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TV OUT - nVidia FX5900 vs Ati 9800 Pro

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January 11, 2004 9:22:18 AM

If for you not only graphics speed matters, but you also need a high quality TV Out then this might interest you:


Ati 9800 Pro TV Out:

- Complex to set up
Dip switches on card have to be set up correctly

- TV will only show B&W picture (In some cases).
Catalyst Driver has compatibility problems with some TV´s. (In some cases this is due to incorrect dip switch settings on the card or wrong driver settigns - both of these cases are correctable by user - in other cases the PROBLEM CAN NOT BE FIXED)

- TV OUT Flexibility/Control is poor
When using multiple displays it is often useful to configure exactly how the TV display should behave
(Clone Mode, Horizontal or Vertical Stretch to TV, Dual Mode, TV resolution, Window Management)
Unfortunatly the catalyst driver does not offer much choice here.


nVidia FX5900 Ultra TV Out:

- Easy set up
No need to set dip switches (be sure to buy correct version though - PAL or NTSC - depending on your countries TV encoding)

- TV color quality is superb

- TV OUT Flexibility/Control is superb
The default settings are very good, but additionllly nVidia´s nView offers a million possibilities configuring how exactly the TV display should behave (Too many to list here)


CONCLUSION:
The result couldn´t be clearer:
Ati´s 9800 Pro TV OUT is (sorry) CRAP.
Whereas the nVidia FX5900 TV OUT is SUPERB.

So if you often use TV OUT dont bother with the Ati, get the nVidia. nVidia might cost a few bucks more, but is definatly worth the money.

(Tested cards were: Powercolor 9800 Pro & Asus V9950 Ultra)
January 11, 2004 12:55:33 PM

I'm waiting to see the rush of replies claiming that ATI does this best,that best etc.

Usually you get immediate responses.....

Where are they..............ooy....come back.......
..........................................
...........where are you hiding................
January 11, 2004 2:00:54 PM

TV out using traditional methods is dead.......
with digital push the next generation cards will HDTV out!!!!!

no more setup

EC


<font color=red> Quantum Computers! - very interesting </font color=red>
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January 11, 2004 8:58:33 PM

Okay so for the 0.001% of people who are only worried about TV out get the nVidia, the other 99.999% get the ATi card - works for me :wink:
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 11, 2004 11:50:06 PM

nVidiots strike again.

Of course you missed adding MAtrox which pummels the ATI's (whose TV out quality is better than nV's) and is easier to set up than both.

Seriously your post is such weak pambulum I can't even work up the motivation to trash it properly.

Weak effort at trolling, even for an nVidiot.

Buy a Matrox card if TV-out is something you care about.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 1:29:21 AM

The Nvidiot strike back

My own beast: Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/370) , 512mb ddr400. SO MUCH faster than my last computer (pIII 550......)
January 12, 2004 4:33:10 AM

My Geforce3 TV out was decent, quality wise, but there were so few options in the nVidia drivers that I had to get Tvtool AND, PNY screwed something up and I couldn't get it to work the 1st 6 months I owned it until I flashed it with a nVidia reference bios. My new 9800Pro has everything I need (so far) built into the catalyst drivers. The text is also a little sharper than with the Nvidia card. ATi wins this round.

<font color=purple>AMD XP 2500+ @ 3200+/200, A7N8X Dlx, 512mb PC3200 Corsair XMS DDR, ATi 9800Pro, Audigy Platinum, 2/5 TB of storage, TDK 48x CDRW, Lite-On 16x DVD, XP Pro SP1, and more neon than a ghetto sled
January 12, 2004 12:06:36 PM

When I decided to upgrade my Riva TNT 2 to a new card I listened to the 99 % of guys who said Radeon rules, get that one. I did. But what I should've done is listened to a guy I personally knew as he had bought Radeon too but returned it and got GF3 Ti 200.

What happened to me is that I bought Radeon 8500 (1½ years ago) and it was ok considering games and TV-out quality was good but it just didn't show the image through TV-out for everything I wanted. Mostly it liked only Media Player and certain file types, not all. Those that didn't show, showed only dark-violet screen in TV instead of the picture (movie) that could be seen on monitor. Same problem with some games.

After 6 months I just got fed up with it, sold it and got GF4 MX as I didn't have enough money for GF4 Ti. I also wanted either GF4 MX or Ti because those had something better compared to the TV-out quality of older GeForces. Perhaps the RAMDAC speed? Well, anyway, I could and still can get any picture that I can see on my monitor shown through TV-out without the dark-violet screen issue that I had with Radeon 8500. Also games ran actually faster than with Radeon 8500 since I had only 1,3 GHz Duron. Now that I have XP 2600+ Radeon 8500 might be faster for games.

I mentioned that games ran fine with Radeon 8500 but actually I had one problem in Counter-Strike. If I used the scope of scoped rifles the game would get into serious lag as if 200ms was added to the game. I don't know why this happened or how it can be possible but that's what happened and the problem was gone as soon as I switched to GF4 MX. This wasn't a big issue for me though since I didn't like the awp or scout anyway.

I bet the TV-out problem was with drivers but all the new drivers I tried, didn't help. Even the introductory of the new Catalyst drivers didn't fix the problem. I think I had the chance to try Catalyst 1.0 & 1.1 before selling the card.

My next upgrade will be GF FX 5700 Ultra as I've been really happy with the GF4 MX. I think I'd stick with this if newer games would support it but some don't and I'm really looking forward to a multiplayer game that doesn't support GF4 MX. (I'm not going to tell which cause then it would look like I was working for nvidia since the game is supported by nvidia.)

If I was 100% sure Ati had fixed the problem I might consider getting one of Ati's cards as they are a bit cheaper compared to performance with Nvidia cards. But then again I'd like to support Nvidia to bring some competition to the market because they're probably a smaller company since Ati has been around for ages. Nvidia is quite of a newcomer as they came to the picture around the introductory of GeForces (5 years ago?). Ati has been around for 10-20 years?
January 12, 2004 2:59:41 PM

You should clarify that this is only for HDTV out, and not regular tv-out.

No dip switches have to be set for regular TV out on Radeons. I've never heard of a B&W problem without HDTV either.

As for my two cents, I've had 3 Ati cards using TV out and they rocked. The one Nvidia card I've had with TV out overscanned strangely.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 3:13:08 PM

I think he's talking about the PAL/NTSC dip switches which are only on SOME cards, and don't need to be set unless you bought a card outside your region. And even then, WTF were you thinking? Just be hapy that there is the option, unlike other Hardware. Many of the cards have replaced the dip switches with the ability to set region in the software packages.

Oh well, once again more of an issue of user error/ignorance or just plan fanboism, rather than any real objective insignt to be gained from that post.

I've had no problem with mine other than I'm too picky to enjoy ANY TV-Out images compared to a nice desktop CRT.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 3:31:50 PM

Pity you degrade your post with insults TheGreatGrapeApe.

Replying to your 1st post (the part where you actually said something):
"Of course you missed adding MAtrox...
...Buy a Matrox card if TV-out is something you care about."

If you are referring to the Matrox RT.X100(Extreme), this is an entirely different solution to getting a high-quality TV OUT.
I am sure you know this, but for those who dont know the Matrox:
The Matrox RT.X100(Extreme) is an add-on card to an existing display card.
"It's ideal for corporate communicators, event videographers, project studios, educational facilities, and digital filmmakers." (Matrox description)

In short:
If you need the TV OUT for professional purposes, then the Matrox solution might be the best. Even though it is very expensive since you need to buy 2 cards. (A primary display card + the Matrox)

If you just need the TV OUT for browsing the web, watching movies, putting cool winamp visuals on for a party or other similar stuff, then it is nice to have a good quality TV OUT in the primary video card (which the comparison of the FX5900 and 9800Pro is about)


Replying to your 2nd post:

The dip switches for PAL/NTSC selection are on the tested Powercolor 9800Pro. (And are set to NTSC by default, no matter where you buy the card)

The B&W problem does not occur with all TV´s. If you check the ATi FAQ on this subject you will find that you are lucky not to have this problem. Some people are less lucky and will not have their TV OUT working properly (ever).

To the last comment you made saying you dont care about TV OUT: then why are you posting in this thread??<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hinter2 on 01/12/04 01:46 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 4:49:08 PM

Pity you degrade your <b>thread</b> and this forum with ignorance and blatant Fanboism.

Quote:
If you are referring to the Matrox RT.X100(Extreme), this is an entirely different solution to getting a high-quality TV OUT.

No the RT-X10 and X100 are more about video IN and editing tools, not so much video out (they recommend tha Parhelia for that perhaps you should have read the description a little closer). For 'TV-out only', a regular Matrox card will do, and still beats both ATI and nVidia, and likely all other newcomers.

The Matrox graphics cards (G-series and the new P-series (including Parhelia) have LONG been THE best, bar none. I'd say even the old cards like my Mystique and my G200TV would beat both the ATI and nVidia cards.

Quote:
In short:

In short.... You have NO Idea WTF you're talking about!

Quote:
If you need the TV OUT for professional purposes, then the Matrox solution might be the best. Even though it is very expensive since you need to buy 2 cards. (A primary display card + the Matrox)

You don't need 2 cards, man you're ignorant. A G200/400/450/550 will all do TV out better than an nVidia card (and likely even an ATI card), and the P650 (less than $150 which is MUCH cheaper than either card YOU listed!), P750 and Parhelia will ll do TV out without an add-on card.

And now more than ever with HDTV it matters very little, but Matrox will give you the best 2D in that field as well. So for ALL types of TV Matrox will give you the best results with just 1 card!

Quote:
If you just need the TV OUT for browsing the web, watching movies, putting cool winamp visuals on for a party or other similar stuff, then it is nice to have a good quality TV OUT in the primary video card (which the comparison of the FX5900 and XP9800Pro is about)

Nah, if you want to do the above MATROX is your BEST solution. The only thing they don't do as well as ATI/nVidia is the one thing YOU yourself omitted and that's gaming. Admitedly the ATI solution would be better for gaming, but if you want TV out there is ONE standard in the industry, and that's MATROX, and the faint 2nd place goes to one of ATI's oem-partners, COLORGRAPHICS. nVidia doesn't even have anything that touches them. And ALL of these products are based on their consumer/pro-sumer solutions.

A bit of advice for you; Don't poke your head out of the sand only to shout your fanboi ignorance at the top of your lungs with a lame post like this. Perhaps then people wouldn't have to make a visual spectacle of your debunking and make you feel 'insulted' at your own ignorance.

Thankfully I doubt anyone will take your BS seriously after all of this.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 5:10:49 PM

Quote:
What happened to me is that I bought Radeon 8500 (1?years ago) and it was ok considering games and TV-out quality was good but it just didn't show the image through TV-out for everything I wanted. Mostly it liked only Media Player and certain file types, not all. Those that didn't show, showed only dark-violet screen in TV instead of the picture (movie) that could be seen on monitor.

Just wondering, did you set the TV as the primary display or the secondary display?
January 12, 2004 5:26:08 PM

Bah. It's too easy to waste our time on the fanbois.

Now that the Nvidiots can non longer claim superiority based on being the best 3d solution, nitpicking obscure BS tv-out claims is the only thing they can do, I guess.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>
January 12, 2004 5:30:41 PM

In reply to TheGreatGrapeApe:

"Pity you degrade your thread and this forum with ignorance and blatant Fanboism."
&
"A bit of advice for you; Don't poke your head out of the sand only to shout your fanboi ignorance at the top of your lungs with a lame post like this. Perhaps then people wouldn't have to make a visual spectacle of your debunking and make you feel 'insulted' at your own ignorance.

Thankfully I doubt anyone will take your BS seriously after all of this."

Quite often insults thrown at someone else hold true for the one screaming them out.

When you talked about the Matrox in your first post, you did not state which one you were talking about. The "In short" is true for the Matrox mentioned by me.

And
To state the obvious:
The comparison of the FX5900 & 9800Pro TV OUT is interesting because both cards have very good 3d capeabilities (with a SLIGHT disadvantage on the nVidia´s side). So if you want good 3d performance + a good TV OUT
than the posted information is interesting.

In case it interests you (it probably doesn´t) this comparison is not based on fantasy, but on an actual test of the 2 cards TV OUTs capeabilities.

It probably also does not interest you that I am working with computers since the good ole C64 came out, so no matter how much & loud you scream I know very well what I am talking about.

Just in case all your screaming and excitement is because part of an ATi card is criticised: Sorry a million times, but when I write about a comparison I can only write what the actual experiences were.

One last word, no matter what reply you post to this:
In a discussion not the one that screams the loudest and insults the most has the better arguments.
January 12, 2004 5:38:41 PM

dip switches? i havent seen those on a video card in a LONG time. black and white by default? are you on crack? last i checked the only extra feature you have with nvidea (that goes for dual displays let alone tv out.) is the ability to have two separate desktops, instead of an extended one. im at a loss for words here, what are you trying to say? oh wait, your just a fan boy, i get it now.

wpdclan.com cs game server - 69.12.5.119:27015
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 5:44:45 PM

Replying to your edit;

First, PC is far from a good guage of nV products, like we've said they would be in fact the lower end of any comparison. Truely the bottom of the barrel for your comparison.

Second, no not all card sdefault to NTSC, it's a common occurance from cheap-ass makers like PC, but many that are Euro (and PAL region) only are defaulted to PAL, and most of the good oem-partners do this too. Check enough forums and you'll find this is a common occurance. And really if you read your user manual (unless PC sucks there too) you will see that they specifically mention that you should check that in the trouble shooting, but obviously reading isn't a strong point for some.

Quote:
To the last comment you made saying you dont care about TV OUT: then why are you posting in this thread??

Simply put, because you don't know $hit about the subject and someone has to expose your ignorance, I felt the need to expose this statement <i>"So if you often use TV OUT dont bother with the Ati, get the nVidia. nVidia might cost a few bucks more, but is definatly worth the money."</i> as complete and utter BS!

Anyone with even failing eyesight would see that under most conditions a Comp. CRT will give you better text and edge definition than any regular TV-out. And the only TV near my computer has an S-vid connector so there's no point in discussing the HDTV properties, in which case Matrox would still have better 2D resolution. I use TV-out on the VERY rare occasion nowadays (I used to use it alot (when I hade my Matrox and AIW cards), but I've found the only TRUE way to guage my final version of a DVD/VCD-burn is to actually play it. And I have enough experience with TV-out to know you're full of crap.

When it comes to TV-out in 2D, Matrox is the BEST choice, and nVidia isn't even a close second!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 6:35:59 PM

"dip switches? i havent seen those on a video card in a LONG time. black and white by default? are you on crack?"

as comment to

"The dip switches for PAL/NTSC selection are on the tested Powercolor 9800Pro. (And are set to NTSC by default, no matter where you buy the card)"

?????? (B&W as default ??? where is that stated ??? - reading seems to be difficult)

Its a true pitty this forum is destroyed by some fanatics.

For those who want to throw mud, please do so in another thread (maybe call it mudthrowing fun or similar - even though I am not sure if a hardware forum is the right place for a thread like this ;) 



FORTUNATLY SOME POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE FACTUAL AND ON TOPIC.

For those wanting to post factual information on TV OUT issues this is a good thread to do so.

So if you have any experiences to post concerning the TV OUTs on the FX5900 or 9800Pro, may they be good or bad no matter... please do so!


To the fanatic mudslingers: You are not welcome here, Go to your mudslinging thread and have fun there!

Puhh... I am glad I am not employed in a kindergarden, they have to deal with this all the time ;) 
January 12, 2004 6:55:14 PM

Quote:
To the fanatic mudslingers: You are not welcome here, Go to your mudslinging thread and have fun there!

Puhh... I am glad I am not employed in a kindergarden, they have to deal with this all the time ;) 

This is especially funny, because in the first sentence you denounce all forms of mudslinging, and in the following you compare someone you disagree with to a child, essentially mudslinging back.

I respectfully suggest that you are full of $hit. but then again, I don't pretend to have a problem with mudslinging.

Nor do I post blatantly one-sided fanboi garbage over and over again on this board. But that's just me.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>
January 12, 2004 7:21:13 PM

Cleeve I am not sure what your last post has to do with TV OUT - nVidia FX5900 vs Ati 9800 Pro?
Your first post was on topic, this one is not.
January 12, 2004 7:24:32 PM

I'm sorry, I must have been understood.

What I was trying to say is that the FX5900 eats your momma's underpants.

Did I clear that up for you?

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>
January 12, 2004 7:26:57 PM

hehe, yes.
And I am glad you dont "post blatantly one-sided fanboi garbage over and over again on this board." ;) 
January 12, 2004 7:30:33 PM

Please point out where I have posted fanboi garbage.

I recommend a blend of Geforce and Radeon products based on price point and application. Check my previous posts. geforces and Radeons are BOTH excellent hardware and both have a place in today's graphics market.

You, on the other hand, have started 3 posts in the last hour that feebly try to slam Ati. I tell you what, if you want to act like a marketing lapdog for Nvidia, we'll treat you like one here at the Toms Hardware Graphics card forums.

And I will counterpoint you just for the sake of argument you brainwashed bufoon.

P.S. To be non-biased, the Radeon 9800XT also ate your momma's underpants.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 7:30:43 PM

Quote:
When you talked about the Matrox in your first post, you did not state which one you were talking about.

Why should I have to? You're writing about graphics cards, not ATI TV-wonder, or nVidia Personal Cinema products. But either way your statement is false. TV-out, MATROX ownz!

Furthermore,need I remind you, this is also the graphics card section not TV/Video capture card section.

Quote:
So if you want good 3d performance + a good TV OUT
than the posted information is interesting.

Stop changing your focus to try and cover your ignorance. You just finished mentioning primarily 2D apps, so don't give me BS about 3D, and if you meant 'then' in your statement, I'd say your posted information is neither interesting nor factual (no evidence).
And fantasy actually seems like a better description of <i>your</i> posts; that and an account of your ineptitude and ignorance.

Quote:
It probably also does not interest you that I am working with computers since the good ole C64 came out,

Right that doesn't interest or impress me since I have been working with computers since before the Commadore P.E.T., Apple ][, IBM PC, and VIC 20 (all of which I have stored at the cottage), on Large VMS and AIX systems @ IBM. Your experience with a crappy computer (basically an overblown gaming console) means nothing, had you said Amiga then it'd prove you at least had your hands on a video editing rig despite likely not knowing what to do with one. My experience with TV/Video and Photography makes me certain that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
so no matter how much & loud you scream I know very well what I am talking about.

I don't need to <b>SCREAM</b> in order to prove that you know very little about this and other video/graphics card subjects, I'll simply let your words prove that for me.

Quote:
In a discussion not the one that screams the loudest and insults the most has the better arguments.

No, but the one who can support his arguments, while at the same time proving the other person's (you) arguments to be baseless tends to have the better arguments.
So far you've simply shown you're too inept to get your cards to work, and you have a tendancy to draw broadstroke conclusion from your very limited experience.

Quote:
To the fanatic mudslingers: You are not welcome here, Go to your mudslinging thread and have fun there!

To you the fanatical nVidiot (seems like an oxymoron, which would be appropriate with the likes of you) perhaps you should go find another forum if this one doesn't suit you. I have a feeling you will not be missed one bit.

One (btw, what you posted bove wasn't a last word, it was a freakin' sentence DumbA$$!) Final Word;

CIAOLA!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 7:36:07 PM

Hey hinter, just wondering where you are getting this information from. Is this with all ATI 9800Pro or with just some? When you say BW with some TVs, what do you mean? Like 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10000, or a particular model?
January 12, 2004 7:53:51 PM

The information on the B&W problem comes from the test of the powercolor 9800pro. When I ran into the problem I was sure it could be fixed, and worked with Ati support on a solution. Unfortunatly we couldnt find any for the TV I was using (Sony 16/9 widescreen - Pal version)
When researching further I found that this is not a one case problem.
However I dont know how high the likelyness of this problem is.
If you want to get a 9800Pro and use TV OUT, its probably a good idea to see if your dealer allows you to try it out and check if it works fine with your TV.
January 12, 2004 8:31:38 PM

So basically you are getting all these "facts" from one experience you had with one PowerColor 9800Pro card?
January 12, 2004 8:43:16 PM

Yes, mostly.

I got myself the FX5900 (from Asus) & the 9800Pro (from Powercolor) and compared these two with focus on TV OUT.

The other sources of information on the powercolor 9800pro B&W problem were the Ati support I had extensive contact with, the official Ati FAQ, and the dealer I got both cards from.
January 12, 2004 8:59:34 PM

Oh I see. Regarding the BW problem, did it happy just on your Sony TV or did you test it out on another TV?
January 12, 2004 9:36:59 PM

*cough*Matrox*cough*

Too bad Grapey said everything I wanted to say :frown: . Save some for me next time!!

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
January 12, 2004 9:44:08 PM

Two things I noticed: 1) at a TV's resolution, the Parhelia with 16x FAA will run all but the newest games pretty well with AMAZING quality, so his point is moot; and 2) he completely turned away from the subject...what an nVidiot (I guess that makes three, whatever).

I know I certainly wouldn't miss him, overly biased idiots aren't useful at all.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
January 12, 2004 9:45:59 PM

I personally only checked on the Sony TV.

The powercolor 9800pro card I used for the comparison is being tested further for faults (concerning the B&W problem) at the moment.

If these tests show the card was malfunctioning in general, I will repeat the TV OUT comparison with another 9800pro.
(Most likely Powercolor brand again & tested on the Sony again)

However it might be some time till I get to check another 9800pro.

If there is honest interest what I may be able to do within the next few days is check how the 9600pro TV OUT performs on the Sony TV and one or two other TVs (not sure which card brand I can get my hands on though)

Again I would do the 9600pro check only if there is honest interest.
If this is just about proving something then I really dont feel like doing another check.
January 12, 2004 10:16:48 PM

I was just curious at your test settings. How exactly did you compare the "color settings" of ATi and Nvidia card when you couldn't get the ATi card to display color? Same goes for the tv out software of both cards. You were never able to get both working, so how did you compare it? Not all ATi products support PAL video output. Are you sure your's supports PAL output?
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 10:24:56 PM

Yep, and if you talk to the Parhelia users they love the Fragment AA. Considering that @ 16XAA the Parhelia plays many games at similar speeds to the R8500 without AA, it's quite a big deal. And when the GF4ti turns on AA it brings it closer in line to the Parhelia's performance.

The thing is against the two primarily 3D gaming cards, the 3D isn't at the same level, but the TV out still looks awesome, and the performance gap wouldn't likely be all that noticeable at such a low resolution except for maybe in games like HALO and such that crunch alot of cards.

As for this thread it's very funny, ut in a Pathos kind of way. One that makes you sorry that people have to read far enough into the post to find out that the original author couldn't even string together anything more than anecdotal drivel. Seriously, Oooohh a Commadore 64 no less, all hail the Chief!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 10:47:10 PM

That Parhelia is looking nicer and nicer...since I generally only game at home, where I have a great TV for gaming. The speed of it is good enough for all but the latest games at that resolution. I could PROBABLY OC it anyway, couldn't I?? The stock HSF is crap...nothing a Zalman HP80C with a nice 80mm fan couldn't make great! I'd take a guess that it scales well too.

I love this thread, it's misinformed nVidiots vs. informed and (occasionally) unbiased people. I really can't say much in terms of what older computers I've used, I'm only 16 and C64, let alone P.E.T. are rare enough these days. IMHO, it means little which older computers anybody has used, unless the conversation directly pertains to it (9800Pro vs. 5900 doesn't).

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
January 12, 2004 11:12:19 PM

concerning the color settings:
On the points I listed in the first post it says for

the powercolor 9800 pro:
"- TV will only show B&W picture (In some cases)...."

and for the asus V9950 Ultra
"- TV color quality is superb...."

This might be a harsh statement, but for the cards I compared it is true.


Concerning the TV OUT software:

Besides the TV OUT B&W problem (and some overheating problems with extensive 3d app useage over time - but that has nothing to do with TV OUT) the powercolor 9800 pro was working fine.

This means there was a picture on the TV with the 9800, just it was B&W. So it was possible to compare 90% of the features of the TV OUT software. (The comparison was between the standard driver software: Catalyst driver (which does not include hydravison) & Forceware Driver(which includes n-view))
I did not check Ati´s Hydravision since it is not included in the standard Catalyst driver download.
As far as I can overlook the thread, nobody mentioned Hydravision by name, but by the outcry about the first post I will have a look at it.

Concerning the PAL video output:
yes the card officially supports PAL (Powercolor statement after checking card ID)
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 12, 2004 11:37:28 PM

I wouldn't expect much of an OC with the parhelia. I haven't seen many even try. If I were you I'd check with the MURC first to see if anyone has had much succes with overclocks.

I woudln't even know which software to use anymore (I have NO idea if Rivatuner or A-tuner would work) May even be locked and make overclocking next to impossible.

Yeah older computers are just that, for nostalgia purpose only IMO. There's alot of younger folk out there who know ALOT more than I do, and I bet some of them have never seen a 5-inch floppy, let alone the 8 and 10 inch ones.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 12, 2004 11:48:48 PM

When I get it (wait, did I just admit it?! :eek:  ), I'll definitely OC that thing...I'm interested to see how well it does.

I'll definitely check out MURC to see what to use and what others' results are.

I've seen those floppies and used them all at least once...but I used the 5-inchers for a few years (well, maybe a couple) when I started getting interested in puters back in Kindergarten and 1st grade--the Apples at school have games on them and I would try to fix the Granny Smith when it didn't work (too frequent). Ahhh, the good ol' days when I didn't have homework or exams.

EDIT: As it turns out, an OCing utility is built into the driver--works off of percentages, though. 220 and 550 are pretty easy to apply percentages...can't wait!
EDIT2: Also turns that Parhelia scales PHENOMENALLY...I guess that chip was underclocked too much :smile: !

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Vapor on 01/12/04 09:08 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 12, 2004 11:54:36 PM

Quote:
This might be a harsh statement, but for the cards I compared it is true.

How can it be true if you couldn't get the card to work? This is obviously a biased "test". Its like comparing an Intel and AMD processor, but you couldn't get the Intel to work. So the AMD wins by default?

If you can't get the card to work properly(for whatever reason), you can't compare the two. In addition only compared a single maker of the two cards(and choose a problematic one for the ATi). Each manufacturer can differ in the quality regarding its products. So how can you say all 5900 TV-Out is better than all 9800 TV-out. Also the BW problem happens only with PAL versions(save the ones that are truly defective). That means people using NTSC do not have this issue. So if you really want to compare the two, you should test several cards from several different manufacturers on an NTSC television.

BTW, I don't care for either ATi nor Nvidia. I like competiton, cheaper prices for me :) 
January 13, 2004 12:12:31 AM

partly agreed.

powercolor is a critical brand for ati graphics cards, and asus is a good producer for nVidia cards.
generalization to all ati cards or all nVidia cards from just testing two brands is cirtical.

i did state which cards were used for comparison in the first post though.
Btw the reason for taking a powercolor ati and an asus nVidia was not to get a biased result, it simply had to do with which cards were available for the test. I dont care who produces the hardware I use in my PCs as long as it performs well and has good quality.
Also you´d probably agree that it is practically impossibble to test all brands of ati and nVidia cards, if you are just testing out of personal interest.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
January 13, 2004 12:14:16 AM

I also find it funy that Hydravision is so foreign considering it is part of the full download package nowadays (basic ever since 3.4).
Included in CAT 3.10:
HydraVision™ 3.25.0006
HydraVision™ Basic Edition 3.25.9006

The basic edition has come with each one since 3.8.

And if one read the instructions for the R9800Pro it appears that they mention the PAL/NTSC issue quite clearly in both the <A HREF="http://www.ati.com/support/products/pc/radeon9800/Getti..." target="_new">Getting Started Guide</A>, and the <A HREF="http://www.ati.com/support/manualpdf/RADEON9800.pdf" target="_new">USER Guide</A>

I guess some people just don't bother to read the manuals when they spend their hard earned money. Hmmm, sounds like user error.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 13, 2004 12:45:44 AM

"And if one read the instructions for the R9800Pro it appears that they mention the PAL/NTSC issue quite clearly in both the Getting Started Guide, and the USER Guide"

Exactly, it says there you will have to set dip switches for pal.

Compare this to my first post:

"- Complex to set up
Dip switches on card have to be set up correctly

- TV will only show B&W picture (In some cases).
Catalyst Driver has compatibility problems with some TV´s. (In some cases this is due to incorrect dip switch settings on the card or wrong driver settigns - both of these cases are correctable by user - in other cases the PROBLEM CAN NOT BE FIXED)"

(Keeping lancerevolution7 comments in mind I must add the B&W problem occured with the tested Powercolor 9800Pro, which might have been defective.)


About Hydravison try the following:

On the ati webpage click on Drivers & Software Tab, then select your operating system, then Graphic driver, then radeon family then go.

You will find included in this package are: Display Driver,Control Panel and WDM Capture driver


I find some of your other posts in this thread quite interesting - talking about the matrox to be specific - but whenever we reply to each other seems to lead to nothing.
Its probably better if we just ignore each other, keeps this thread more factual.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hinter2 on 01/12/04 10:09 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 13, 2004 1:06:06 AM

I never said you should test every brand. Your test is obviously biased toward Nvidia.

- PAL is said clearly to be problematic while using TV-Out of ATi cards. While this may be problematic for you, it is not for NTSC people.

- You've picked a manufacturer that is known to have lots of issues regarding their cards for ATi and choose a top notch brand for Nvidia. Why not use Asus for both?

- You've only tested ONE card. You never mentioned RMAing the card. So the ATi could have been defective from the start.

- Assuming that the card is not defective, you've still only test ONE card. How can you determine a whole batch with one card? Not saying you should test ALL the cards, it should be at least 3 or 4 from each manufacturer like most reviewers.

- If it is for personal use, you should not generalize all cards from both manufacturers. From your title you make it sound like you did a thourogh test with many of the cards.

- Your tests did not include a featured software of ATi, Hydrovision. Also you never go the card to be working in the first place. How do you compare the color aspects without color?
January 13, 2004 1:07:47 AM

hitler2,
When you reply to a post, there is a link that teaches how to use markup...please read it, so that you can quote people properly on this forum.
Seeing how bright you are, it's no wonder you cant get your video cards to work properly.

<b>I help because you suck</b>
January 13, 2004 1:48:25 AM

I guess I stumbled into a hornets nest here. Ah well who cares.

lancerevolution7 at first thought was good talking to you, till your last post.
just setting up a little trap with your previous posts were you?

Oh and sorry GeneticWeapon, but simply dont feel like following on your hint...


Here we go, very last reply to lancerevolution7:

"- You've picked a manufacturer that is known to have lots of issues regarding their cards for ATi and choose a top notch brand for Nvidia. Why not use Asus for both?"

Said this in the previous reply, I used the cards that were availabele for testing (that simple)


"- You've only tested ONE card. You never mentioned RMAing the card. So the ATi could have been defective from the start."

Said this in a previous reply as well... the powercolor 9800pro IS being checked for defects at the moment.


"- Assuming that the card is not defective, you've still only test ONE card. How can you determine a whole batch with one card? Not saying you should test ALL the cards, it should be at least 3 or 4 from each manufacturer like most reviewers."

Repeating what I said above once more - I used the cards that were availabele for testing (that simple)


"- If it is for personal use, you should not generalize all cards from both manufacturers. From your title you make it sound like you did a thourogh test with many of the cards."

Posted this before as well, I have no problem admitting you are right in this point: - AGREED -


"- Your tests did not include a featured software of ATi, Hydrovision. Also you never go the card to be working in the first place. How do you compare the color aspects without color?"

The color aspects WERE NOT COMPARED due to the powercolor card only displaying B&W.



And saving the best for last - I guess this is very interesting to all ppl with PAL TVs (and its from someone unbiased not like nasty me;)


"- PAL is said clearly to be problematic while using TV-Out of ATi cards. While this may be problematic for you, it is not for NTSC people."

PAL is TV standard in pretty much all of europe and some other countries... as far as I know there is quiet a few people living there.....


Over and OUT
January 13, 2004 4:16:39 AM

"Just wondering, did you set the TV as the primary display or the secondary display?"

Didn't know how to quote that properly so I just put the text to quotation marks..

Well, I put it as secondary display.. If I had put it as primary games would've probably shown on TV (?) which in most cases I would've not wanted..
January 13, 2004 4:37:39 AM

"Now that the Nvidiots can non longer claim superiority based on being the best 3d solution, nitpicking obscure BS tv-out claims is the only thing they can do, I guess."

LOL!

That's exactly actually why I bought the Radeon 8500..
Everyone said that Radeons have better TV-out & monitor picture but also more driver problems than GeForces. Though I guess most of the driver problems were gone by the time I bought mine, people were still talking about them. Atleast I didn't encounter any problems (like white walls on some games as some people talked about).

I don't care what card holds the #1 place in the graphics war, I just want a card that's afforable & comes with working features. Radeons might be a bit cheaper but I'd rather spend 10% more on a card to be 100% sure all the features work that I NEED and to support smaller companies that bring some competition to market to keep the prices low.

As you're talking about best 3d solution, why don't you have Radeon 9800 XT. Isn't that the best card available? Atleast for games.

Btw. I don't think you should post in threads where people talk about TV-out if you don't care about it at all.
January 13, 2004 2:08:20 PM

That is why your TV didn't show anything but a purple screen. Its not a problem. You could just switch is when you want to watch movies.
!