A Theory....

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 6, 2003

Ok, just for a change of pace, here's a theory. See what you think.

Alot of people are reporting a lack of R9600XTs out there (<A HREF="http://buy.ati.com/shopati/product.asp?category=AP&part_no=100-437100+US&find_category=AP&find_description=Products&find_part_desc=&country=USA" target="_new">here check ATI's own site even</A>).

Now I have a theory about this.

Like I mentioned/linked a while back there was talk about there being <A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12161" target="_new">a respin of the R9600XT</A> to make it more competitive with the FX5700U, well I think that that rumour is turning into reality, and perhaps even replacing the memory modules too.
IF ATI was a little scared of by Hexus' early release benchmarks showing the XT doing poorly, they may have felt that a respin was the right idea. I'm persoanlly against Rev.1 vs Rev.2, but I would've like to have seen a better version of the R9600XT. The thing that will interest me will be if the OEM-partners are also delayed. PowerColor's Bravo seems to have some good ideas of where to take this card. Perhaps the partners will get the first batch for current cards, and then the respin will come out later for primarily BBA cards and also OEM partners. However they better also be granted access to these respun chips or else they could ruffle feathers.

Anywhoo, just a theory to solicit some thoughts from others. So watcha think?

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

scottchen · Nov 6, 2003

I guess ATI could use Hynix 2.2ns memory and clock the card at 550/400(800mhz DDR) then i'm pretty sure it'll beat the 5700U. Hell I think it might even be able to compete with the 9800np if ATI clock it that high.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

Ion · Nov 6, 2003

Then ATI wouldn't make enough money from 9600XT. :tongue:
(remind me of 9500)

speeduk · Nov 6, 2003

They could just enable all the features and pipelines etc and almost double the performance if they wanted.....

My system spec: Fast PC<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
"It's not the spoon that bends, it's only yourself."

cleeve · Nov 6, 2003

9600's only have 4 pipelines. There's nothing to enable.

a 256 bit bus might help though, and might be cheaper than faster ram... Might bring the 9600XT up to the 9700 non-pro in performance...

------------------
Radeon 9500 (hardmodded to PRO, o/c to 322/322)
AMD AthlonXP 2400+ (o/c to 2600+ with 143 fsb)
3dMark03: 4055

scottchen · Nov 6, 2003

Then again if you enable the 256bit bus, it'll close the performance gap between the 9800XT and the 9600XT too much, then most people may start buying 9600XT because it's half the price, and lower the sales on the 9800XT.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 6, 2003

I think if they were to open it to 256 bit, then the smart thing would be to LOWER the memory speed. The effective trhoughput would be much more, but the cost would be lower and the overclockers couldn't beat the R9800 with it.

3.3ns memory runnning 256bit @ 275 (likely couldn't overclock much beyond 300-315) would give it a good boost, then match it with a 550 core, and there you go. An FX5700 beater that's still well beyond the reach of even the R9800non-pro.

Just another thought.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

scottchen · Nov 6, 2003

That's a good idea, you should send an email to ATI.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

HardWareBoss · Nov 6, 2003

It'a about time ATI fixes this mess. Looks like FX5700 kicked their butt.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 6, 2003

I wouldn't say tht the FX5700 kicks it's butt. The reviews NOW look very much on par except of course the FX5700 killing in Q3, and losing in PS2.0/DX9 titles (and surprisinginly [at the time] low performance in Max Payne 2), however putting the 3.3ns memory on those card,while upping the clock on the memory of the AIW cards makes NO SENSE to me.

Scottchen, yeah I'd like to but I don't think that ATI cares what I think. Otherwise the EVIL GOALIE would be more prominent in their advertising campaign. Just think an EA sport NHL 2004 and EVIL GOALIE R9600XT tie-in. Awesome!

I think whatever they have planned is already in the works.

Hopefully it will be where WE would logically take the card, at least restoring the 2.86 ns memory so that we CAN overclock them to where they should be.

550/325 stock taken to 600/350 overclocked seems like a good idea to me, and would garner widespread interest IMO.
The 550/325 stock would likely help it in the benchmarks that the R9600XT is lower on now, except maybe Q3, which is a joke of a benchmark nowadays IMO.

Once again, just a tought.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 7, 2003

I never posted this (was on day off) link, but just look at this review from Xbit. Pretty detailed.

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/fx5700ultra-9600xt.html" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/fx5700ultra-9600xt.html</A>

I do find it funny that they still consider the FX PS2.0+ and the Radeons just PS2.0.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

HardWareBoss · Nov 7, 2003

Well IF ATI puts the 2.86ns in the 9600XT I may have to buy one.

HardWareBoss · Nov 7, 2003

Plus $150. That works for me.

ZZSpaceman · Nov 9, 2003

That would be nice, but I don't think the core would hit 550 MHz with any kind of yield. 500/400 is a safe bet with 2.2ns memory. Now if they would port it on to a 90nm process it would probably outperform the 9800np.

I wish the would move the 9800pro to at least a 130nm process like the 9600pro, get the clock up & heat down.

ZZSpaceman

scottchen · Nov 9, 2003

Umm, my friend did 550mhz on his Sapphire 9600pro. He had the ZM80C-HP with Smart Case fan 2 for cooling. If ATI increased voltage a little bit i'm sure they could hit 550mhz without any problems.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

ZZSpaceman · Nov 9, 2003

It is a matter of yield and reliability. To yield on 550 MHz parts ATI would need to get better than 600 MHz from the device. In addition, as the voltage goes up reliability goes down. I have been following the OV threads and I have seen more failures than successes @>525 MHz. Even the successes have some artifacts. The part designed to operate at a core frequency of 400 MHz, getting 500+ is great.

Anyway, ATI would not do anything to push the 9600 past the 9700, let alone allow it get close to the 9800.

ZZSpaceman

scottchen · Nov 9, 2003

I think Ape has the best idea, enable the 256bit memory. And make it still have the crappy 3.3ns memory, so there's no way the memory bandwidth could get to 18G or greater.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

HardWareBoss · Nov 9, 2003

9600Pro core 467Mhz Mem 716Mhz. Beat that.

scottchen · Nov 9, 2003

You bought 1? My friend's memory was 2.86ns but wasn't samsung so it struggled at 340mhz, but his core went up to 547mhz stable.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 10, 2003

BB R9600Pro (bought first week availible);
Core 535, memory 365(730) on Stock cooling.
Consider yourself beaten, like a rented mule! :tongue:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

HardWareBoss · Nov 10, 2003

Looks like you beat those guys in the article I read at HardOCP.

HardWareBoss · Nov 10, 2003

No don't own one. Did you sell your card?

TheGreatGrapeApe · Nov 10, 2003

I like to be cutting edge, but after a few incidents, the doctors won't let me use knives anymore!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

scottchen · Nov 10, 2003

I sold my 9800np, right now still on the hunt for another 1. I'm going to keep looking for another 2 weeks, then i'll give up and get the 9600pro.

-Intel PIV 2.6C @ 3.575G -Asus P4P800 -OCZ Copper 2x256 4000EL memory @ 275mhz 3-4-4-8 -Sapphire 9800np @ 432/760 -SB audigy -120G Maxtor Diamond Plus9 S-ATA150 hdd -450 Enermax PSU

HardWareBoss · Nov 11, 2003

So who cuts your steak for you? Or did you buy a slicer?

A Theory....

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