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browser wars

Forum Old Man/Woman's Club : Other - browser wars

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What kind of competition are you talking about? Internet browsers? Well, personally I think that I would prefer IE 5 over NS 6. Look at other posts and read their opinions. So is IE 5 more successful than NS 6 because of the monopoly power or the user preference of users who tried both Netscape and IE?

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I know, thats why my development is primarily for IE and then the necessary duplications are made to make 'em work on Netscape/Mozilla.

If only everyone adhered to the W3C specifications...

Any way, what version of the browsers were you talking about when you said IE supports CSS while Netscape doesn't?

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

Quote :

So is IE 5 more successful than NS 6 because of the monopoly power or the user preference of users who tried both Netscape and IE?

Monopoly power, and I say this specifically because very few people HAVE actually tried both--as well as for other reasons.

I am not saying Netscape 6 is better as I really don't know. Microsoft did eventually build a good browser, but it is significant to note that they didn't manage to do so until AFTER they choked back Netscape. If Netscape had been able to continue competing unhindered, we do not know if Microsoft would have ever passed them up. Now Netscape is coming from behind. Version 6 is a good step for them, but I doubt they will ever regain their old market share, or even a significant portion of it. Microsoft's front door delivery is too efficient, especially for the Dell-and-Gateway-buying computer illiterate masses. And switching browsers is a pain for anyone.

I also don't think that Microsoft ever would have made a good browser without their fear of Netscape. Netscape used to be Microsoft's #1 enemy, as they were the only ones to have a market share advantage over Microsoft in a major desktop software market. How much innovation did we see between Windows 98SE and Windows ME? Did Windows 2000 finally bridge the two Windows versions into one? Windows XP looks like it may be a good product... Oh, has Linux come along and put some pressure on MS lately? This is probably not a coincidence folks. Still, I would feel a lot more confident in Windows XP if Linux really posed a threat to the average desktop. As it is, Windows XP looks pretty bloated already, though hopefully it will be a good product overall.

One more thing... CSS and W3C you guys will have to take on your own. My experience with web authoring has been limited to straight HTML in a text editor and just a tiny bit of playing around with FrontPage. :tongue:

Cheers,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

Hmmm you were fast replying even before I was able to refute Warden. Alright, as a lesson, I'll send THIS to you bleh heh heh.

Quote :

1. Sure people have a choice. And people are lazy. Companies know people are lazy so they use advertizing to get their attention, then make their product as easy to get as possible. Microsoft did this, but then invisibly delivered their product directly to people, via a method that was available to them only because of their monopoly position in the OS market--a method that is not at all available to any other company. Lets say that your shampoo salesman also owns UPS, which we'll pretend owns 85% of the shipping business, and he uses his position to deliver shampoo to every doorstep in the country (but won't do so for anybody else). Everybody else wanting to sell shampoo has to hope the customer picks up their catalog and orders it. This shampoo guy can also use the money from his shipping business to subsidize free shampoo for the nation until all the independent shampoo companies go out of business. This is a better (though extremely cheesy ) illustration of Microsoft's browser tactics.

2. I am a little too fuzzy on the web standards issue to discuss it in great detail. I will read up on it a little and post if I find something interesting.

As for ActiveX and Java... Microsoft licensed Java and then changed it around. This created sort of a double-standard in Java. Netscape supported the true Java, as defined by the owner, Sun Microsystems, but couldn't support all Java because of Microsoft's confusion tactics. Of course, Microsoft comes forward with their own, proprietary solution, ActiveX, to do what Java did in the first place. Combine this with the fact that Microsoft--again--was able to use their position to place ActiveX support on every desktop for free.

I also don't know enough about CSS to make a statement, but I will take your word for it. Microsoft certainly does have its points of innovation, and CSS may be one of them.

3. They are both free, but we both know there is no such thing as a free lunch. Microsoft makes its money for IE by selling Windows, but Netscape doesn't have that option. Selling stuff below cost to kill off the competition is a very old monopoly tactic, and is defiantly illegal. That is why Microsoft labeled IE as a "Windows upgrade", because as long as it's a part of Windows, and MS makes money on Windows, then it's not illegal to give it away. This became a big point of argument in the anti-trust trial--was IE really an integral part of Windows, or was Microsoft trying to make it look that way to conceal an anti-competitive business practice.

In the end, I am arguing about it because I want any company that can make a good enough product to be able to compete with Microsoft. That may mean things like paying for a browser in the short term, but in the long term having competition pays off for the customer.

Well, here we go.

1. Netscape WAS monopolising the browser market. They have almost all the market share without any competition. Then came IE. The first 2 versions sucked but finally in the 3rd and subsequent versions it starts to impress people. They used to have a lot of market share, they had loyal users, but where'd they go? More importantly, why did they go? They found a better version and therefore they moved to that version. Alright taking into account of the growth of online users and how they effect the market share I don't know. Perhaps I should have some data first. Anyway...

2. Hmmm... I am fuzzy about that Java thing. But if Java is indeed modified and is not the same as Sun's version, then why can IE run EVERY java applet you can find? Certainly either I am wrong here or IE does follow Sun's Java thing.

Besides, without ActiveX, windowsupdate site would not be possible.

3. On how IE was used by Windows to make money, how did Netscape make money?

Boy, my head is toasting.

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Reply to machow

:eek: No, not the ultra-long quote-back tactic!

Well I really must stop posting for the night (night, er, I think it's morning now) and go to sleep, but I will reply tomorrow. That will also give you a chance to answer my second post (the one above), since I guess I jumped the gun a little and went out of turn. :cool:

Cheers,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

1. People started using IE more because it was included in the os while you had to "get" netscape from somewhere. not necessarily because ie was better. Because, until IE5 every netscape product has been far superior to IE. Mozilla will have problems claiming back the marketshare.

2. Sun recently won a case against microsoft regarding Java. I think MS still can include Java as long they don't make any mods to it at all, just like everyone else.

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

Sorry for the long quote, but I have to do that not to show that I have lots to say but because some people don't know where this post originates from...

Anyway I think you have to trash my last post before I can answer you... because you last post was somewhat a repitition of your point anyway. Alright.

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Reply to machow

Post a meaningful message without insulting anyone or just shut the f*ck up!

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

Ummmm... yeah, uh, the topic here is whether Microsoft should be considered a monopoly/uses illegal business practices, etc. This naturally lead into one of the main areas where Microsoft may have broken the law--the browser wars. We are not at all "comparing" NS6 to IE5.5. To read the beginning of this discussion, go to <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq¬found=1&code=1" target="_new">this</A> thread.

Next time, read before you flame, and if you don't understand, just ask.

Regards,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

Let the trashing commence! :wink:

Quote :

1. Netscape WAS monopolising the browser market.

Yes, but only because they produced a superior product. This is not illegal. Using your monopoly position to prevent competition is illegal, but Netscape was not doing this.

Quote :

Then came IE. The first 2 versions sucked but finally in the 3rd and subsequent versions it starts to impress people.

The 3rd version started to get peoples attention, but was not better than Netscape was. Accordingly, it did not win over many users on its own merits.

Quote :

They (Netscape) used to have a lot of market share, they had loyal users, but where'd they go? More importantly, why did they go? They found a better version and therefore they moved to that version.

They found *a* version all right, but not a *better* version. And the reason they "found" it was because Microsoft abused their monopoly position to deliver IE to every PC household and business in America, and they did so at a price (free) specifically intended to run Netscape out of business.

Your #2 point I'll refer to those who know more about the technicalities of it.

Quote :

3. On how IE was used by Windows to make money, how did Netscape make money?

Er, IE was NOT used by Windows to make money--other way around. Microsoft makes money on Windows to pay for the development costs of IE, as IE "sales" are obviously not going to cover it. Netscape made most of its money on, well, Netscape. To compete with Microsoft, Netscape had to start giving its browser away for free. Now where did Netscape get money to develop its browser? I think you see the problem.

If Microsoft wasn't busy trying to kill off Netscape, they would have been happy to charge us $50 or more for IE. Remember Windows Plus? All the things that should have come with Windows in the first place-–but didn't-–Microsoft was happy to sell to you for an additional 60 or so bucks. Microsoft is very good about charging money for everything they can, as is any business. It's when they start giving stuff away that you need to be suspicious.

Now the browser wars certainly don't represent ALL the anti-competitive practices Microsoft uses–but they serve as a good example.

Cheers,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

Ahhh... you have good points that make me somehow convinced me BUT...

1. + 2. If Netscape was having such good reputation and such large user base (hey, wasn't Netscape the only web browser before IE came out? Hmmm...), why wouldn't the old users of Netscape recommend it to the new users? The word of mouth is a very powerful tool to market. Even if get a sample of shampoo (yes it's the shampoo example again) and heard from somewhere else that the shampoo sucks, would you use it? I would right away put it aside and go get a new shampoo from my nearest drug store. Point being, IE's reputation increased, and it's a positive reputation because people use IE even though they heard from everyone that Netscape rules (or whatever).

---- added later ----------
If you say MS used Windows and put IE in it to monopolize the market, is it wrong? People have to download the browser of their choice anyway. MS make it easier to include IE for the user.
-----------------------------------

3. Before I get to this point, I need to know if Netscape Navigator 1.0 was charging anyone money. Regardless to that fact though, many software developers just couldn't make enough not charging anyone money. How did Netscape make money before IE was here? Charging users? If IE was free then it wins because although it sucked the price justifies the performance. If Netscape was not charging anything then how did they make money? Forcing people to go to Netcenter?

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This site is cool.Edited by machow on 04/07/01 04:35 PM.

Reply to machow

Hello again! :smile: Glad to see you are on at your usual late hour. On to business:

1. + 2. The browser wars began just after the "web revolution" if you will--the time period when common household computer users started jumping online. You know the kind of user I am talking about--doesn't know computer RAM from Dodge Ram. Now at first these people had to download their browser choice, but soon Microsoft started including it with Windows, which meant it came pre-installed on their computers. I saw many many Netscape users try to convince these types of people to switch--and almost every time saw that glassed-over look creep into their eyes. You've seen that look--it's the one we computer types get whenever we talk to "regular" people about computers. It turns out this ISN'T shampoo, as everybody is comfortable judging their own shampoo. This is "complicated technical mumbo-jumbo." Bottom line: not very many of them switched.

The old Netscape crowd did last for a long time, but the Netscape market share kept dwindling down, because most of the new user-base was going with IE for the reasons I have listed many times.

The part you added later: Yes it is wrong, or at least illegal. In this country it is against the law to sell something for less that what it costs you to make it, for the purpose of running the competition into the ground. Note that this does not outlaw devising really cheap ways of making a product, so that you can undercut the competition. It only applies to selling it below cost for anti-competitive purposes. Many of these laws date back to near the beginning of last century, and all were made for specific cases of abuse by corporations. Go back and read a little history on what happen's when these laws don't exist–you will probably agree that they are needed.

3. Yes Netscape used to charge for their browser. Sorry, I thought you knew that. This is exactly how they made there money "before IE". After they had to match Microsoft's price, they tried to make money on some other software titles I believe, and I would think they made some on Netcenter too. Their "forcing" everybody to use Netcenter was probably a desperate attempt to improve the traffic-value of their web space--but who knows. I believe that Navigator was what Netscape was founded on and was their principal source of income. Bottom line here? When that income disappeared, it became very hard for them to compete.

Cheers,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

This is the story as I remember it.

The internet has been around for a while. The web is new. There are text based browsers out there like lynx, Netscape releases one of the first (I'm not sure if it was THE first) graphical browsers. Compuserve has its proprietory web like thing, Which AOL later buys and merges it into its own web like thing.

Microsoft thinks the web is unimportant. But, Later chooses to create MSN and Internet Explorer. Netscape, by this time, is doing rather well selling its browser. Microsoft includes facilities to connect to MSN into windows 95. AOL sues and wins to an extent. Result: AOL browser also has to be included into windows. It also includes Internet explorer 3 into windows. Ie3, was ok as a browser, but had severe problems with javascript.

Netscape wasn't too happy about this. They still had more of the user share. problems started to arise, when Ie4 was released. It was designed to integrate itself with windows. Netscape sues. In the midst netscape gets sold to AOL. Netscape production slows. A group of people leave netscape to start the mozilla group (or something).

More people start to use ie4 as it is installed by default with win95 osr2. (They don't bother downloading netscape because of the slow connection speeds, and the amount of time it would take. Remember, Connecting to internet is still expensive.)

Netscape 4, however, remains the preferred browser for most educational institutes. Internet explorer 5 is released. This browser is quite good with a better interface, and more stability. Mac users also get IE5, but with more features.

Netscape 5 project is cancelled and handed to the mozilla group, who decide to include the Gecko engine into the browser. IE5.5 is released for the PC platform with all the new features. Mozilla/Netscape 6 is released.

The netscape followers think the world of netscape 6. The IE followers are in love with IE5.5. And with the clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right. I'm stuck in the middle working my ass off making sure my pages work on both.

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

Damn you guys!

You seem to be always forgetting Opera!
It´s way faster than NS or IE, very much less buggy than those 2 and you don´t need to install those huge files (20 or 30 mb) just to have a crappy browser!

Better burn in Hell with some company than freeze in Heaven all alone

Reply to LordKaos

Thing is while the whole world have free browsers, Opera is still charging users. That's why it is not really noticeable. Besides, with the cable modem, I can hardly notice any speed difference between all those browsers.

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Reply to machow

After 48 hours of thinking I couldn't type a single word out. Seems to be caught. I cannot find anymore points refuting your points. Guess this is the end of the discussion.

But now I am wondering how did Microsoft won the case with Netscape. You guys with familiarity of the browser wars please tell me. I'd like to learn a few tactics from Microsoft too. :smile:

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Reply to machow

Sorry man... I do realize there are several other browsers out there, but I was tired of typing! Actually this whole topic got started over whether Microsoft has done anything illegal, basically. The browser discussion was just to provide examples on Microsoft's behavior. We wern't really talking browsers in general.

I don't know a lot about Opera, though, so anything you wanna say about it would be interesting to me. :cool:

Cheers,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

nutscrape blows! it used to be at least decent but now it's just garbage.

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"All alone in his own little world"

Reply to Grizely1

Why do people hate netscape so much.

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

nothing supports it and its full of bugs and I HATE THE LITTLE STEERING WHEEL THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"All alone in his own little world"

Reply to Grizely1

LoL i'm using netscape 6. My Internet explorer crashes every time i open it and my virus scan had to delete most of the files. Netscape 6 get me to point A to point B

Check out my RIG <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/rcf84/home.html" target="_new">Rcf84's celeron machine</A>

Reply to rcf84

Thats because most people develop just for ie.they dont write for netscape. One of the problems is that they left it too long before releasing this version. The javascript used is microsofts rendition of what ecma maintains. The netscape version of java script is closer to that of ecma.

Netscape 6 also supports more of CSS 2 than ie5.5. in IE they left out simple things like opacity and noncompressed whitespace sections.

Also, for my work I have to parse webpages. About 95% of the pages on the web are erroneous. I'm talking about professionally developed pages. Its just that netscape isn't as tolorent when handeling those pages.

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

I have never had a crash with IE.

Nutscrape f*cks up my computer, takes resources and always crashes. piece of crap

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"All alone in his own little world"

Reply to Grizely1

Somehow I do not like the interface of Netscape. Version 4 looks fragile wihle version 6 looks more like crappy Windows XP 'Luna' skin. I hate them. I like IE's.

I don't particularly hate any browsers, I don't complain about performance and stability of both browsers. But I like IE's sound pack because it makes it more intuitive. Have I clicked on the link? Hmm. It sounded 'tick' so it means I did. Something like that.

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Reply to machow

you can change the skin in mozilla. i'm sure you can download one that looks like ie5.5

"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"

Reply to HolyGrenade

not just the skin, the interface it self. That's another reason why i hate netscape, those gay little buttons that do nothing!

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"All alone in his own little world"

Reply to Grizely1

Opera is available at <A HREF="http://www.operasoft.com" target="_new">http://www.operasoft.com</A> and
it is about 2.24 megs for non JAVA version and 9.74 for the
JAVA version.

it is fast, very compatible (some pages does not display properly
yet) and compatible with most Netscape plug-in.

I like it a lot.

->And this is...................ACTION!

Reply to pat

Cool, thanks! :cool:

Regards,
Warden

Reply to Anonymous

"As of tomorrow, employees will only be able to access the building using individual security cards. Pictures will be taken next Wednesday and employees will receive their cards in two weeks." Microsoft Corporation.

Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?

Reply to Anonymous

Yes !
Go to www.Astalavista.box.sk and you´ll find it!

"I always wanted to be the first" - Pope John Paul II (The second)

Reply to LordKaos

Opera 5.10 is a sponsorized version...if you can live with the
ad banner, it is free. If you can't, then there is a crack or you can
buy it!

->And this is...................ACTION!

Reply to pat

Just for your info, Opera 5.11 is out now with improvement
over the last version.

The new mouse gesture option is very useful and fun to use
to control the browser.

Give it a try...it is only 2.2 megs to download ...

->And this is...................ACTION!

Reply to pat

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