FX5700U or R9600XT?

Yangster · Jan 2, 2004

I'm having a tough time deciding between the FX5700U and R9600XT, any suggestions on which one?

The 9600XT says that it has 2x400MHz RAMDACs. Does the 5700U also have 2x?

Also, ATI's site didn't mention how many vertices the 9600XT shaded per second, anyone know?

The radeon one has a bandwidth of 9.6GB/s as opposed to 16.6GB/s. Will this make a big difference, or will it hardly reach that anyway (like with SATA HDD's)? Would comparing specs be more useful or looking at the benchmark results?

Finally, something that appeals to me about the radeon card is it has FullStream, which deblocks videos that you watch on the internet. I was wondering if anyone knew if it also deblocked saved videos too.

Thanks if you can help me choose.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 2, 2004

any suggestions on which one?

Whichever one is cheaper and offers the features you want. I would recommend ASUS or Hercules for the ATI and Gainward or MSI for the nV.

The 9600XT says that it has 2x400MHz RAMDACs. Does the 5700U also have 2x?

Yes, all the ATI R9XXX (and R8500 and most 7500), and the nV FX line have dual 400 mhx RAMDACs.

Will this make a big difference, or will it hardly reach that anyway (like with SATA HDD's)? Would comparing specs be more useful or looking at the benchmark results?

The R9600 series' performance could be greatly improved by more memory bandwidth (to send it way beyond the FX5700U), but for the most part the FX5700's greater bandwidth is negated by inefficient use of that massive bandwidth. In the end they are both very close to each other. It also seems to depend greatly on which card you get. There are some FX5700Us that come already overclocked, and that's the same with the R9600XTs, some of the XTs with 2.86ns memory have great memory OC ability (not all of them though, and not the 3.3ns version; and NONE will reach the bandwidth levels of the FX5700U). But this is a minor consideration. Even in situations that are often seen as memory/bandwidth limited the two cards trade score/performance from game to game benchmark to benchmark.
Raw data will rarely give you an acutrrate picture of performance, the only true way to tell is with actual results. One need only look at the performance of the last generation (R9600P v. FX5600U [R1 or R2]) of cards to see that.

[re: FullStream]I was wondering if anyone knew if it also deblocked saved videos too.

Yes, it works with DivX, the ATI Mediaplayer, and RealPlayer. It does work with DivX and the Ati MediaPlayer. I don't usually watch saved Real stuff, so I'm not sure if that does work. From what I've found depending on the video sometimes Fullstream seems to introduce the occasional hiccup in playback that I didn't experience while using Windows Media Player (not Fullstream enabled yet, that I know of).

As for choosing, really it depends on which games you will be playing and exactly what you will be doing with your card. For video playback I'd go with the ATIs, but for gaming it's really dependant on whihc games you favour. The FX5700's 3 vertex shader engines/pipes help in some games, and the R9600's better pixel shader functionality (although the FX5700 is not the slouch it's brothers are, just still not as good as the R9600s) will help in other areas. Read all the reviews you can get your hands on, and decide whihc games/results best reflect your expected usage.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

cleeve · Jan 2, 2004

Ape is of course right on this one, both are great cards and you can't really lose with either one.

I'd personally go with the 9600XT because I'm a sucker for advanced pixel shader effects and hope that upcoming titles will use the heck out of 'em.

________________
Radeon 9500 PRO (hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)
AthlonXP 2600+ (o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)
3dMark03: 4,055

HardWareBoss · Jan 2, 2004

I agree with what GG said. Toss a coin to decide.

Yangster · Jan 2, 2004

Alright, thanks guys.

In Australia, the prices of these things are pretty weird. For example, the MSI 5700U costs the same as the Leadtek counterpart (I've never seen Gainward)at one store. But at another store, they've only got the Leadtek one, but it's $100 cheaper... So, if I get the 5700, I'd have to get Leadtek...

About the 9600XT (which I think I'm getting now), they don't have the Asus ones in Australia, so I'd be getting the Sapphire one. Problem is, they only have a 256MB one for Sapphire, which costs $334. The only other choice is a 128MB card made by Gigacube, costing $265. And the Hercules ones are twice as expensive, so should I save 70 dollars and get a Gigacube? Or spend a little more on the Sapphire?

The thing that makes me lean towards the 9600XT, is what you guys said. Both are great cards, and 60FPS vs 50FPS isn't a big difference. However, the ATI one has the FullStream, useful since I've always been annoyed with the blockiness of videos.

That brings me to my last question. If you think that Gigacube is a fairly good company, then I'm definitely getting it ($10 cheaper than 5700 Ultra). Else, do you think it's worth spending another $60AUD on getting FullStream and an extra 128MB?

Thanks.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 3, 2004

Not a fan of Gigacube. Ask people around here about their experiences, and check the Buyer's guide FAQ on front of graphics forum for input.

Your options are very limited though.

Tough call. 256mb does not give any advantage to the R9600 series. If you could get a Sapphire with 128 for around the same price as the Gigacube that would be good. Sapphires aren't the cream of the crop though, just a good standard. Asus and Hercules are above that standard, Gigacube would fall below it IMO.

The MSI is an overclocked board IIRC, thus the premium.

<A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/gffx-34.html" target="_new">Special MSI review w/ 3Dmk03</A>

I would spend a little more time looking if you can.

I'm just not happy with recommending a Gigacube/GeXcube solution.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

-NEW PIC IN THGC ALBUM-

gossspel · Jan 3, 2004

No don't get the gigacube, to hell with all the gigacube, they have sucky craps. The memmory of that 9600xt is likely to be3.3ns and one thing to remind you, if you like fx 5700, you should get the ultra version(a lot better memmory)and Leadtek is a fine NV company, they made rock solid cards and very overclockable, but in this case, if you want to go for fx 5700ultra, may be if you pay 20 bucks or 30bucks more to get a fx 5900se or a plain fx 5900 would be a better choice. EVGA fx 5900se and fx 5900 had retail version of call of duty inside. Not sure if you like it though. But i think it would be a good choice.

Vimp · Jan 3, 2004

If Half Life 2 didn't come with the 9600XT then I think I'd most likly go with the FX5700 Ultra simply because performance wise I think its slightly above the 9600XT with the exception of using the latest directX9 pixel shaders. Also I see far less people having issues with Nvidia cards compared to ATI cards.

On another note about comparing cards hardware specs. I have found that comparing Nvidia cards to other Nvidia cards spec-wise can easily show you where each card stands compared to the other. Same thing applies to comparing ATI cards to other ATI cards. Its only when comparing ATI to Nvidia cards hardware specs together that its far more apparent where each stands using benchmarks instead.

ytoledano · Jan 3, 2004

Consider the Radeon9800 non pro, if the price difference isn't too great then this is a really good card.

Got a nice overclocked overvolted system to keep you warm at night? That's great. Guess I'll have to settle for a woman...

Yangster · Jan 3, 2004

Thanks guys. However, although it may only cost another $20 or so in the US, in Australia, anything slightly better would cost at least $500, that's nearly twice. Don'
t ask me why, according to currency exchange, it should only cost a maximum of $40 extra, but that's the way things are in Australia.

So really my only possible options are the 5700U (ultra) and the 9600XT.

I've google searched all the Australian sites, there are no Asus 9600XT's... Hercules ones cost $150 more, and the 128MB Sapphire one costs $20 more than the 256MB one because its from a more expensive shop. So yeah, that's a pity...

I don't quite understand what's wrong with Gigacube. I don't have any personal experience, but according to THG, the speed, etc... should be identical. The only thing I'm concerned about is warranty, OC potential, and fan noise.

So I'm in a bit of a pickle. If I get the 9600XT, I have 3 choices. GC at $263, Sapphire(Lite) at $290 or Sapphire(full) at $334. Now, I actually don't really care about the software bundle, but there are a few stuff I would like. Anyone know if the Lite version of Sapphire at least comes with the ATI MediaPlayer and programs to aid in OCing? If not, then I only have 2 options for 9600XT. Dang I'm in a pickle.

Truthfully, the only 2 reasons I am favouring 9600XT is because of FullStream, and better AA and AF for future games (I don't intend to throw out a $300 card in any less than 1.5 years). About FullStream, I get really annoyed at blocky videos... But otherwise, I mean, they really only have a few frames per second difference, nothing the eye can see. So, GreatGrapeApe, how good is this FullStream thing?

Oh, and another reason was: I read that nVidia's drivers remained on your PC and gave the ATi card a hard time. You needed this drive cleaner program. So I thought that was a bit of bad sportsmanship. But mainly it was the other reason.

Thanks if you can help me sort out some of the above stuff.

BirdRobin · Jan 3, 2004

err my r9600pro has 2x500mhz ramdacs...

Athlon XP 1800+ (1.52ghz) O/Ced.
Gigabyte GA-7VKML
Powercolour R9600pro Bravo @ 480/340
128+256 PC2100 DDR
IBM 20gb 5400rpm 2mb+WD 40gb 5400rpm 2mb
Creative SB Live! 5.1 Digital

Ion · Jan 3, 2004

Where did you found "lite" sapphire? All i see in Australia for sapphire is the 256mb 9600XT :frown: . If i was going get the lite version i would ask the store to provide me detail about the package + detailed specs. As for the software i think you can easily download them off the net.

ytoledano · Jan 3, 2004

Check out the Radeon9600Pro in regards to OC potential, since the XT is like an overclocked Pro, then it should be easier to overclock the Pro version close to XT frequencies (memory speed is the same, the Pro has a 400MHZ core and the XT has 500MHZ) there is also another small difference which I don't remember but it isn't significant. Also, check to see if you get HL2 with the XT, consider if it's worth it. Note that the Pro is still condidered one of the cards that would give the most value and still play every modern game at high detail and some AS/FSAA (cards which have good value tend to be low-end).
Also note the Radeon 9500Pro which is really rare in the US since it's discontinued but can be found abroad sometimes, the is probably your best choice, it's much better than the 9600 Pro and XT and will probably cost you less.

I like to format and install Windows as a fresh installation but that's because I'm a reinstall freak and becuase I've done it so many times it takes me 3 hours to set everything up as it was before. Some people say they have extreme problems with their drivers, others have none... You really can't guess how it'd be.

My Radeon9600 Pro is GigaCube (now they're called GeCube). I had a major problem with it at first, it turned out that the card was essentially damaged, though it was replaced and now I'm really happy with it. It has 3.3ns memory but which I've been able to overclock to 626MHZ (the memory) from 590MHZ. I've also overclocked the core from 400 to 460-450. But I have the Pro version I imagine the XT would give different results (stock speeds of XT: Core: 500, memory 300 (600DDR)).

Got a nice overclocked overvolted system to keep you warm at night? That's great. Guess I'll have to settle for a woman...

ecar016 · Jan 3, 2004

the 9600XT should come with a voucher for HL2.....if you dont play it then sell it and re-coup some $$$$$$. All ATI cards come with MMC multimedia centre and a whack of CD/DVD software. I always found it superior (multimedia) to the Nvdia stuff. The 9600XT should come with overdrive (overclocking for novices) and you can download the newest from ATI.com.....IMO:

buy the 9600XT with 256MB....pay the extra, sell the HL2 and your net result is the same price as the lower......

win...win...win

Ec

(edited...spelling, oops)
 Quantum Computers! - very interesting Edited by ecar016 on 01/03/04 11:13 AM.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 4, 2004

err my r9600pro has 2x500mhz ramdacs..

<A HREF="http://" target="_new">Sure it does</A>.

*cough* BULL$HIT *cough*

Mine had 2X666mhz RAMDACs for extra Evil!

:evil:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 4, 2004

since the XT is like an overclocked Pro

No it's not. The R9600XT uses a different process (low-K silly-cones) it can overclock even further. Saying the XT is just an overclocked Pro ignores the additional overhead ontop of the pro's. [edit]: Many reviewers have the XTs breaching the 600mhz realm, with a few approaching 650.

(now they're called GeCube).

That's GeXcube.

BTW, my BBA pro came with 2.86 ns memory and I've been able to overclock it to <A HREF="http://arc.aquamark3.com/arc/arc_view.php?run=1012190478" target="_new">371(742)</A>
So that would be an example of why I find Giga/GeXcube to be substandard, cheaper memory, terrible core overclocks, the whole shebang. And that's similar to the experiences of people on sites like Rage3D, Beyond3D, and a few others.

The new XTs unfortunately have a bunch that come with the 3.3ns memory too, which is a serious flaw. Anything slower than 3.0ns has nothing to offer from overclocking.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 01/03/04 06:27 PM.

GeneticWeapon · Jan 4, 2004

The new XTs unfortunately have a bunch that come with the 3.3ns memory too

About 95% of them come with 3.3ns memory.....boooooring!

Athlon XP 2100+ @2.02Ghz
MSI K7N2 Delta-L nForce2 Ultra 400
768mb of Generic DDR266 @310 6-3-3-2
Built by ATi R9800 @420/630

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 4, 2004

Well the ASUS, Hercules, Gigabyte, and the high-end GeXcube and Powercolor (yeas I know that's like an oxy-moron) boards all come with 2.86ns memory so I'd think the figure is getting lower all the time, and I doubt after the first month that it was in the 90s percentage wise.

IT is a crutch for them though. And what sucks is that ALL the BBA boards come with the 3.3ns memorry, and the mediocre performance of the FX5700U (compared to early reviews impression) has made that respin unnecessary. Too bad I would have liked to see a Revision 1 of the XT that would've been a nice card. Especially if they went with the 2.5ns memory of the R9800XT. The ASUS and such boards are ok though. I think the PC BRAVO edition is supposed to have the 2.5ns memory on it (they have a 'stock' memory speed of somewhere in the high 300s (~7XX). IF it were Sapphire, Asus, Herc, or Gigabyte, then I'd recommend that one. But not with PC.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Vimp · Jan 4, 2004

How does one come to find out what memory timings cards come with? What memory latency does the Asus 9600XT card have and how do you find these things out?

Edited by Vimp on 01/03/04 05:28 PM.

GeneticWeapon · Jan 4, 2004

I think your confusing memory timings with nanosecond ratings(.ns)

Athlon XP 2100+ @2.02Ghz
MSI K7N2 Delta-L nForce2 Ultra 400
768mb of Generic DDR266 @310 6-3-3-2
Built by ATi R9800 @420/630

GeneticWeapon · Jan 4, 2004

Grape, although your right about more 9600XT's coming out with fast memory, they still seem to be rare among the forum users I've seen who actually have purchased one. I rarely see threads about 9600XT owners having one of the faster cards.....maybe I'm wrong...

Athlon XP 2100+ @2.02Ghz
MSI K7N2 Delta-L nForce2 Ultra 400
768mb of Generic DDR266 @310 6-3-3-2
Built by ATi R9800 @420/630

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jan 4, 2004

I think it has to do with the intial shipments. Also the people complaining the most (same with the original pro) are the ones who feel they got a $hit version of their cards, like all the early complaints about the myriad of memory modules that appear on the Sapphire R9600P cards (over 7 types last time I counted). I've seen quite a few out there, usually from people trying to boast about their new card (not that any of us have done that

) but I would agree that the majority of the chatter out there is from people with the 3.3ns memory.

I'd also say that the majority of people are likely buying cheaper boards, or BBA cards in the mistaken thought that they are all the same. I have seen the talk about the Asus' go from, "yeah I got the crap memory on my card too" to "and my board came with the 2.86ns memory!". Some like the Sapphires are actually shipping with 325mhz stock memory speed, like the R9600P Fireblades. I've seen alot of praise of those. But early model were also 300mhz and crap memory. Sapphire has a 'built-in' refresh it seems in their Fireblade line, and made what they intended to release as a second line, they simply decided to replace their regular cards with. Dunno, but I've seen alot of those.

All in all though I'd say it's a risky matter, especially for those who want to make the most of the new card. The Core is a pretty consistent overclcocker to about 600mhz. But most review sites show that the Memory is the limiting factor and large boosts of the core (like +50mhz) don't make as much diff. as smaller boosts (like +10-15mhz [20-30]) of the memory. This card REALLY would have benifited from memory at least equivalent to the FX5600U, let alone the FX5700U. Heckeven the FX5200Ultra has a higher stock memory speed than most R9600s (except the AIW).

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Yangster · Jan 4, 2004

Alright... I'm starting to get very confused now. About that memory thing. I couldn't find anywhere on the Sapphire, ATi, or Gigacube sites about whether it was 2.86 or 3.3ns... So, does that really affect overclocking potential? Is there ANY way at all (without tearing up the package inside the shop) to find out whether it has 2.86 or 3.3ns mem?

Anyone know what the Leadtek 5700U's OC potential is?

Really now, I only have a few important things to decide between the Leadtek and Sapphire: OC potential; fan noise; FullStream vs $60 extra and that mem speed thing. Otherwise, I believe they're about the same, only a few FPS off each other.

Now, does anyone know what the fan noise is for the Sapphire (not on their site)? I know the Leadtek's fan is 28dB.

So, does the 5700U have good OC potential?

How good is FullStream? If I get 5700U instead, anyone know if there are any software (preferably free) that do something similar?

And lastly I need to consider the mem thing. If there is no way to tell on the box whether it's 2.86 or 3.3, then what are my chances of getting a 2.86 from Sapphire? Else, if I get a 3.3, how badly will it affect OC potential? And did THG's benchmark test use a 3.3 or 2.86ns mem?

Good idea about selling the HL2 voucher though... They still pack it, right?

BirdRobin · Jan 4, 2004

>.< but it says this DAC Type: Internal DAC(500MHz) under the adapter infomation... (Display properties >settings >advanced >adapter)
is that the speed of the ramdac? or am i mistaken? =(

Athlon XP 1800+ (1.52ghz) O/Ced.
Gigabyte GA-7VKML
Powercolour R9600pro Bravo @ 480/340
128+256 PC2100 DDR
IBM 20gb 5400rpm 2mb+WD 40gb 5400rpm 2mb
Creative SB Live! 5.1 Digital

Ed_Phoon · Jan 4, 2004

Just visted a forum, heard that gigabyte 9600xt comes with 2.86ns ram, and very competitive priced too.

Going to grap one, more information later.

FX5700U or R9600XT?

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