months free internet, the whole she-bang.
although that lcd may cost ya, if you wait for the right time(much of
the time these days)dell throws one in at no extra cost. the size
depends on the system you choose. for a machine with the above
mentioned specs, it would be a seventeen inch :) 
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 12:36:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On 20 Jan 2005 11:20:05 GMT, Mac Cool <Mac@2cool.com> wrote:

>CBFalconer:
>>> Just read the EULA before posting nonsense. OEM licenses stay with
>>> the machine, independantly bought copies are transferable but cannot
>>> be installed on more than one machine at a time. What you are
>>> referring to is charities distributing computers with Windows
>>> preloaded that they did not have licenses for. It's called stealing.
>>> Just because a charity does it, doesn't negate the law and it
>>> doesn't make MS the bad guy. They have a legal requirement to
>>> protect their rights.
>>
>> Nonsense. These machines had originally been bought with the OS
>> preinstalled, and it was still there. Joe Q. Blow is not going to
>> preserve the sales slips etc. from the original purchase and pass
>> them on to the Salvation Army or whoever. It's called
>> rapaciousness on the part of Micro$haft.
>
>If they don't have a license, they can't be sold with an operating
>system. It doesn't matter if a charity does it. Educate yourself, all
>companies have a legal obligation to protect their rights or they can
>lose them.

One story I recall regarding the charities was that they had
received the systems with windows installed, but had not
received the CD, license, or other misc. included items.

If that is the case, then it is more a matter of Microsoft
attacking the charity because they can't locate the original
owner. Since, as Microsoft states, the operating system is
tied to the original/OEM system, then they can't declare
that BOTH the original owner that retained the license, AND
the charity running the operating system licensed to that
box, are in the wrong. One or the other would have the
right to use the OS, and in this case it would the charity.

Problem then is PROVING the OS is licensed for that box.
MS could know this based upon selling the licenses to the
OEM, and that there is a unique key within the OS
installation, but instead they'd rather just assume "you're
not licensed unless you prove to us you are licensed"...
which is a large part of why i dont' like the license at
all... it should not be "guilty until proven innocent".

Then there's the other school of thought, that the OS is
only licensed if they have that certificate. Once upon a
time they mostly distributed the certificate as a real
certificate, but now a sticker on the case most often.
That's great for keeping track of it, but becomes
problematic if user changes cases but overall system remains
same. If MS argues that the case is the system, so be it,
but then some will want to build a different system in the
case.

The other problem is cleaning up. Often I've received old
boxes from rather filthy places. Heavy smokers, gravel
quarries, homes with multiple pets (pet hair), etc. Point
being, easiest way to clean all that up is as little
physical contact as possible, a leaf blower, water hose,
etc, but one now has to be careful about damaging that paper
sticker on the case.
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 1:11:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

BobR wrote:

> To answer some other posts;
> Yeah, Linux ain't the easiest to install, but, I think us newbies
have put a
> bug in the GNU ear and they are working on making a push-button
install.

Recent Linux distributions are really easy to install (except for
the purposefully geeky "hardcore" distributions). LiveCD distributions
like Knoppix can even be run directly off of the CD. The only button
you need to push to "install" is the CD drive button (and not even
that if your optical drive is a slot loader). Windows has never been
so easy to install!

If nothing else, Knoppix and other liveCDs make life a LOT nicer
for a technician working on a Windows PC when the OS gets fubar'd.
Without even opening up the case, you can pop in a working OS and
get at data; transfer it over the net; download drivers; whatever...

For me, Knoppix is worth if for QTParted alone. It's a Partition
Magic clone. I have long simply lived without a decent partitioning
utility because I neither wanted to spend the money on Partition
Magic nor did I want to pirate it.

I would heartily recommend dual booting Windows/Linux for anyone
who is currently used to Windows but who also likes to tinker with
his computer. You literally have nothing to lose, and it's fun to
play around with. The biggest difference in the Linux experience
is software installation--it's such a breeze compared to Windows
and you DON'T have to deal with nagware/crippleware pop-ups or
restrictions. There are just so many nice little utilities in
Windows which are nice but not spend-the-$20-shareware-fee nice.
It takes a little while getting used to the Linux software world
where virtually all of those nice little utilities are of the
freeware--just-install-it-and-that's-it-it-just-works-no-strings-attached
variety. Once you get used to it, though, it's hard to go back to
Windows.

Isaac Kuo
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 1:43:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

>>>Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
>>>>> computer with Windows installed, you are paying what is known as
>>>>> the "Microsoft tax" and that is a good reason to roll your own system.
>>
>>>
>>> How many times do you need to be corrected on this point before you stop
>>> posting it? No one requires you to buy a computer with Windows
>>> preinstalled, even Dell sells machines without Windows although they are
>>> a bitch to find. There is no such thing as a MS tax except in your head.
>
>
> The voice of a lamb being led to the slaughter, or a well trained
> MS consumer. Just as you have to work to avoid sales or income
> tax, you have to work to avoid MS tax.

What he said. :-) Sure, you can avoid paying the Microsoft tax, if
you jump through hoops like a trained seal to do so. You don't see
many computers sold retail without Windows. They are hard to find,
and offer a limited choice.
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 1:46:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> Why should I read the EULA? I won't let Windows XP within a mile
> of my machines. I have seen enough of it in the past to know that
> this is a good idea.

I wish I had your determination. I took a long look at Mandrake
but finally upgraded to Windows XP. I feel like such a Micro-slut.
On the plus side, I stuck with my oath to never pay Microsoft
another dollar as long as I draw breath. I haven't violated that
oath in six years, and counting.
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 1:46:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Al Smith" <invalid@address.com> wrote in message
news:ixWHd.215045$Np3.9042286@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
>> Why should I read the EULA? I won't let Windows XP within a mile
>> of my machines. I have seen enough of it in the past to know that
>> this is a good idea.
>
> I wish I had your determination. I took a long look at Mandrake but
> finally upgraded to Windows XP. I feel like such a Micro-slut. On the plus
> side, I stuck with my oath to never pay Microsoft another dollar as long
> as I draw breath. I haven't violated that oath in six years, and counting.

So, you stole XP? If you haven't paid in six years, and XP hasn't been out
that long.....
January 21, 2005 4:02:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote in message ...
>
>"BobR" <RemoveBadBobR@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<snip>
>>
>> == $720.us
>> [ prices from Fry's, CyberGuys, CyberGeeks, etc.]
>>
>> That's cheaper than Dell! <G>
>> If the OP can't use a screwdriver, the Dell is a good deal!
>> Fry's has/had some 'weaker' machines for $200.us! (Lindows OS)
>> [ sorry, I couldn't resist! "the devil made me do it". ]
>> -- Bob R POVrookie
>>
>
>Cheaper than Dell when you replace the LCD with a CRT, replace the PCI-e
>video card with a $75 generic, etc. etc.
>
>A Toyota Echo is cheaper than a Mercedes S500, but so ?
>Tom

I'd love to drive the Mercedes (or anything faster (racer blood in me)),
BUT, some of us can't even afford a used Toy' Echo.

I was simply showing an option for those on a short budget. I built this
P4-2.4Ghz, 512Meg, 4xAGP(32M), for approx. $500.us (should take me to 2008,
using the 5 year rule)(I prefer Adventure games when not learning C++, so I
don't need a screaming-fast machine.).

To answer some other posts;
Yeah, Linux ain't the easiest to install, but, I think us newbies have put a
bug in the GNU ear and they are working on making a push-button install. May
not slay the giant, but has him worried! Even 'Big Blue' is joining the
GNU/Linux bandwagon. <G>

[ I'll limit any further posts in this thread to the ...pc.homebuilt NG.]
--
Bob R
POVrookie
Can't walk more than 50 yards, need job ($1.us/hour would help).
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 4:09:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Al Smith:

> What he said. :-) Sure, you can avoid paying the Microsoft tax, if
> you jump through hoops like a trained seal to do so. You don't see
> many computers sold retail without Windows. They are hard to find,
> and offer a limited choice.

You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that; use
an alternative, nothing wrong with that; or steal a copy of Windows and
then run around whining about MS. Frank Herbert once wrote something
similiar to, 'we despise those we have wronged' and I have found it
generally to be true.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 4:40:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On 20 Jan 2005, you wrote in alt.comp.hardware:

> Then there's the other school of thought, that the OS is
> only licensed if they have that certificate. Once upon a
> time they mostly distributed the certificate as a real
> certificate, but now a sticker on the case most often.
> That's great for keeping track of it, but becomes
> problematic if user changes cases but overall system remains
> same. If MS argues that the case is the system, so be it,
> but then some will want to build a different system in the
> case.

It's like all systems, rarely are they perfect but until someone invents a
viable alternative that solves the same problems, then the current system
will likely continue. MS sells to a wide range of customers, requiring a
variety of licensing schemes that are fair to BOTH the customer and MS.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 5:06:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

BobR:

> Linux ain't the easiest to install

I never had any problems installing it, it's getting it to work after you
install it.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 6:26:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote:
> Al Smith:
>
>> What he said. :-) Sure, you can avoid paying the Microsoft tax, if
>> you jump through hoops like a trained seal to do so. You don't see
>> many computers sold retail without Windows. They are hard to find,
>> and offer a limited choice.
>
> You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that;
> use an alternative, nothing wrong with that; or steal a copy of
> Windows and then run around whining about MS. Frank Herbert once
> wrote something similiar to, 'we despise those we have wronged' and I
> have found it generally to be true.

ROTFLLMAO at the very idea of MS being wronged. 'Tis a consumation
devoutly to be wished.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 8:39:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On 21 Jan 2005 01:09:04 GMT, Mac Cool <Mac@2cool.com> wrote:

>Al Smith:
>
>> What he said. :-) Sure, you can avoid paying the Microsoft tax, if
>> you jump through hoops like a trained seal to do so. You don't see
>> many computers sold retail without Windows. They are hard to find,
>> and offer a limited choice.
>
>You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that; use
>an alternative, nothing wrong with that; or steal a copy of Windows and
>then run around whining about MS. Frank Herbert once wrote something
>similiar to, 'we despise those we have wronged' and I have found it
>generally to be true.

That's a bit presumptuous?
Plenty of people who pay for windows in one way or another
aren't particularly happy either.
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 11:18:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that; use
> an alternative, nothing wrong with that; or steal a copy of Windows and
> then run around whining about MS. Frank Herbert once wrote something
> similiar to, 'we despise those we have wronged' and I have found it
> generally to be true.

Frank Herbert got the cart before the horse. You're more apt to
wrong someone you dispise. This doesn't apply to large
corporations, which wrong people to make greater profits.
Anonymous
January 21, 2005 11:24:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.computer,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

>>I wish I had your determination. I took a long look at Mandrake but
>>> finally upgraded to Windows XP. I feel like such a Micro-slut. On the plus
>>> side, I stuck with my oath to never pay Microsoft another dollar as long
>>> as I draw breath. I haven't violated that oath in six years, and counting.
>
>
> So, you stole XP? If you haven't paid in six years, and XP hasn't been out
> that long.....

I looked at it this way. Microsoft pissed me off so royally, I
vowed never to give them another dime. On the other hand,
Microsoft was forcing me to upgrade by phasing out Windows 98 and
phasing in Windows XP. I tested out Linux and found it wasn't
ready for the desktop. What were my choices?
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