My 9800pro doesnt seem all that...

[Caimbeul]

Just thought I'd get it off my chest. I had the system detailed below with a 64Mb Ti4200 (FW52.16) & a 60Gb seagate barracuda 2mb cache. bought a 120gb wd HDD with 8mb cache and splashed out on a Hercules 128Mb 9800 Pro. now to be perfectly honest there hasnt been a huge increase in visula quality nor FPS (ok a fair increase but nout spectacular) I have also noticed incompatabilities (drivers issues maybe? - but never had these with my NV) eg: Madden 2k3 or 2k4 severe graphical corruption to the point it cannot be played. TR: AOD still runs like sh!t, Master rallye doesnt have dx8.1 water effects like it did on my 4200 (just static blue crap) MOHAA ran smoother in 1280x1024 on my 4200. Im depressed, does it sound like a card issue? or shouldnt i have expected a huge boost in oerformance? I am seriously considering returning it and getting a 5950...what do you people think?

<i>Mmmm Dawn AND Eve at the same time...Drroooooll
-------------------------------------------------
<b>XP2800 Barton, 2x512Mb PC2700, ASUS A7N8X, Hercules 9800Pro 128Mb.

 

[Ion]

1. Did you fully remove previous nvidia driver?
2. Have you try different version of Catalyst?
3. Sometime game patch may fix those issues...

PS. crank up AA/AF to see how bad images were on ti4200. :tongue:

 

[speeduk]

I remember going from a gf3 to a 9700pro. Not much difference at standard settings, but with aa and ani on there was a huge difference.

My system spec: Fast PC<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
"It's not the spoon that bends, it's only yourself."

 

[Caimbeul]

It was a new HDD with a fresh install so no NV drivers to remove. all games fully updated but have not tried any older cats...maybe will do.

Speeduk: I have noticed that with AA/AF etc it doesnt slow it down too much. 3dmark 01 & 03 are giving the so called expected figures. maybe i was just expecting too much from it in game. cheers for your help guys.

<i>Mmmm Dawn AND Eve at the same time...Drroooooll
-------------------------------------------------
<b>XP2800 Barton, 2x512Mb PC2700, ASUS A7N8X, Hercules 9800Pro 128Mb.

 

[TKS]

That just goes to show you how 'optimized' the Nvidia drivers were for game performance.

----------
<b>It is always brave to say what everyone thinks. </b> <i>Georges Duhamel</i>

TKS

 

[russmon]

I went from a GF4-4200 to a 9800np and have had a similar experience. The benchmarks show significant increase in performance but the games don't seem to be that much better. The AA/AF does make a difference in performance but I though this kind of jump in a card would show clear performance gains above the AA/AF.

I am seriously considering returning mine and just going with a 9600 Pro/XT and be happy at 1024x768.

 

[cleeve]

Wait for games like Doom3 and Half Life 2 to see a REAL difference, fellas...

------------------
Radeon 9500 (hardmodded to PRO, o/c to 322/322)
AMD AthlonXP 2400+ (o/c to 2600+ with 143 fsb)
3dMark03: 4055

 

[russmon]

I personally don't agree with the "wait for games" to show video card performance. Come on, a GF4-4200 to a 9800 Pro - this upgrade should show noticable improvement in todays games and not just the LONG awaited HL2 and Doom3. Who even knows when these games are due.

That is why my 9800 is probably going back to the store.

 

[cleeve]

Turn on AA and AF and it DOES show a colossal improvement in todays titles.

If you don't want better image quality, why did you get a new video card in the first place?
The geforce4 Ti series has plenty of juice to play todays titles at decent framerates with no AA or AF.

------------------
Radeon 9500 (hardmodded to PRO, o/c to 322/322)
AMD AthlonXP 2400+ (o/c to 2600+ with 143 fsb)
3dMark03: 4055

 

[russmon]

I agree AA/AF does look tremendous and offers a new level of detail unattainable with the GF4-4200. Turning it on/off in games like KOTOR really make a difference.

Guess I was just looking to see more "DX9 Stuff" with the card.

 

[kinney]

Ditto. I am not overly impressed with mine either.
I have found the cat 3.7s to be the best ones for me also. The 3.8/9 bring in some stability problems in everygame I have.

Its still NV for me. The driver quality is better overall.

Thats not saying that I'd buy one over a ATI these days though.
But I certainly wouldve stuck it out with a GF3/4 until NV got something faster out (not that their new stuff is slow anyway).

But its hard to judge unless you actually go out, buy the card and use it for a couple months.
Problem with that is it costs alot of money.
And the fanboys make it impossible to tell whos really telling the truth about the cards out.

I wouldnt go get a 5950 though, just use a GF4 or 3 until some good DX9 games are actually out and then make another purchase.
Its interesting to see people start to agree with my experiences with the latest ATI.

----
I just tell it like it is and some can't handle it. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.
<b>I’M NOT A ATI FANBOY, I’M NOT A NV FANBOY, I’M A STABILITY FANBOY</b>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The main problem is that you are comparing DX8 games. The GF4ti is one of the best pure DX8 cards out there without AA/AF. Also the artifacts you are seeing in the EA games are well known EA issues thanks to their special nV TWIMTBP features. Check the EA forums I know there is some tweaks you can do with some of them (My experience with my R9600P is limited to NHL 2002 and 2003 and Rugby 2001 and the EA Cricket Demo, I didn't re-install MAdden 'cause I prefer playing it on a friend's PS2)
With games like TombRaider you are getting additional effects that aren't present on the GF4ti cards (and most of the FX cards [without incuring a huge performance hit]) at the same FPS.

The other thing is Resolution, 1280x1024 is the edge of the GF4ti's limit, yet the R3XX line can go to 1600x1200 with less of a penalty, but if you don't use that, then it's not of much use to you.

Depending on the games you are playing, they may also be more CPU/SYSTEM limited/dependant than VPU/GPU limited, in which case an FX5950 would have given you similar results.
There are many instances/benchies that show cards getting 80fps for all cards (up to the R7500) at the same resolution, but crank the resolution beyond 1280x1024 then you see the point at which the GPU starts entering the equation. Take a look at <A HREF="http://firingsquad.com/hardware/call_of_duty_ati/page4.asp" target="_new">THIS</A> review of COD at FiringSquad (using Radeons).
You may be just outside that sweet spot for the games you are playing with your settings, where there is little difference based on the card you use (within reason).

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTUy" target="_new">THIS</A> article may show the differnces in IQ and FPS (of course it in an R9800XT, but I doubt there would be much further diff. there) sometimes it's very little, sometimes it's significant;

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTUy" target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTUy</A>

In the end you may not notice much difference in the short term, you may only see a difference in later titles as was suggested, and then you'd lose our point of reference.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[russmon]

The COD review actually make things more confusing (for me at least). Forgetting AF for a moment, take ATI vs NV for COD @ 1024x768 4xAA:

ATI 9800 Pro: 88.8 ($300)
GFFX 5900 : 120 ($200)

I know COD is designed for NV but this is both frustrating and confusing. Seeing scores like this, although not an all inclusive benchmark, makes me rethink my 9800 purchase sometimes.

In addition, when spending $250+ for a video card, you should definately get that, "Wow - what a difference that makes." I just don't get that feeling even with all the goodies turned on. When I went from my GF2 to GF4, I definately got a bit of the "wow" for much less money.

I for one am absolutely sick of the video card wars.

 

[Caimbeul]

cheers kinny may try the 3.7's. cheers also to GW for the input, by the way what drivers do you use on your system (cats? Omega's? what version?

Russmon: I agree you should definateley get the wow factor, especially considering how much the cards cost nowdays. when i went from my MX220 (i think thats what it was..) to my ti4200 I was very impressed. am fiddling with rage3d tweak at the mo to try and get a bit more out of it + the hercules has copper heatsinks so I am going to see how far I can push it.

Overall though it has actually made me slightly favour nvidia cards, only with regards to the fact that I have always just chucked them into a machine and viola! they all work without a problem. You pay all this money for a card and you would expect it to actually display the correct images in games. oh well you live and learn.

It IS a good card dont get me wrong just not as "Wow" as is expected.

also if anyone else here has downloaded the Deus Ex2 demo, please let me know what kind of FPS you are getting with what card with default settings @ 1024x768 (if anyone can be bothered of course lol

thanks again guys



<i>Mmmm Dawn AND Eve at the same time...Drroooooll
-------------------------------------------------
<b>XP2800 Barton, 2x512Mb PC2700, ASUS A7N8X, Hercules 9800Pro 128Mb.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Also compare the FX5700U under those same settings (<A HREF="http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/call_of_duty_nvidia/page2.asp" target="_new">in the nV part II section of course</A>);

FX5700U (~$260US):133.7 fps
FX5950U (~$450US):135 fps

Go to 800x600 and then it's in favour of the FX5700 140.7 vs 136.2 for the FX5950.

Also watch how the GF4ti 4600 migrates from just above the FX5900 to significantly below it.

It's a question of cross over. At lower res it's different aspects that are obviously taking over.

The thing is that COD while new, and while stressing (somewhat) is still a Q3 engine with very few modern features.

It's like Buying a Lamborghini Countach for city street driving. IT's 0-60 can be beaten by a DODGE NEON RT and since you can't exceed 65-70mph (legally) then what's the point. That extra 50-60mph top speed is wasted. It's the same with the graphics cards. Until you get games that play to their strengths, there will be little difference.

BTW, if it weren't for the Video Card wars we all still be running 32mb cards that are the minimum requirement of the industry. You can either be paying $400 for a GF3 with 64mb or for an FX5900U with 256mb. I'd prefer getting the most for my money. And without ATI to drive nV and vice versa we'd all be stuck with what they force-feed us.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

cheers also to GW for the input, by the way what drivers do you use on your system (cats? Omega's? what version?

Is that directed at me? I did't see GW's input above (did he PM you?), also he doesn't run a Radeon anymore he now runs the GF4ti which he does seem to enjoy.

In case you were asking me, although that just may be my ego , I'm currently running the DNA drivers (based on CAT 3.9) since it's the last one that I installed while doing the Catalyst comparison, and I have had no issues as of yet.

Rage3D tweak does give you some boost, if you look at the Catalyst comparison thread I posted a link to a review that adds Rage3Dtweak to the regular CATs and to the Omegas and shows the diff. (unfortunately no screenies for the diff.).


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[russmon]

Good analogy about the cars! I guess I feel like the Lamborghini owner right now stuck in the city while the Neon drivers laughing at me saying, "Why does he need the Lambo in the city - to be me to the next red light?"

After working on this thread, I also tried some games last night with and without AA/AF. Although these are not DX9 features, they make a tremendous difference in on screen quality to a point that turning off AA wasn't an option. You see a tremendous difference in quality and I am sure a "lessor" ATI Radeon like the 9600 Pro or XT would suffer signifance performance compared to the 9800.

I guess having a higher priced video car right now is like sitting in the drivers seat of the Lambo over the Neon. The seats are more comfortable (AA), the stereo is better, and I can probably get more chicks (LAN Parties). And one day, when I make it to the open road, I can feel confident I can blow the Neon away. Although the Neon owner probably has a nicer house after saving his cash on a car

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I am sure a "lessor" ATI Radeon like the 9600 Pro or XT would suffer

Hey no taking pokes at my card, I'm trying to help.

*sniff*

The R9600PRO RULES! (It's the TVR of the Graphics card World!)

Yeah, you will feel like you aren't getting much performance above the GF4ti right now except in the AA/AF situation. But rest assured the speed limit will be raised and the differences between the two cards will become more apparent with time. The only question (unanswerable) is how you will feel in 4+ months time when the R42X/NV40 come out.

But if you felt like the fullness of your resources aren't being exploited now, I can only imagine what it will be like for initial R42X/NV40 owners. Yipee I get 500+ FPS in Quake 3 Whoop-dee-doo!

The thing about the graphics cards, is while someone who owns a GF4 may have more money to spend on a CPU/system/etc. it likely won't offer as much return on investment as that simple bump to those good DX9 cards where you CAN turn on the additonal features. In many cases the efficieny of the pixel shaders will also show greater performance promise in the future. Sure the GF4 owner might dow better in Q3/3Dmk01 with that P4 3.4 ghz CPU, but the AMD2500+ owner with the R3XX/FX5900 card will likely play the newer titles with much better results.

Don;t worry, you may have come around to being satisfied/happy again, don't worry there will likely be something to wipe the smile off your face. It's just the nature of the industry it seems. :frown:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[russmon]

Didn't mean to poke fun - the 9600Pro is a good card.

Pardon my ignorance (or laziness I should say) but what do you mean by R42X/NV40?

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

No problem.

The R420/423 (don't know which is which yet, although the current view is R420=AGP and R423=PCI-EX) is the replacement for the R9800 line of cards (R350= 9800 / R360= R9800XT). The NV40 is the replacement for the FX5950 aka NV38. Theses are next generation cards whose features are not fully known, but widely speculated upon. PS3.0/VS3.0 (pixel/vertex shaders) is on supposed aspect of these cards. Many more pixel pipelines is another aspect, either 6X2 or 8x2 is likely for the NV40, and 12x1 or potentially 16x1 for the R42X, or perhaps a similar ?x2 setup. However I haven't seen any hard figures yet on any of them. Just articles like <A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030911145704.html" target="_new">THIS One</A>.

Rumours of 1600mhz of memory on both cards seems almost a given based on mock-up boards, and related announcements.

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030925033540.html" target="_new">ATI 'VIPER' (R420?) using Micron memory</A>
<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030918134855.html" target="_new">nV 40 taped out using Samsung memory</A>

So that's what you can expect. And by that time you will likely feel very dissapointed in whatever you have if you're worried about bungholio marks, and those cards just with their specs clocked at the same speed as current cards should create a pretty big guld in performance, which will likely be 'chasmic' between the GF4 series and those cards. But then again it might only show up as a small gap once again for most older games where the rest of the system just can't keep up. It will be very 'fun' to see those first benchmarks. I expect to see some interesting differences based on the diverging pathes for these two companies (strength in one gaming type and the other equal strength in another area).
Also, you should know that after the R42X and NV40 are the R450 and NV45 and then the R500 and NV50 (names subject to change like the R400). So there is no end to all this.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[russmon]

Great info thanks.

So this means:

1. Cards based on these architectures will cost as much as a current 9600 Pro
2. Halo PC will finally perform like it does on the XBOX
3. The cost to build a new PC with all of these new feature will equal the cost of a new Neon
4. It will not stop console games from poisoning PC games
5. An ATI 9500/9700/9800 (even a 9600 Pro) is a good investment

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Just in regard to the first item. The R420/423 and NV40 will likely be a slight premium ABOVE the current FX5950/R9800 cards. Think of 10-20% which does seem like a fairly big figure on paper (like $700CDN) but considering that it will likely be a leap in performance above that 10% (in the long run, not necessarily in Q3 and such) then it becomes an attractive option for those of us with monitors that can support high resolution and high refresh rate.

The Replacement for the R9600XT/RV360 is the RV380, whose supposed power is equal to that of the R9800/R9800Pro. IT's pricing will likley be more variable and tricky than it more powerful sibling. It will also depend on what pro/non-pro/xt/xl/se/tx/GT/SSE/EFI/GTO/MFI/300ZX models they have coming out to fill the gaps.
I'm still wondering whether the RV380 will have ANY of the PS3/VS3 features of it's bigger brother. Once again we'll just have to wait and see.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <b>RED GREEN</b> GA to SK

<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/" target="_new">-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-</A>

 

[Guest]

Captain Obvious agrees!

Ansio and AA have finally matured as something useful now.
Its just speed and eventually DirectX 10 that will be worked upon.

<b><font color=red>Captain Obvious To The Rescue!!!
Captain Obvious: Pointing out the Obvious and not so Obvious!</font color=red></b>

 

[Caimbeul]

Sorry GreatGrapeApe, hadnt had much shut-eye at the point of writing that. But may have to look int those drivers. DNA's you say? being a new ATI owner, cant say I have heard of them...

...Good analogy with the cars by the way.

<i>Mmmm Dawn AND Eve at the same time...Drroooooll
-------------------------------------------------
<b>XP2800 Barton, 2x512Mb PC2700, ASUS A7N8X, Hercules 9800Pro 128Mb.