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Very disappointed and shocked by the new Yanoff

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Anonymous
August 7, 2005 3:33:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other people.

First of all, let me say that I'll talk here about the "new" Yanoff, and
not the free, GPL version. Second, I loaded the so-called Yanoff-, as
opposed to the costly Yanoff+ with more features.

About the cost, 24USD (that's twenty-four, it's not a typo) is
ambitious, to say the least. I mean, even iSilo (one of the best readers
available IMHO) costs less! For just 5 bucks more, you can get DocsToGo
standard edition, and I think we all agree that DocsToGo does much more
than Yanoff will ever do. In my opinion, Yanoff+ should cost between 10
and 12 USD maximum.

About the functionalities, let's start by saying that Yanoff- simply
doesn't work on my LifeDrive. Yes, I could load messages from a
newsgroup, but I am unable to read them entirely, because I cannot
scroll down! I never saw before a program where simply scrolling down
was impossible (it seems like a pretty basic feature). So to start with
(and YMMV of course), the application can't be used.

Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages
over hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
being able to load newsgroups too.

Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
through the window.

Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the future,
the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default signature for
the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I simply couldn't
believe it (small pause to release the bad emotions here... deep
breath...). It means that if you don't change the default signature (and
this is not very straightforward), every time you send a message, you'll
also send a citation of the bible *in your own name*!!

I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of this
kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own path
now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
others. Moreover, acting this way lets others knowing me believe that I
got back to the christian religion, without me being aware of it. This
is a shame.

I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
available (and still now one of the only ones usable). When the author
contacted me quite some time ago to ask me if I would support his new
development, I was quite enthusiastic about it, and was even ready to
pay something to help him. Then I lost interest because surfing over
GPRS is not the most comfortable experience. Having a LD now, I thought
I would enjoy using Yanoff. Well, now I am really glad that I tried it
before paying.

Greetings,
Laurent

[posted to comp.sys.palmtops.pilot]
[posted to comp.sys.palmtops]
[posted to www.1src.com]
[posted to www.clieuk.co.uk]
[emailed to testimonials@PalmYanoff.com]
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 7:08:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Laurent Bugnion wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
> very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
> do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
> need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other people.

My experience is solely with the "old" GPL version, version 1.5. It
works fine as a reader, but when I "upgraded" I lost the ability to post
mail (not sure it's not my config settings).

I, too, installed the "new" Yanoff trial version, but went back to the
GPL because of those silly "register" buttons. I have no idea what the
functionality might be that I'd pay for & even a pop-up "this function
disabled" warning would be better than those buttons.

I also agree about the price.

> Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages
> over hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
> doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
> over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
> the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
> being able to load newsgroups too.

I get my news via Bluetooth & a dongle, so this doesn't apply. I used to
use the conduit on Win98 & kept it disabled most of the time anyway,
since I just get news once a day .

However, if the author wants to put "religious testimony" in the
software, that's his business. The "sig", however, probably isn't the
place. The "about" splash screen would be more appropriate, IMO.

Now, to go play with that config setting a while...


Joe
--
"Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray."
- Bob Dylan
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 12:32:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:33:41 +0200, Laurent Bugnion wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
> very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
> do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
> need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other
> people.

You might be interested in my review from several months ago:

http://code.gnu-designs.com/yanoff_review/

> I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
> GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
> available (and still now one of the only ones usable).

It can easily be forked to contain or remove any features you wish, and
you can continue to call it "Yanoff" (though not Yanoff- or Yanoff+, of
course) under the terms of the GPL.

I'm pretty surprised nobody has taken on the task...

But then again, I use Plucker to read usenet now. I simply convert the
newsgroup to an rss feed with some perl glue, then point Plucker at that,
and away we go.

It wouldn't be that difficult for others to create the same sort of
process with most any other reader.
Related resources
August 8, 2005 5:06:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Harold wrote:
> "Laurent Bugnion" <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:42f5d577$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
> > very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
> > do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
> > need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other people.
> >
> > First of all, let me say that I'll talk here about the "new" Yanoff, and
> > not the free, GPL version. Second, I loaded the so-called Yanoff-, as
> > opposed to the costly Yanoff+ with more features.
> >
> > About the cost, 24USD (that's twenty-four, it's not a typo) is ambitious,
> > to say the least. I mean, even iSilo (one of the best readers available
> > IMHO) costs less! For just 5 bucks more, you can get DocsToGo standard
> > edition, and I think we all agree that DocsToGo does much more than Yanoff
> > will ever do. In my opinion, Yanoff+ should cost between 10 and 12 USD
> > maximum.
> >
> > About the functionalities, let's start by saying that Yanoff- simply
> > doesn't work on my LifeDrive. Yes, I could load messages from a newsgroup,
> > but I am unable to read them entirely, because I cannot scroll down! I
> > never saw before a program where simply scrolling down was impossible (it
> > seems like a pretty basic feature). So to start with (and YMMV of course),
> > the application can't be used.
> >
> > Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages over
> > hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
> > doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
> > over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
> > the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
> > being able to load newsgroups too.
> >
> > Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
> > much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
> > even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
> > replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
> > likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
> > moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
> > through the window.
> >
> > Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the future,
> > the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default signature for
> > the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I simply couldn't believe
> > it (small pause to release the bad emotions here... deep breath...). It
> > means that if you don't change the default signature (and this is not very
> > straightforward), every time you send a message, you'll also send a
> > citation of the bible *in your own name*!!
> >
> > I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of this
> > kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own path now,
> > and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on others.
> > Moreover, acting this way lets others knowing me believe that I got back
> > to the christian religion, without me being aware of it. This is a shame.
> >
> > I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
> > GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
> > available (and still now one of the only ones usable). When the author
> > contacted me quite some time ago to ask me if I would support his new
> > development, I was quite enthusiastic about it, and was even ready to pay
> > something to help him. Then I lost interest because surfing over GPRS is
> > not the most comfortable experience. Having a LD now, I thought I would
> > enjoy using Yanoff. Well, now I am really glad that I tried it before
> > paying.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Laurent
> >
> > [posted to comp.sys.palmtops.pilot]
> > [posted to comp.sys.palmtops]
> > [posted to www.1src.com]
> > [posted to www.clieuk.co.uk]
> > [emailed to testimonials@PalmYanoff.com]
>
> Is it actually legal to "fork" GPL code and sell the result? I have serious
> doubts.
>
>
> --
> Harold Fuchs
> Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
> -- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland

I retract my previous post. It is OK to sell code based on the GPL
*provided* you make the source code available on demand.

Here is a direct quote from the GPL FAQ page at
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html
====== start of quote =====
Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies
is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special
situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one
exception is the required written offer to provide source code that
must accompany binary-only release.)
===== end of quote ====

Presumably Yanoff complies with this ???

Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 5:58:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On 2005-08-08, David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:

> But then again, I use Plucker to read usenet now. I simply convert the
> newsgroup to an rss feed with some perl glue, then point Plucker at that,
> and away we go.

How do you follow up?
--
Carl Fink carl@fink.to
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 5:58:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In message <slrndfdf1v.g6n.carlf@panix2.panix.com> Carl Fink
<carlf@panix.com> wrote:

>On 2005-08-08, David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:
>
>> But then again, I use Plucker to read usenet now. I simply convert the
>> newsgroup to an rss feed with some perl glue, then point Plucker at that,
>> and away we go.
>
>How do you follow up?

It's worth noting that many people only read and never post. I'm
obviously not one of them, and I have trouble imaging the same, but a
significant percentage of NNTP accounts (on commercial servers) are used
for reading but not writing.

--
'Outlook not so good.'
That magic 8-ball knows everything!
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 7:20:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Laurent Bugnion wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
> very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
> do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
> need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other people.


Before I start, I must clarify that I have no hands-on experience with
Yanoff, but I have kept track of the project for quite some time. The
following brought me up-to-date:

http://code.gnu-designs.com/yanoff_review/


> First of all, let me say that I'll talk here about the "new" Yanoff, and
> not the free, GPL version. Second, I loaded the so-called Yanoff-, as
> opposed to the costly Yanoff+ with more features.

> About the cost, 24USD (that's twenty-four, it's not a typo) is
> ambitious, to say the least. I mean, even iSilo (one of the best readers
> available IMHO) costs less! For just 5 bucks more, you can get DocsToGo
> standard edition, and I think we all agree that DocsToGo does much more
> than Yanoff will ever do. In my opinion, Yanoff+ should cost between 10
> and 12 USD maximum.


I know of many applications that cost around $24. You unfairly used
inexpensive applications as examples.


> About the functionalities, let's start by saying that Yanoff- simply
> doesn't work on my LifeDrive. Yes, I could load messages from a
> newsgroup, but I am unable to read them entirely, because I cannot
> scroll down! I never saw before a program where simply scrolling down
> was impossible (it seems like a pretty basic feature). So to start with
> (and YMMV of course), the application can't be used.


The application was not tested under the LifeDrive. I corresponded with the
developer before the LifeDrive was even out in the shops. In his defence,
it isn't guaranteed to work on the LD. If it did, great, but if not, I am
sure you would have gotten a refund.


> Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages
> over hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
> doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
> over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
> the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
> being able to load newsgroups too.


I think it is again a case of keeping up with the changes over at
PalmSource. Sure it would be nice if more dynamic maintenance was in place,
but nothing was promised.


> Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
> much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
> even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
> replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
> likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
> moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
> through the window.


If you use a free version, I don't think you have the right to complain
about this particular aspect. One of the reasons why I left Windows was all
of the shareware applications that involved nags. With Linux I get GPL'd
application that /serve/ me rather than asking me for money.


> Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the future,
> the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default signature for
> the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I simply couldn't
> believe it (small pause to release the bad emotions here... deep
> breath...). It means that if you don't change the default signature (and
> this is not very straightforward), every time you send a message, you'll
> also send a citation of the bible *in your own name*!!
>
> I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of this
> kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own path
> now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
> others. Moreover, acting this way lets others knowing me believe that I
> got back to the christian religion, without me being aware of it. This
> is a shame.


I don't think any harm or offence was originally intended, but religion is a
sensitive issue. I think assigning these default signatures was a poor
decision. On-line mail accounts like Yahoo and MSN take a similar approach,
but they use advertising and not controversial words that involve politics
and religion.


> I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
> GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
> available (and still now one of the only ones usable). When the author
> contacted me quite some time ago to ask me if I would support his new
> development, I was quite enthusiastic about it, and was even ready to
> pay something to help him. Then I lost interest because surfing over
> GPRS is not the most comfortable experience. Having a LD now, I thought
> I would enjoy using Yanoff. Well, now I am really glad that I tried it
> before paying.


That's what trial versions are for.


Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz
http://Schestowitz.com
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 10:51:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote:

>Laurent Bugnion wrote:

>> Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
>> much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
>> even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
>> replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
>> likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
>> moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
>> through the window.
>
>
>If you use a free version, I don't think you have the right to complain
>about this particular aspect.

Cmon Roy, he has a *right* to complain about anything he wants. This is Usenet
after all. Just as you seem to want to use your *right* to complain about his
rights... ;) 

But really I appreciate his honest review. It certainly beats those so called
reviews on many of the Palm sites that are really camouflaged ads. "Oh I just
happened to be over at ebook this morning and saw this neat book about...".

I had considered trying the updated Yanoff product. But I too hate those
annoying reminders. So the review saved me the trouble of loading up the trial.
The author certainly has other less obnoxious ways to protect himself such as
using a time limit. But of course he has a *right* to do it any way he wants,
and the market will decide. That's the *right* way... ;) 
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 12:42:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Laurent Bugnion <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the
> future, the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default
> signature for the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I
> simply couldn't believe it (small pause to release the bad emotions
> here... deep breath...). It means that if you don't change the
> default signature (and this is not very straightforward), every time
> you send a message, you'll also send a citation of the bible *in your
> own name*!!
>
> I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of
> this kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own
> path
> now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
> others.

Yes, it is disgraceful. The religious angle is also why I have ignored
the author's email offer of a free license to have me test it.

I use SSH to connect from my UX-50 to a server, and read Usenet there.
It works well, but with the drawback that I have to be online. But
there's no sacrificing of sons involved, which more than weighs up for
the inconvenience.

Regards,
--
*Art
August 8, 2005 12:44:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Laurent Bugnion" <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:42f5d577$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> Hi,
>
> I downloaded the new Yanoff yesterday and tried it on my LifeDrive. I am
> very disappointed by it, and even shocked by one of the "features". I'll
> do my best to keep this post emotion-free, but it's not easy. I feel the
> need to report about this, to avoid the same bad emotions to other people.
>
> First of all, let me say that I'll talk here about the "new" Yanoff, and
> not the free, GPL version. Second, I loaded the so-called Yanoff-, as
> opposed to the costly Yanoff+ with more features.
>
> About the cost, 24USD (that's twenty-four, it's not a typo) is ambitious,
> to say the least. I mean, even iSilo (one of the best readers available
> IMHO) costs less! For just 5 bucks more, you can get DocsToGo standard
> edition, and I think we all agree that DocsToGo does much more than Yanoff
> will ever do. In my opinion, Yanoff+ should cost between 10 and 12 USD
> maximum.
>
> About the functionalities, let's start by saying that Yanoff- simply
> doesn't work on my LifeDrive. Yes, I could load messages from a newsgroup,
> but I am unable to read them entirely, because I cannot scroll down! I
> never saw before a program where simply scrolling down was impossible (it
> seems like a pretty basic feature). So to start with (and YMMV of course),
> the application can't be used.
>
> Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages over
> hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
> doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
> over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
> the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
> being able to load newsgroups too.
>
> Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
> much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
> even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
> replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
> likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
> moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
> through the window.
>
> Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the future,
> the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default signature for
> the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I simply couldn't believe
> it (small pause to release the bad emotions here... deep breath...). It
> means that if you don't change the default signature (and this is not very
> straightforward), every time you send a message, you'll also send a
> citation of the bible *in your own name*!!
>
> I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of this
> kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own path now,
> and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on others.
> Moreover, acting this way lets others knowing me believe that I got back
> to the christian religion, without me being aware of it. This is a shame.
>
> I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
> GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
> available (and still now one of the only ones usable). When the author
> contacted me quite some time ago to ask me if I would support his new
> development, I was quite enthusiastic about it, and was even ready to pay
> something to help him. Then I lost interest because surfing over GPRS is
> not the most comfortable experience. Having a LD now, I thought I would
> enjoy using Yanoff. Well, now I am really glad that I tried it before
> paying.
>
> Greetings,
> Laurent
>
> [posted to comp.sys.palmtops.pilot]
> [posted to comp.sys.palmtops]
> [posted to www.1src.com]
> [posted to www.clieuk.co.uk]
> [emailed to testimonials@PalmYanoff.com]

Is it actually legal to "fork" GPL code and sell the result? I have serious
doubts.


--
Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 12:48:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:
>
> It can easily be forked to contain or remove any features you wish,
> and you can continue to call it "Yanoff" (though not Yanoff- or
> Yanoff+, of course) under the terms of the GPL.

Why not Yanoff- or Yanoff+? It would cause confusion and I wouldn't
recommend it, but I don't see anything in the GPL that prevents you from
using the same name. Y++ would be a good name :-)

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 12:53:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

djeaux wrote:

<strip>

> However, if the author wants to put "religious testimony" in the
> software, that's his business. The "sig", however, probably isn't the
> place. The "about" splash screen would be more appropriate, IMO.

I would probably avoid buying a software displaying religious testimony
in the splash screen, but I wouldn't be shocked by it. What shocked me
here is the fact that, if I don't change the settings, some religious
data will be added to my signature without my knowledge.

>
> Now, to go play with that config setting a while...
>
>
> Joe

On another note, it seems impossible to download Yanoff GPL from the
ourceforge website. Could you email me the files?

Thanks,
Laurent
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 12:56:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

David A. Desrosiers wrote:

> You might be interested in my review from several months ago:
>
> http://code.gnu-designs.com/yanoff_review/

I had read that, and decided to give it a shot anyway.

<snip>

> But then again, I use Plucker to read usenet now. I simply convert the
> newsgroup to an rss feed with some perl glue, then point Plucker at that,
> and away we go.
>
> It wouldn't be that difficult for others to create the same sort of
> process with most any other reader.

Plucker, while it's probably a great offline reader (I use iSilo myself,
fell in love with the software before Plucker was even thought of, and I
have a license for ages ;-), is not useful to me, because I also want to
load news through my WiFi connection at home, without having to start my PC.

Thanks for the tips anyway.
Laurent
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 1:09:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
> I know of many applications that cost around $24. You unfairly used
> inexpensive applications as examples.

I really don't think that DocsToGo or iSilo qualify as unexpensive.
They're very expensive for my standards, at least for PDA applications.
However, I agreed to pay for them because they are really full of features.

>>About the functionalities, let's start by saying that Yanoff- simply
>>doesn't work on my LifeDrive. Yes, I could load messages from a
>>newsgroup, but I am unable to read them entirely, because I cannot
>>scroll down! I never saw before a program where simply scrolling down
>>was impossible (it seems like a pretty basic feature). So to start with
>>(and YMMV of course), the application can't be used.
>
>
>
> The application was not tested under the LifeDrive. I corresponded with the
> developer before the LifeDrive was even out in the shops. In his defence,
> it isn't guaranteed to work on the LD. If it did, great, but if not, I am
> sure you would have gotten a refund.

There is no mention of this on the website. It's totally OK that it
doesn't work on the LD, it's a fairly new device. This paragraph was not
meant as an attack against the developer, rather a "buyers beware" for
other users.


>>Another thing which bums me is that there is no way to load messages
>>over hotsync. The old Java conduit hasn't been updated, and anyway JSync
>>doesn't work with the newer generation of Palm desktop. Loading messages
>>over hotsync is very handy in my office, where I cannot connect my LD to
>>the network directly. I load my Versamail this way, and it would be nice
>>being able to load newsgroups too.
>
>
>
> I think it is again a case of keeping up with the changes over at
> PalmSource. Sure it would be nice if more dynamic maintenance was in place,
> but nothing was promised.

My point is that for 24 USD, a working conduit can be expected.


>>Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
>>much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
>>even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
>>replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
>>likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
>>moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
>>through the window.
>
> If you use a free version, I don't think you have the right to complain
> about this particular aspect. One of the reasons why I left Windows was all
> of the shareware applications that involved nags. With Linux I get GPL'd
> application that /serve/ me rather than asking me for money.

Actually, I have the right to complain about everything, this is Usenet ;-)

Seriously, and once again, this post (apart from the religious paragraph
under) is not gratuitous ranting, it's much more an attempt to
communicate about what I disliked in this software, to avoid the bad
experience to others. The buttons really bummed me, it's simply not
professional UI design (I am software developer, BTW, though I don't
develop for the Palm). Call me maniac, but it was really a painful
experience.

>>Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the future,
>>the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default signature for
>>the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I simply couldn't
>>believe it (small pause to release the bad emotions here... deep
>>breath...). It means that if you don't change the default signature (and
>>this is not very straightforward), every time you send a message, you'll
>>also send a citation of the bible *in your own name*!!
>>
>>I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of this
>>kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own path
>>now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
>>others. Moreover, acting this way lets others knowing me believe that I
>>got back to the christian religion, without me being aware of it. This
>>is a shame.
>
> I don't think any harm or offence was originally intended, but religion is a
> sensitive issue. I think assigning these default signatures was a poor
> decision. On-line mail accounts like Yahoo and MSN take a similar approach,
> but they use advertising and not controversial words that involve politics
> and religion.

I am against proselytism by principle, and I fight against it every time
I see it. It doesn't matter if it's intended or by mistake.

>>I sincerely regret this. It sounded like a good idea to continue Yanoff
>>GPL's development, seeing how it was for a long time the only newsreader
>>available (and still now one of the only ones usable). When the author
>>contacted me quite some time ago to ask me if I would support his new
>>development, I was quite enthusiastic about it, and was even ready to
>>pay something to help him. Then I lost interest because surfing over
>>GPRS is not the most comfortable experience. Having a LD now, I thought
>>I would enjoy using Yanoff. Well, now I am really glad that I tried it
>>before paying.
>
> That's what trial versions are for.
>
>
> Roy

A shame, though, that trying this version made me spend such a terrible
time.

Thanks for your reply!
Laurent
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 4:02:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:58:23 +0000, Carl Fink wrote:

> How do you follow up?

By knowing which groups and posts I want to reply to with 'pan' when I
get back home to a machine that I can write a proper response. Scribing a
multiple-sentence reply on a Palm is the most painful process ever. I
would never even attempt it.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 4:05:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:44:08 +0100, Harold wrote:

> Is it actually legal to "fork" GPL code and sell the result? I have
> serious doubts.

Yes, 100% legal and the license encourages it.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 5:24:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:53:53 +0200, Laurent Bugnion wrote:

> I would probably avoid buying a software displaying religious testimony in
> the splash screen, but I wouldn't be shocked by it. What shocked me here
> is the fact that, if I don't change the settings, some religious data will
> be added to my signature without my knowledge.

And the sad thing is that a simple on-first-launch setup "wizard"
(like hundreds of other apps have) would have solved this problem and
removed the need for most of the arguments about "broken" or bad defaults.

But we're all wrong for thinking it, so I digress.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 6:07:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

David A. Desrosiers wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:53:53 +0200, Laurent Bugnion wrote:
>
> And the sad thing is that a simple on-first-launch setup "wizard"
> (like hundreds of other apps have) would have solved this problem and
> removed the need for most of the arguments about "broken" or bad defaults.

You have not yet seen 3.1! :>

> But we're all wrong for thinking it, so I digress.

This was anywhere implied in what the OP said.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 6:08:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Laurent Bugnion a écrit, le 08/08/2005 09:09 :

> I really don't think that DocsToGo or iSilo qualify as unexpensive.
> They're very expensive for my standards, at least for PDA applications.
> However, I agreed to pay for them because they are really full of features.

They *are* unexpensive compared to the amount of work needed to develop
them. Because, like you, a lot of people buy them. And they are bundled.

But the potential market share of Yanoff is much much smaller... So, the
developer has to compensate the low volume by a bigger price.

--

Internet, newsgroups, e-mail => Netiquette
http://usenet-fr.news.eu.org/fr.usenet.reponses/usenet/...
news:fr.bienvenue news:fr.bienvenue.questions
news:news.announce.newusers news:fr.usenet.reponses
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 6:09:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

David A. Desrosiers wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:53:53 +0200, Laurent Bugnion wrote:
>
> And the sad thing is that a simple on-first-launch setup "wizard"
> (like hundreds of other apps have) would have solved this problem and
> removed the need for most of the arguments about "broken" or bad defaults.

You have not yet seen 3.1! :>

> But we're all wrong for thinking it, so I digress.

This was anywhere implied in what the OP said.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 6:28:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

AaronJ wrote:

> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote:
>
>>Laurent Bugnion wrote:
>
>>> Finally, the "minus" version of Yanoff is infested with reminder of how
>>> much better the "plus" version is. Some of these annoying reminders are
>>> even presented under the form of a pop-up. Some buttons have their text
>>> replaced by something like "Register" "to get" "this feature" and the
>>> likes. I mean, it's funny (not) the first time you see it, but after a
>>> moment, it gets really annoying and makes you want to throw your PDA
>>> through the window.
>>
>>
>>If you use a free version, I don't think you have the right to complain
>>about this particular aspect.
>
> Cmon Roy, he has a *right* to complain about anything he wants. This is
> Usenet after all. Just as you seem to want to use your *right* to complain
> about his rights... ;) 


Being relatively impartial, I was trying to defend the product as well as
defend the right to implement "nags" (that's why I said "this particular
aspect"). I imagine that the developer, who probably watches over this
thread (I notified him), would have come up with a similar argument.


> But really I appreciate his honest review. It certainly beats those so
> called reviews on many of the Palm sites that are really camouflaged ads.
> "Oh I just happened to be over at ebook this morning and saw this neat
> book about...".


Yes, I know what you mean. More unfortunately, such sites have hit Google
News, which makes it really obnoxious.


> I had considered trying the updated Yanoff product. But I too hate those
> annoying reminders. So the review saved me the trouble of loading up the
> trial. The author certainly has other less obnoxious ways to protect
> himself such as using a time limit. But of course he has a *right* to do
> it any way he wants, and the market will decide. That's the *right* way...
> ;) 


Agreed. Exactly my point...

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz
http://Schestowitz.com
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 7:29:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 Gregg Woodcock <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:
> "Laurent Bugnion" <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
>
>> I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on others.

> Are you shocked when dogs bark or fish swim?

hey, I'm freaked out when a rabid dog barks at me, or when a shark is
swimming by me. Does that make me a bad Christian?


--

"I hear ma train a comin'
.... hear freedom comin"
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 8:23:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

Patrick Vuichard wrote:
> Laurent Bugnion a écrit, le 08/08/2005 09:09 :
>
>> I really don't think that DocsToGo or iSilo qualify as unexpensive.
>> They're very expensive for my standards, at least for PDA
>> applications. However, I agreed to pay for them because they are
>> really full of features.
>
>
> They *are* unexpensive compared to the amount of work needed to develop
> them. Because, like you, a lot of people buy them. And they are bundled.
>
> But the potential market share of Yanoff is much much smaller... So, the
> developer has to compensate the low volume by a bigger price.

It doesn't work this way. There is a subtle limit to a software's price
(moreover a PDA software) where people stop buying. Once again, for a
software having Yanoff's functionalities, I believe that the limit is
rather around 12 USD than 24 USD.

That said, I highly doubt that "New Yanoff"'s developer can make a
living out of the copies sold, whatever the price. All independant
developers I know report how difficult it is to get money out of any PDA
software. Sinking the price around the 12 USD limit would probably help.
It would be interesting to know the number of applications sold, and if
it was enough to earn money out of it. Maybe Mr Woodcock can comment.

Laurent
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 8:25:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Laurent Bugnion <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>>Finally, and this is why I will avoid using this software in the
>>future, the author uses it for christian proselytism. The default
>>signature for the sent messages bears a citation of the bible! I
>>simply couldn't believe it (small pause to release the bad emotions
>>here... deep breath...). It means that if you don't change the
>>default signature (and this is not very straightforward), every time
>>you send a message, you'll also send a citation of the bible *in your
>>own name*!!
>>
>>I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of
>>this kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own
>>path
>>now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
>>others.
>
>
> Yes, it is disgraceful. The religious angle is also why I have ignored
> the author's email offer of a free license to have me test it.
>
> I use SSH to connect from my UX-50 to a server, and read Usenet there.
> It works well, but with the drawback that I have to be online. But
> there's no sacrificing of sons involved, which more than weighs up for
> the inconvenience.
>
> Regards,

Thanks for the tip, I'll look SSH up.

I have only daughters, so the sacrifice thing might be a problem for me
too ;-)

Laurent
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 11:03:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Laurent Bugnion a écrit, le 08/08/2005 16:23 :

>> the developer has to compensate the low volume by a bigger price.
>
> It doesn't work this way.

Of course...

> There is a subtle limit to a software's price

And this limit depends on the customer profile. Someone willing to use a
newsreader on a Palm OS device is probably a geek, and his price limit
for what he considers as a "must have" is higher than the average
customer that wants a game.

> That said, I highly doubt that "New Yanoff"'s developer can make a
> living out of the copies sold, whatever the price. All independant
> developers I know report how difficult it is to get money out of any PDA
> software.

Yep.

--

Internet, newsgroups, e-mail => Netiquette
http://usenet-fr.news.eu.org/fr.usenet.reponses/usenet/...
news:fr.bienvenue news:fr.bienvenue.questions
news:news.announce.newusers news:fr.usenet.reponses
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 11:08:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:44:08 +0100, Harold wrote:
>
>> Is it actually legal to "fork" GPL code and sell the result? I have
>> serious doubts.
>
> Yes, 100% legal and the license encourages it.

As long as the forked code is *also* made freely available and includes
all GPL licenses, yes. If not, the developer will have to go back to
the original authors and get a copy from them under a different non-GPL
license. There's nothing wrong with code being released under two or
more different licenses, but it can't be forked *away* from GPL.

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 1:09:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

My fork is legally independant of GPL and the GPL stream. Doesn't
anybody bother to do a Google search or read FAQs any more?
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 3:54:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:D d7k0i$rtt$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
> Laurent Bugnion <lbugnion@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> >
> > I am not a christian, I left the reformed church exactly because of
> > this kind of disrespectful amd disgraceful attitude. I follow my own
> > path
> > now, and I am shocked by someone trying to impose his own views on
> > others.
>
> Yes, it is disgraceful. The religious angle is also why I have ignored
> the author's email offer of a free license to have me test it.

If only you understood the meaning of the word, "grace"!
August 9, 2005 5:49:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:D d8olf$val$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
> David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:44:08 +0100, Harold wrote:
>>
>>> Is it actually legal to "fork" GPL code and sell the result? I have
>>> serious doubts.
>>
>> Yes, 100% legal and the license encourages it.
>
> As long as the forked code is *also* made freely available and includes
> all GPL licenses, yes. If not, the developer will have to go back to
> the original authors and get a copy from them under a different non-GPL
> license. There's nothing wrong with code being released under two or
> more different licenses, but it can't be forked *away* from GPL.
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>
I said in a later post, which seems to have got lost, that (a) I retract my
comment and (b) it is legal *provided* the seller makes machine readable
source code available on demand to any purchaser at a price no more than the
seller's cost of distribution of that code.

I went on to say "Presumably Yanoff is doing that ???".

If the machine readable source code is not made available to a legitimate
purchaser of the binary then the seller is in breach of the GPL. The seller
does not have to make the source available to all and sundry - only to
purchasers of the forked binary.

--
Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 5:49:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Harold <harold@wolfeden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If the machine readable source code is not made available to a
> legitimate purchaser of the binary then the seller is in breach of
> the GPL. The seller does not have to make the source available to all
> and sundry - only to purchasers of the forked binary.

See the GPL, section 2b:

2b) "You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part
thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties
under the terms of this License."

Note the "any third party".

There's a similar clause in section 3b for the source code:
3. "You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and
2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years,
to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of
physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable
copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms
of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
interchange; or"
(Section 3c does not apply)

In other words, if Gregg Woodcock based his version of Yanoff on a GPL
version, he does have to provide the source code to "all and sundry".

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 8:40:35 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

> Presumably Yanoff complies with this ???

Ha, of course it doesn't. The newsgroup's favourite Real Christian is
a thief, not that cognitive dissonance would allow him to admit to to
himself.

--
Chris
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 8:40:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi,

Chris Baird wrote:
> > Presumably Yanoff complies with this ???
>
> Ha, of course it doesn't. The newsgroup's favourite Real Christian is
> a thief, not that cognitive dissonance would allow him to admit to to
> himself.

Please allow me, as the OP, to state that I am not aware of the problem
you mention here. I corresponded briefly with Mr Woodcock many years
ago, just before he started implementing changes into the GPL version of
Yanoff. I then lost interest in this product because it's cumbersome to
surf on GPRS other than in "emergency" cases. I re-downloaded it lately
after I bought my LD, but as I wrote my post, I was not aware that there
were already what seems to be very strong feelings against Mr Woodcock.

Just wanted this to be clear.

Laurent
August 9, 2005 12:29:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:D d928j$cp$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
> Harold <harold@wolfeden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> If the machine readable source code is not made available to a
>> legitimate purchaser of the binary then the seller is in breach of
>> the GPL. The seller does not have to make the source available to all
>> and sundry - only to purchasers of the forked binary.
>
> See the GPL, section 2b:
>
> 2b) "You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
> whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part
> thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties
> under the terms of this License."
>
> Note the "any third party".
>
> There's a similar clause in section 3b for the source code:
> 3. "You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
> under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
> Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
>
> a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
> source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and
> 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
>
> b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years,
> to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of
> physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable
> copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms
> of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
> interchange; or"
> (Section 3c does not apply)
>
> In other words, if Gregg Woodcock based his version of Yanoff on a GPL
> version, he does have to provide the source code to "all and sundry".
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>
From the FAQ at:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllo...

===== begin quote ====
If I distribute GPL'd software for a fee, am I required to also make it
available to the public without a charge?
No. However, if someone pays your fee and gets a copy, the GPL gives them
the freedom to release it to the public, with or without a fee. For example,
someone could pay your fee, and then put her copy on a web site for the
general public.
===== end quote =====

That sounds to me like the *seller* doesn't have to make the source
available to non-purchasers of the binary. The buyer could, though.

--
Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
August 9, 2005 12:39:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

<woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote in message
news:1123560545.782227.9330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My fork is legally independant of GPL and the GPL stream. Doesn't
> anybody bother to do a Google search or read FAQs any more?
>
A fork *cannot* be legally independent of the licence. Read the licence. In
particular, sections 1 and 2 which, being near the beginning, are hard to
miss.

For example, section 2b:
======= begin quote ====
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.
======= end quote =====

--
Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 12:39:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hello, Harold!
You wrote:

> <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:1123560545.782227.9330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > My fork is legally independant of GPL and the GPL stream.
> > Doesn't
> > anybody bother to do a Google search or read FAQs any more?
> >
> A fork *cannot* be legally independent of the licence. Read
> the licence. In
> particular, sections 1 and 2 which, being near the beginning,
> are hard to
> miss.
>

It can be perfectly legal. How it works:

If you create some software, you own the copyright to the
software. If you own the copyright, you can then license the
software to whomever you want under whatever terms you can get
someone to agree. The clincher is you do NOT have to use the
same license - you can license your work to Mr Jones under
completely different terms than you license to Mr Smith.

So the original author of the original Yanoff kindly decided to
offer his work to anyone who downloaded it under the term of the
GPL license. He also decided, for whatever reason (likely
money), to offer it to Mr Woodcock under a less restrictive
license. Thus Mr Woodcock does not have to follow the terms of
the GPL, as that is not the license he agreed to.

This happens all the time with open source projects. The only
hitch is dealing with contributions. The original author of
Yanoff could only offer Mr Woodcock an alternative license for
_the work that he owns the copyright_ - typically this means that
any contributions made by third parties cannot be offered. The
original Yanoff author would have to strip out any third party
contributions from the codebase he licensed to Mr Woodcock.

When you contribute work to an open source project, typically
YOU retain the copyright, and you simply license your work back
to the open source project under the same terms as everyone else
(gpl, bsd, apache, etc). However, some open source projects may
ask you to assign the copyright over to them. They do this
because then they would have the right to relicense your work to
someone else under different terms, perhaps making some
significant $$$ in the process.

How do I know all this? Because I work full time on open source
software at a University, and spent many hours with University
lawyers discussing license issues.

regards,
Todd

p.s. I tried New Yanoff, and it was not for me. I use the
original GPL Yanoff with Fonts4OS5 and am generally happy.

--
Posted via a Palm Tungsten C
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 1:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Harold wrote:

> <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:1123560545.782227.9330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> My fork is legally independant of GPL and the GPL stream. Doesn't
>> anybody bother to do a Google search or read FAQs any more?
>>
> A fork *cannot* be legally independent of the licence. Read the licence.
> In particular, sections 1 and 2 which, being near the beginning, are hard
> to miss.
>
> For example, section 2b:
> ======= begin quote ====
> b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
> whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
> part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
> parties under the terms of this License.
> ======= end quote =====

I asked the developer about GPL contradictions in the past and was pointed
to:

http://www.palmyanoff.com/manual.htm#thedeal

Roy
August 9, 2005 2:27:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in message
news:D d9pvh$1hai$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk...
> Harold wrote:
>
>> <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote in message
>> news:1123560545.782227.9330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> My fork is legally independant of GPL and the GPL stream. Doesn't
>>> anybody bother to do a Google search or read FAQs any more?
>>>
>> A fork *cannot* be legally independent of the licence. Read the licence.
>> In particular, sections 1 and 2 which, being near the beginning, are hard
>> to miss.
>>
>> For example, section 2b:
>> ======= begin quote ====
>> b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
>> whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
>> part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
>> parties under the terms of this License.
>> ======= end quote =====
>
> I asked the developer about GPL contradictions in the past and was pointed
> to:
>
> http://www.palmyanoff.com/manual.htm#thedeal
>
> Roy
Hmm.

In that case I think the subject of this thread ought to be changed to "Very
disappointed and shocked by the Free Software Foundation"

But I suppose they need the money.

Oh well, lose a few lose a few.

--
Harold Fuchs
Where it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
-- Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 2:27:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Harold <harold@wolfeden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in message
> news:D d9pvh$1hai$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk...
>>
>> I asked the developer about GPL contradictions in the past and was
>> pointed to:
>>
>> http://www.palmyanoff.com/manual.htm#thedeal
>>
> Hmm.
>
> In that case I think the subject of this thread ought to be changed
> to "Very disappointed and shocked by the Free Software Foundation"
>
> But I suppose they need the money.

The information on the web page states:

"In exchange for an unconditional license of the single-point-in-time
fork of the GPL source code, we agreed to pay royalty to the Free
Software Foundation (FSF) on behalf of Matthias. In addition we agreed
to pass along bug reports (and fixes) to Matthias so that anyone
interested in fixing the GPL release might do so."

Question is who "we" are. Does it include FSF, or is it something that
Messrs Woodcock and van Best decided? If the latter, it's still
illegal, as they don't have the right. I haven't seen anything from FSF
on this, which would be a natural thing to post on the web site /if/ the
FSF has granted a termination of the GPL for this application.

--
*Art
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:29:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:52:19 -0400, Arthur Hagen wrote:

> In other words, if Gregg Woodcock based his version of Yanoff on a GPL
> version, he does have to provide the source code to "all and sundry".

Except in the case where the version Gregg Woodcock obtained from the
original author is not covered by the GPL, but by a completely separate
license altogether. Matthias emailed me in response to this exact point
about 6 months ago or more.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:37:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Arthur Hagen wrote:

> Harold <harold@wolfeden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in message
>> news:D d9pvh$1hai$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk...
>>>
>>> I asked the developer about GPL contradictions in the past and was
>>> pointed to:
>>>
>>> http://www.palmyanoff.com/manual.htm#thedeal
>>>
>> Hmm.
>>
>> In that case I think the subject of this thread ought to be changed
>> to "Very disappointed and shocked by the Free Software Foundation"
>>
>> But I suppose they need the money.
>
> The information on the web page states:
>
> "In exchange for an unconditional license of the single-point-in-time
> fork of the GPL source code, we agreed to pay royalty to the Free
> Software Foundation (FSF) on behalf of Matthias. In addition we agreed
> to pass along bug reports (and fixes) to Matthias so that anyone
> interested in fixing the GPL release might do so."
>
> Question is who "we" are. Does it include FSF, or is it something that
> Messrs Woodcock and van Best decided? If the latter, it's still
> illegal, as they don't have the right. I haven't seen anything from FSF
> on this, which would be a natural thing to post on the web site /if/ the
> FSF has granted a termination of the GPL for this application.

I don't know the FSF's regulations too well, but are you suggesting that
there was an agreement to fork a GPL 'mission' into a commercial one?

I know for a fact that 'mushrooming' a commercial[1] extension from a
project that was committed to the GPL is immoral if not illegal at worst.
Imagine yourself publicly-funded or voluntarily-supported projects like
Apache and Firefox going commercial (READ: pricy) after their current
release...

Roy

[1] Where the source is not publicly available hence not shared among the
community.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:37:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> It is much better to say things
> such as one of the other posters who suggested a 1st-time-run wizard
> (which I actually added a few months ago and will be in 3.1).

That "other poster" would be me. Again.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:37:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"David A. Desrosiers" <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.08.09.19.37.29.58389@gnu-designs.com...
> On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:
>
> > It is much better to say things
> > such as one of the other posters who suggested a 1st-time-run wizard
> > (which I actually added a few months ago and will be in 3.1).
>
> That "other poster" would be me. Again.

Well, looky there. How wrong I was and don't I look silly!
It is true that many times in the past, you have been insightfully specific
in many previous communications (private and public) about New Yanoff. This
is the first time things got significantly vague and unfriendly. In any
case, I definitely overgeneralized about you and ask you please forgive my
hasty and inaccurate characterization of you.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:38:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> The conduit was
> broken by Palm when they desupported Java conduits WITH NO NOTICE (for the
> same OS/HW mentioned previously) and we have been hounding Palm to fix
> this and, amazingly, THEY JUST DID!

Yes... a month ago, on July 15th. What took you so long to notice?
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:43:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

>> Show me the teachings of Jesus that
>> advocates this. Bible, chapter and verse please, so I can verify it.
>
> It would be my *pleasure*, should you posit a valid Christian tenet for
> me to prove.
> I don't really think you want to argue scripture with me, you being an
> unbeliever.

You're confusing one who chooses a different path, with one who
does not understand that path. Don't be misled by that myth. I know quite
a bit more about religion than most, having had to study it in order to
make a clear decision to choose my own path.

I would love to argue scripture with you, and unfortunately for
you, I have facts that back up my decisions, based on research of dozens
of religions. You have your "beliefs", which are hardly justifiable in any
sort of argument that is based upon facts.

Being an "unbeliever" (your words, oppressed as they are, since you
never actually asked me what I believed), does not make one "uneducated".

So lets not go there. We will both lose.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 7:43:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"David A. Desrosiers" <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.08.09.19.43.24.54860@gnu-designs.com...
> On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:
>
> You're confusing one who chooses a different path, with one who
> does not understand that path.

Only you can say for sure, but I'll take your word for it.
I should better have said something like this:
If you do not acknowledge the inerrancy and jurisdiction of the Bible, then
it seems silly that you'd want me to prove Christian doctrine using this
Christian handbook. I'll be happy to do so, though, if it pleases you (just
follow up in email)...

> Don't be misled by that myth. I know quite
> a bit more about religion than most, having had to study it in order to
> make a clear decision to choose my own path.

Good for you. Most people nowadays spend little time and give almost no
thought on the most iportant question of all: Why am I here?

> I would love to argue scripture with you, and unfortunately for
> you, I have facts that back up my decisions, based on research of dozens
> of religions. You have your "beliefs", which are hardly justifiable in any
> sort of argument that is based upon facts.

Theare are no facts contrary to Christianity or the Bible.
In fact, yearly there are additional archaeological discoveries backing up
Biblical history.

> Being an "unbeliever" (your words, oppressed as they are, since you
> never actually asked me what I believed), does not make one "uneducated".

Public devil's advocacy against Jesus is a wholly illegitemate role of a
genuine Christian. You make your unbelief plain despite the truth that
you've never bothered to label it so yourself.

> So lets not go there. We will both lose.

While I do not tire of this, no doubt most everybody else has.
May God's grace be with you, David.
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 8:46:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Gregg Woodcock wrote:
>
> "David A. Desrosiers" <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.08.09.19.43.24.54860@gnu-designs.com...
> > On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:23:00 -0500, Gregg Woodcock wrote:
> >
> > You're confusing one who chooses a different path, with one who
> > does not understand that path.
>
> Only you can say for sure, but I'll take your word for it.
> I should better have said something like this:
> If you do not acknowledge the inerrancy and jurisdiction of the Bible, then
> it seems silly that you'd want me to prove Christian doctrine using this
> Christian handbook. I'll be happy to do so, though, if it pleases you (just
> follow up in email)...
>
> > Don't be misled by that myth. I know quite
> > a bit more about religion than most, having had to study it in order to
> > make a clear decision to choose my own path.
>
> Good for you. Most people nowadays spend little time and give almost no
> thought on the most iportant question of all: Why am I here?
>
> <snip>

"Why am I here?"

With all this thumping, some of us were wondering the same thing.

Notan
Anonymous
August 9, 2005 9:14:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

David A. Desrosiers <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:52:19 -0400, Arthur Hagen wrote:
>
>> In other words, if Gregg Woodcock based his version of Yanoff on a
>> GPL version, he does have to provide the source code to "all and
>> sundry".
>
> Except in the case where the version Gregg Woodcock obtained from the
> original author is not covered by the GPL, but by a completely
> separate license altogether. Matthias emailed me in response to this
> exact point about 6 months ago or more.

Note my "if".

--
*Art
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 4:28:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hello, Laurent Bugnion !
You wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> Todd Tannenbaum wrote:
> > It can be perfectly legal. How it works:
>
> <snip>
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that all these lawyers and their
> licenses
> take all the fun out of programming? ;-)
>

Nope. I imagine many share your view, including myself on
plenty of occasions. :) .

-Todd


> Laurent
> --
> Laurent Bugnion, GalaSoft
> Software engineering: http://www.galasoft-LB.ch
> Private/Malaysia: http://mypage.bluewin.ch/lbugnion
> Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

--
Posted via a Palm Tungsten C
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 12:45:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Hi group,

Please note that because I am leaving for holidays, I won't be able to
take part to this thread anymore. This is not very important, because I
feel that I have more or less said (many times...) what I had to say
about this subject. I am happy that we were able to have a calm
conversation about this, without flames or name-calling (other than "you
christians" or "you non-christians" ;-) I honestly felt that this was
worth a discussion. If anything, I would like the audience and Mr
Woodcock to believe that I was, and still am, sincere about my feelings
about this. Some feel I overreacted, but what is acceptable to some is
sensitive to others. Besides, some writers here think the same as I do,
which is enough to comfort me in my idea that it was worth talking about it.

Greetings,
Laurent
!